Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Lago PARANOIA]

Yes but the rest of the Bloodline is awful so you suck for 15 levels. Claws, inherent strength bonuses, maybe 1 feat you might actually want to take and a bonus spell list with perhaps two spells on it you might actually want. I could see a Summoner cherry picking this with the Eldritch Chain fets but I would never take it as a sorcerer.

Hey, no disagreement here. I don't think that being Summon Monster whore is exactly the best use of your class resources. The point is that a Pathfinder sorcerer specifically focused for summoning can outclass a summoner out of the low levels.

It only allows you to use divine spells but yeah definately a strong effect.

It gives you access to the Summon Nature's Ally chain, which gives you access to giants. Yes, I would like a Pathfinder cyclops for various stupid cheese loops or a plain ol' ettin for vanilla damage.

Nope, you cant get it. Sacred Summons is only available if you have the Aura class feature, so pretty much limited to just clerics. It does potentially make clerics the best of the bunch when summoning as 1 round cast times are horrible and animals on the summon lists gain your alignment type regardless of their own alignment.

I was going to recommend Imbue with Aura, but it doesn't last long enough. I thought it was an hour/level, not minute/level.

[andreww]

The Abyssal bloodline has a level 15 feature that lets you summon an extra critter whenever you summon a fiend. There is a robe that lets you count as 4 levels higher for the purposes of your bloodline. There is a feat (Supreme Summons) that let you dump an extra summon onto the board whenever you summon more than one.

The Sorcerer has access to the Contingency spell.

Also, this doesnt work:

The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person and be of a spell level no higher than one-third your caster level (rounded down, maximum 6th level).

Even if it did I am doubtful about the utility of dropping 1 dire wolf, 1d3+1 leopards or 1d4+2 giant spiders on the board at level 12 over say getting Greater Invisibility or Haste up as a free action.

[MGuy]

What can a Sorcerer do that a Summoner can not summoning wise?

The Abyssal bloodline has a level 15 feature that lets you summon an extra critter whenever you summon a fiend. There is a robe that lets you count as 4 levels higher for the purposes of your bloodline. There is a feat (Supreme Summons) that let you dump an extra summon onto the board whenever you summon more than one.

The Sorcerer has access to the Contingency spell.

The Sorcerer archetype Razmiran(sp?) priest, that at level 8 onwards lets you use spell completion/trigger items without expending a charge or item as long as you expend a spell slot of equal or greater value.

There is yet another feat that lets you cast summon monster as a standard action as long as the summoned creature matches your alignment component. In case you're concerned about having to be a certain alignment to summon certain kinds of fiends, don't -- keep the above caveat in mind and UMD.

As icing on the cake, a human sorcerer gets an extra spell known per level.

I'm sure you can connect the dots.

I'm too inept to do so I suppose. I get that Contingency is good. That the Raz thing is... interesting... and that you can fuck around with UMD. but I fail to see why being able to screw around with UMD makes the sorcerer that much of a bigger deal than the summoner. Screwing around with UMD while cute isn't something I'd say makes it so that the Summoner might as well not show up for class. They have a no cost pocket fighter (kicks ass at low levels) that they can trick out to be a UMD whore. Whatever. all you've said (as far as I can tell) is that Summoner is not one of the best classes in the game. To which I say "so what?".

If you want me to believe that the class is "not good" then you have to explain to me how it isn't good. So far all I can gather is you're saying "It's not the best" to which I would say "So what?".

[andreww]

I was going to recommend Imbue with Aura, but it doesn't last long enough. I thought it was an hour/level, not minute/level.

Hmm, would this work? It says the persons radiates your Aura for the duration which is identical to your own. The feat requires you to have the Aura class feature to even take it. It would be nice if it did, would certainly help out the Orcale as they dont get Aura and so cant take Sacred Summons.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Affect isn't defined in 3E D&D. If it said target that would be one thing, but affect? Pretty much any spell can 'affect' you ... I don't feel like getting into Named Bullet shenanigans again, though. So whatever, let's concede the point.

That the Raz thing is... interesting... and that you can fuck around with UMD. but I fail to see why being able to screw around with UMD makes the sorcerer that much of a bigger deal than the summoner. Screwing around with UMD while cute isn't something I'd say makes it so that the Summoner might as well not show up for class. They have a no cost pocket fighter (kicks ass at low levels) that they can trick out to be a UMD whore. Whatever. all you've said (as far as I can tell) is that Summoner is not one of the best classes in the game. To which I say "so what?".

Before the Sacred Summons loop got closed (though I'll look around for a bit to see if it can be re-opened) the point was to put the Summon Monster spells on a spell complete item like a scroll, use UMD to emulate a particular alignment, then crap out summoned monsters.

[Lago PARANOIA]

The feat requires you to have the Aura class feature to even take it.

The prerequisite is 'aura class feature' not 'aura as a class feature'. Since Imbue With Aura gives you an aura identical to the cleric, you would qualify.

The problem is that even if you could select the feat (and I can think of ways that a half-elf, half-orc, or human could unambiguously get within the time window) it only lasts for 1 minute/level. Not long enough really to be worth the hassle.

[Juton]

This is provisional, but I think a Summoner can also take Supreme Summons. They can take Augment Summons and I think (Sp) abilities in Pathfinder can be affected by feats/metamagic that don't increase spell slot used. So spellfocus is supposed to work with (Sp).

Doesn't change much in the Summoner discussion but is interesting to know.

[Lago PARANOIA]

If you want me to believe that the class is "not good" then you have to explain to me how it isn't good. So far all I can gather is you're saying "It's not the best" to which I would say "So what?".

The 'so what' is so why does this class need to be in the game? Classes that are weaker than the summoner like the warmage, warblade, BoED bard, and rogue exist but they at least do things that you could potentially care about both conceptually and mechanically.

What unique flavor or tool or mathhammer does the summoner bring to the table? The only thing that a summoner really has going for it is that they get to have a token that's moderately more powerful than a vanilla pathfinder druid animal companion (yes, Pathfinder buffed animal companions) that aren't subject towards hazy 'this doesn't feel right' DM vetoes like planar binding, undead creation, leadership, etc.. That is a benefit since a lot of groups freak out over extra tokens on the board unless they're explicitly instantiated, but I'm not particularly impressed.

I'd like to point out that a cleric can get two animal companions of their level if they're willing to set fire to their domain features and a feat, by the way.

[Juton]

So we know that prepared casters are more powerful than both spontaneous casters and melee classes. Paizo has addressed this by adding (at least) two new magic items that lets spontaneous classes cast spells from a written source. One is a robe that can be used once a day on any level of spell, for just 5K. The other is a set of ring that actually adds the spell to your known list, maybe even from different class lists but only for spells leveled 1-4.

Who knows, maybe Pathfinder will actually succeed in balancing 3.5?

[MGuy]

If you want me to believe that the class is "not good" then you have to explain to me how it isn't good. So far all I can gather is you're saying "It's not the best" to which I would say "So what?".

The 'so what' is so why does this class need to be in the game? Classes that are weaker than the summoner like the warmage, warblade, BoED bard, and rogue exist but they at least do things that you could potentially care about both conceptually and mechanically.

What unique flavor or tool or mathhammer does the summoner bring to the table? The only thing that a summoner really has going for it is that they get to have a token that's moderately more powerful than a vanilla pathfinder druid animal companion (yes, Pathfinder buffed animal companions) that aren't subject towards hazy 'this doesn't feel right' DM vetoes like planar binding, undead creation, leadership, etc.. That is a benefit since a lot of groups freak out over extra tokens on the board unless they're explicitly instantiated, but I'm not particularly impressed.

I'd like to point out that a cleric can get two animal companions of their level if they're willing to set fire to their domain features and a feat, by the way.

So your question is what does it get that's unique?

Eidolon, No extra cost to get it, and as you indicated it doesn't raise a red flag by getting it. Spell-like Summon that lasts for minutes. Focus on summoning stuff without having to trick out the class to do so. Eidolon related shenanigans.

To top it all off, as far as I can tell, it can handle all levels of play. Again your contention is that since it is not one of the best it shouldn't exist. I'd rank this class with Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, etc because this is a caster, it has a focus and it can handle all levels of the game. There is nothing "bad" about this class. It is a "good" class and you have yet to tell me why it isn't that. We all know that Clerics/Wizards can get a bunch of shit if you search in enough books for it. Really I think that the power level of those classes is a problem and isn't something that needs to be repeated with every new class.

Those are things that other classes don't get. UMD tricks do not impress me.

[virgil]

Updated on the character. The eidolon build, as far as I'm aware, cannot be replicated by a caster.

For the Summoner

The Gyoji
Half-Elf Summoner 15, 20pb
HD 15d8+60 (131hp)
Ability Scores: 7, 12, 18, 10, 10, 29
BAB +11
AC 11 (+1 Dex)
Saves +5/+5/+9
Feats: Extra Evolution x4, Improved Share Spells (Share w/both, half duration), Resilient Eidolon (Stays for 15 rounds if owner killed), Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning
Skills: Spellcraft +18, Use Magic Device +27
Spells/Day (8/7/7/6/5; DC 19+SL)
Spells Known (6/6/6/5/4/4)
1st - Enlarge Person, Mage Armor, Reduce Person
2nd - See Invisibility, Summon Eidolon
3rd - Dimensional Anchor, Charm Monster, Invisibility (Greater), Magic Circle Against Evil
4th - Evolution Surge (Greater), Magic Jar, Baleful Polymorph
5th - Planar Binding, True Seeing
Equipment (240k): Cloak of Resistance +5 (25k*), Permanent Magic Fang +5 (8k*), Headband of Alluring Charisma +6 (36k), Belt of Giant Strength +6 (36k), Normal Metamagic Rod of Extend (11k), Eyes of the Eagle (2.5k*), Amulet of Natural Armor +2 (8k), Ring of Protection +5 (50k*), Ring of Invisibility (20k*), Magically Reinforced Steel Coffin (inner lock), Wand of Silent Image (.75k), Bribe Money (42.25k)
Adventuring Assumptions: Up to a week prior to any adventuring, perform an extended binding on four separate monsters (glabrezu, shadow demon, X, X) and use an extended charm monster or two on some easily controlled brute; which can be done over the span of like one or two days. I am presuming that you only charm stuff that doesn't give XP under 3E rules, so CR 7 monsters will be your body-fodder (invisible stalker presumed at this point). The day prior, cast an extended mage armor on your eidolon & an extended magic jar, then enter the body of the invisible stalker you charmed. Now you're ready to go forth and slaughter everything.

For the Eidolon

Andre the literal Giant
TN Huge Outsider (enlarge person presumed below)
Speed: 30' fly (perfect)
HD 12d10+60 (126hp)
Init +6, Senses Perception +20, Darkvision 60'
AC 44 (+27 natural, +4 armor, +2 Dex, -4 size, +5 Deflection)
* CMB +37 (+45 grapple)
* CMD 47 (49 grapple)
Attacks: 2 claws +29 (2d6+21)
Saves Fort +18, Ref +11, Will +13 (+4 vs enchantment, Improved Evasion)
Abilities: Str 42, Dex 14, Con 21, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Skills: Perception +20, Use Magic Device +15, Stealth +5, Diplomacy +15
Feats: Imp Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple, Lunge, Improved Initiative, Rapid Grappler
Evolutions: Huge, Perfect Flight, Spell Resistance, Grab, Improved Natural Armor x3, Fast Heal 1

And now, let's get ready to rrrumble with some SGT goodness.
Marut: There's a conversion of it here. As it turns out, it's not very good at stealthing up to anything, but it has awesome stealth-detection powers with that true seeing and +26 Perception. On the whole, both parties will recognize the other, but it's initiative is appreciably lower, it needs to a natural 20 to get past the eidolon's SR, & a natural 17 to hit with its fists. The eidolon, however, is going to auto-grapple/pin, and the concentration DC is solidly in the realm of laughing while it's curb-stomped to death.
Conugon: Very similar principle to the marut, except the lack of true seeing gives us the element of surprise and the glabrezu's own sight gives us an excellent forward element. Impossible to evade the grapple, slowly beaten into a pulp in which it will take weeks to regenerate into consciousness from, and its +1 unholy spiked chain sold for money.
Pair of Glabrezus: Really? We've already got one in our own party, potentially three, and that's before we even bring in Andre the Giant.
Mature Black Dragon: Switching out the color due to CR changes to Pathfinder. The only thing that can even touch Andre is the dragon's breath weapon, which is doing ~12 damage on average (25 avg on a failed save), which is plenty of time for everyone to continue the curbstomp.
Score of Dire Bears: They have 5' reach, and Andre has 15' reach while flying without buffs. This is harvesting.
Cloud Giant Keg Party: None of their attacks are hitting unless they get a natural 20 (same goes for grappling escape), they can't see us coming, and don't even have darkvision. We're going goddamn Batman on these guys. The shadow demon can take them by himself.
Mansion of Succubi Bunnies: Impenetrable SR, inability to see invisible. Yeah, our summoner is likely to just magic jar one and have a pillow fight until they get suspicious, then Andre walks in and uses his huge...Diplomacy skill.
Pair of Beholders: While their eye beams are supernatural and thus don't deal with Andre's SR, the DCs are in black swan territory. Even were they to kill Andre this way, there's a 75% success chance of one being possessed by The Gyoji and finishing each other off. This is without taking into account summoned backup.
Gelugon & Iron Golem tag team: With the same lack of the ability to see invisible, while our glabrezu acts as scout and cannon fodder, Andre is still jumping in while the iron golem is boxed in with an illusory box by one of the other summons or even The Gyoji with a spare wand of silent image. Even presuming it got an attack in, it's not capable of one-rounding Andre.

We've got 9 creatures off of the list so far, and every single one is a hat trick of defeat. Less than half of them even use The Gyoji or his bound fiends to join in as more than cheerleaders. The Same Game Test could literally look like the Monk's training montage of failure for the rest of this, and we'd still be at 50% success rate and thus passing the test as balanced. As it stands, I'm going to guess the summoner won't suffer catastrophic brain damage and only gets mediocre results at best for the rest of the SGT; which gives us a very rough approximation of 60% to 80%+. This is proper wizard territory.

We've still got over 40k worth of gear to spend on weak spots, half of the Gyoji's spells to be picked out, and I'm not even efreeti wish spamming for inherent bonuses or simulacrum abuse. So as far as casting goes, the summoner is set and has level appropriate casting of spells with intense flexibility out-of-combat and level-appropriate in-combat. The eidolon is essentially a level-appropriate fighter, who I'm certain is better at grappling than any PC could hope to become or even get through planar binding.

[Kaelik]

Your adventuring assumptions are fucking retarded.

Hey guys, I can beat a CR 15 enemy if I have four of the best CR 13 monsters for free every fight.

Yes, you and a Rogue with UMD and infinite wealth, no one gives a shit that that the Summoner can cast Planar Binding. If Planar binding is allowed to do that, be a Wizard and do the same thing, because what you write on your character sheet is irrelevant since everyone just plays four CR 13 monsters, and if it's not allowed to do that, you can't do that.

[virgil]

Your adventuring assumptions are fucking retarded.

Hey guys, I can beat a CR 15 enemy if I have four of the best CR 13 monsters for free every fight.

Did you read the fvcking test notes? I ended up using just one glabrezu as bait in two of the fights, because they weren't fvcking needed. And the times when I did use the glabrezu, the summoner could've just cast true seeing on himself. As it stands, he could've summoned and bound at least two glabrezu that morning and still have decent allotment of spells at every spell level; and if not even that counts, then you're saying the test doesn't count because a spellcaster has spells. Hell, he could've walked forward shrouded in illusion & guarded by Charlie's Enrinyes w/their own true seeing to get a long enough breather to cast summon dextrous Andre to finish the job.

[ishy]

The Sorcerer archetype Razmiran(sp?) priest, that at level 8 onwards lets you use spell completion/trigger items without expending a charge or item as long as you expend a spell slot of equal or greater value.

It only allows you to use divine spells but yeah definately a strong effect.

Actually you need to expend a spell slot at least 1 higher. So I'm not seeing how this is so much better than just WBL. Sure you don't have to wait till you're compensated, but you do spend a higher level spell slot.

I'd like to point out that a cleric can get two animal companions of their level if they're willing to set fire to their domain features and a feat, by the way.

I don't think so, unless I missed something. You can't gain multiple animal companions unless it is specifically called out (like in packlord or whatever that druid archtype is called).
It says so in the druid nature's bond feature, if you gain from multiple sources they stack instead of gaining multiples. I do believe I read somewhere that they stack to a max of druid level, but am not sure of that.

[Kaelik]

Your adventuring assumptions are fucking retarded.

Hey guys, I can beat a CR 15 enemy if I have four of the best CR 13 monsters for free every fight.

Did you read the fvcking test notes? I ended up using just one glabrezu as bait in two of the fights, because they weren't fvcking needed. And the times when I did use the glabrezu, the summoner could've just cast true seeing on himself. As it stands, he could've summoned and bound at least two glabrezu that morning and still have decent allotment of spells at every spell level; and if not even that counts, then you're saying the test doesn't count because a spellcaster has spells. Hell, he could've walked forward shrouded in illusion & guarded by Charlie's Enrinyes w/their own true seeing to get a long enough breather to cast summon dextrous Andre to finish the job.

I said your adventuring assumptions are stupid because they are stupid. I did not say that any part of your SGT was or was not invalidated by that, because I don't give a Monkey Fuck.

But don't fucking write stupid Adventuring Assumptions if they invalidate the entire concept of adventuring. No one takes Leadership for their feats in SGTs either, because it's stupid.

Also, no, the ability to spend money to cast True Seeing does not make up for having a pet with True Seeing all the time. Having True Seeing all the time allows you to not be surprised, being able to cast it allows you to respond to surprise. I don't care whether or not that changes the result, because I don't care about the Summoner or a SGT of him, but as I said before, don't write that you assume you are going to have 4 CR 13 monsters at no cost all day every day when you are trying to judge the balance of anything.

[deaddmwalking]

The 'so what' is so why does this class need to be in the game? Classes that are weaker than the summoner like the warmage, warblade, BoED bard, and rogue exist but they at least do things that you could potentially care about both conceptually and mechanically.

What unique flavor or tool or mathhammer does the summoner bring to the table?

So, the answer should be get rid of the classes that do everything and replace them with classes like the summoner. It has a consistent flavor and does what it's supposed to do reasonably well. If there are other classes that do that same thing BETTER, than maybe they're the ones that should be removed.

[Seerow]

Why the fuck to people say "fvck" on a forum without word censors where absolutely nobody cares about cursing? That has to be the stupidest thing I have seen.

[Whipstitch]

It used to be filtered.

/TRADITION

[Username17]

Why the fuck to people say "fvck" on a forum without word censors where absolutely nobody cares about cursing? That has to be the stupidest thing I have seen.

It has automatic word censors that go after certain things like naggers. The people here sure as fuck don't care about "fuck", but when the latest software was first installed it used a default censor list. There was a whole hilarious time when the admins couldn't figure out how to take things out of the censor list, so it was auto-censoring all kinds of shit. People were using "fvck" as a stopgap measure until the admins could get the censor list updated. It was hilarious.

And now, sometimes people who've been around since the software update temporarily took our fucking away will bust into "fvck" for old times sake. Really old timers will sometimes use "tj" instead of "ch". That has to do with a reaction to some rather ugly racism on the official WotC board in 2001.

---

Virgil, your entire setup is incredibly bullshit and you should be ashamed of yourself. Almost all of this boils down to "if I am allowed to do some of the incredibly dubious things with Planar Binding and Magic Jar which Wizards can also do and which the entire point of the class is supposedly to be able to get by without, then you can beat monsters. This is horseshit. If you could Planar Binding and Charm Monster to render D&D challenges meaningless, then D&D challenges are meaningless and there are no valid SGTs after level 9.

Here, I'll highlight a core problem with your concept:

Score of Dire Bears: They have 5' reach, and Andre has 15' reach while flying without buffs. This is harvesting.

WRONG!

• Your Eidolon can indeed swoop around and backscratch the Dire Bears to death (except you know, not, because Dire Bears have a 10' space and only need a 5' high jump to attack the Eidolon), he can't do so in remotely enough time to keep the dire bears from shredding your actual character. Those things will fucking rip your character in half. You can charm or jar them one at a time, but there's pretty much nothing you can do to keep the other 19 from running over and mauling you to death. You have an AC of 15 and 131 hit points. Your Eidolon would do way better using his very high armor class to soak up actual attacks from the bears. But even so he just doesn't take up enough space to keep the remaining bears from encircling and destroying your main character.

Looking at your writeup, I'm pretty severely unimpressed. Your combats against pretty much everything are "I die and then my Eidolon spends the next 15 rounds tearing shit up and either lives or doesn't". That's fucking awful. If you aren't allowed to use encounter obviating Wizard-cheese, you don't win. And if you are allowed to use encounter obviating Wizard-cheese, then even the class' proponents admit that the Summoner class is completely pointless.

-Username17

[Juton]

With regards to the Dire Bears, Overland Flight, Teleport and Greater Invisibility are all spells the Summoner can cast. An Eidolon is smart enough that a Summoner can just command him to start the killing and then bugger off to get ice cream for a few minutes while the Eidolon gets down to business.

[Username17]

With regards to the Dire Bears, Overland Flight, Teleport and Greater Invisibility are all spells the Summoner can cast. An Eidolon is smart enough that a Summoner can just command him to start the killing and then bugger off to get ice cream for a few minutes while the Eidolon gets down to business.

Maybe, but while the Summoner can pull out all that jazz, Virgil's Summoner only has Greater Invisibility. And let's be honest: Greater Invisibility is not much of a protection against horde enemies in Pathfinder. Especially if you have zero ranks of Stealth, as Virgil's sample character does.

-Username17

[virgil]

The eidolon has lunge for 20' reach, so unless the bears gained pogo-sticks...

I don't know what other option there is if the summoner can't use his spells to survive combat; no magic jar while in a carriage/coffin being pulled around to look out the window or no planar binding for even one monster to do lookout.

Show me how it's done. Because I obviously svck at this and haven't been able to do one fvcking thing right at anything I've done or created on this board in years; possibly ever.

[MGuy]

Virgil, your write up is missing the Summon Monster SLAs, Life Link, and maybe some other stuff I may be forgetting. Does your summooner actually summon help ever or does he just rely on planar bindings and the eidolon? Summoning some fodder I think would be nice to help over come certain challenges. Also I don't think necessitating the use of these odd tactics makes the summoner look good. If I have the time I'll look over the prd tomorrow and check it out.

[Lago PARANOIA]

So, the answer should be get rid of the classes that do everything and replace them with classes like the summoner. It has a consistent flavor and does what it's supposed to do reasonably well. If there are other classes that do that same thing BETTER, than maybe they're the ones that should be removed.

That is a completely acceptable, interesting, and dare I say better solution to the four sisters problem.

However, that might be too much change for a 3.5E kitbash. On the other hand, Pathfinder hasn't exactly been shy about nerfing or changing things willy-nilly and they DEFINITELY haven't been shy about quietly retconning things that don't fit the new Pathfinder paradigm. So who knows.

Idea for Pathfinder v2.0 anyway.

[Mask_De_H]

I understand not being as good as the full casters (Bard casting, lack of flexibility), but saying they're shit?

Here's an analogy: imagine if someone published a 3.5E cleric class that handed out a bonus feat every four levels but you were permanently a spell level behind starting at level 4. It'd still be pretty level appropriate but there's no reason to play it out of the low levels over a cleric. Except for the bonus feats it doesn't do anything special.

That's why I'm declaring the class shit. Even in a party of the four sisters there are minor reasons to play a kited-out warblade, rogue, warmage, or even bard. There is absolutely no reason to play a summoner past level 6 if you're allowed to play any of the original primary spellcasters.

This shouldn't be news to anyone, but the 'tricks' that a summoner get like 'breaking the action economy' and 'teleport, magic jar, AND planar binding'? You can get all of that by being a straight sorcerer. Getting to cast summon monster as a standard action that lasts for minutes is pretty nice, but wizards and sorcerers get tricks with summon monster that contemptuously eclipse it. Not least that they can use race and class features that plunder that very spell off of the summoner list and give them the finger.

The long, quickie Summon Monster thing is a class ability, but I get what you're saying with that Ramizran Priest setup. However...

[*] Summoners also get UMD and have Cha as their money stat so they can abuse it like a Sorc. With how item creation rules work now, trading a slot for a use isn't that world-shattering of an ability.
[*] The "standard action alignment summon feat" is Sacred Summons, and requires a Cleric aura. RamPriest doesn't grant a Cleric aura.
[*] Superior Summoning only requires Augment Summoning and CL 3. Summoners can do it too.
[*] Anybody with a good Cha and a willingness to burn feats (a more reasonable prospect in PF) can poach a Bloodline. You can't game it with Robes of Arcane Heritage if you do that, though.

The Summoner can do all but one of the Sorcerer's summon tricks by level 11. If you want to get the dick out your mouth and make a case, use that Drow Sorc that got posted a while back. Or the Wizard's True Name trick on a Conjuration spec Wizard (for the minute per level summons). The summoner Cleric beats all the arcane summoners' asses thanks to Evangelist, Void/Glory domain and Sacred Summons but I'm not seeing this "contemptuous eclipsing" from the Wiz and Sorc in the Summoner's domain.

A Master Summoner loses their beatstick for an Improved Familiar but gains unparalleled token output. I personally think the pocket beatstick/Improved Familiar+ at 1st, double-tapping token vomit, contingent defense and teleports beat a feat every four levels. Being able to keep up with the Joneses in a single, strong field while also getting their fuck you abilities is a good place to be. That's a good enough reason to roll Summoner. If you say the fucking warmage has minor reasons to exist but pooh-pooh the Summoner I don't even know.

You haven't made a definitive case; virgil inadvertently made your case for you by sucking so hard. If it weren't for that, this whole conversation would just be another one of your weird personal quirks/fetishes getting rubbed the wrong way. It still pretty much is, but you may be right for once.

Anyway, anyone copped that Paths of Prestige book yet? Is it on the SRD?

I own it. As in, a legitimate copy. There's not much worth talking about in the book. The Hellknight is marginally superior to taking cleric levels if you're not worried about domain abilities. If you want to play a gish it's pretty okay, too. You get full-casting, come in at level 5, 3/4ths BAB, and an ASF chance reduction. Certainly better than Eldritch Knight.

The Veiled Illusionist is OMG boss for a blaster cleric, though. You get a list of so-so sundry buffs but the real kicker is that every level in the prestige class you get to pick an sor/wiz illusionist spell of your choice as a spell known.

None of the other prestige classes are really worth talking about. They either require a substantial feat investment, cause you to lose caster levels, or require you dropping out of one of those lucrative (for Pathfinder non-casters) archetypes early. I'll take another look though.

What's the Veiled Illusionist got that makes it good for blasting? Being able to poach spells from other lists is always nice.