Making a Tome game and...

Sajber · Post by **Sajber** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:02 pm

I guess I'll be making a charsheet myself, then. Did it for another system a while ago, it wasn't really that hard. I was just hoping somebody might have beaten me to it!

As for chargen taking longer time... We haven't actually started playing yet, but I've given the players my own "player's handbook" (which is basically C&P of the various Tomes, the Tome PDF, threads on TGD, the 3.5 SRD, some flavour changes [I don't like the Samurai flavour] and lots of tables and layout fixes). I wanted something that contains just the rules, and not all the other material in the Tomes, as fascinating as it is. They are quite eager to get started, even the ones who aren't that rules-savvy or inclined to read everything there is. I did consciously provide a "basic combat rules" sections for those players (3 or 4 pages) as well as the full rules. What I think might take time is actually deciding on a class and feats.

I do have some more questions that have arisen. Some more background would be that this is going to be a West March-styled game (maybe I mentioned it before, I don't remember), with heavy emphasis on random encounters and, well, EVERYTHING being more or less random (excluding static locations, dungeons, etc.). I started making some encounter tables for the "starter" areas, which seems easy enough, but then I got to the point to where I actually have to figure out the (to me, now) hard parts, i.e. treasure and drops. I've been using the tables in the DMG so far, and I guess it feels kind of good, but how do they work in a Tome game? Should I change them in some way (other than the obvious changes to magic properties, I mean) to make them more Tome compatible, or are they otherwise fine?

Another thing that I'm slightly miffed about is HP. I've always felt that the unlucky playing rolling badly suffers in a way that just seems unfair, statistics or not. I prefer stats that don't rely on luck (I use point-buy for attributes). Is there a way to do this for HP? I'm thinking of doing the 4th-edition thing of having everybody getting max HP for the first level, and then maybe a guaranteed half their HD in HP + another half random (so a HD d8 = 4 + 1d4).

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:55 pm

Sajber wrote:Another thing that I'm slightly miffed about is HP. I've always felt that the unlucky playing rolling badly suffers in a way that just seems unfair, statistics or not. I prefer stats that don't rely on luck (I use point-buy for attributes). Is there a way to do this for HP? I'm thinking of doing the 4th-edition thing of having everybody getting max HP for the first level, and then maybe a guaranteed half their HD in HP + another half random (so a HD d8 = 4 + 1d4).

Starting on max HP at first level is a 3e thing too. I let my players roll, then they can choose to take the roll or the average of the dice (rounded up). So a Cleric rolls a D8, then could choose the result or 4. It meant that max hp was still as rare, but evened out the low rolls and meant rolling a 1 wasn't a disaster.

Sajber wrote:I started making some encounter tables for the "starter" areas, which seems easy enough, but then I got to the point to where I actually have to figure out the (to me, now) hard parts, i.e. treasure and drops. I've been using the tables in the DMG so far, and I guess it feels kind of good, but how do they work in a Tome game? Should I change them in some way (other than the obvious changes to magic properties, I mean) to make them more Tome compatible, or are they otherwise fine?

To be honest, I've been reviewing the DMG tables and they seem to give a reasonable amount of magic items at most levels, assuming scaling items. The biggest thing is that the gold and gems become worthless at about level 10, but the game still thinks they're a big deal. Depending on how you're doing items that could be a problem, but probably isn't because scaling items mean you need less to spend on incremental upgrades. I'd say they're fine to work with, just have to alter whatever item comes out to match Tome sensibilities. On this note I'm planning on running a more free-form game next so I'm doing some work on Tome item rules, drops, crafting in general and magic item creation and acquisition at the moment. I might post them in IMOI when they're in a useable state.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:34 am

Uh, the average of a d8 rounded down is five, not four. Which one do you mean?

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:16 am

Korgan0 wrote:Uh, the average of a d8 rounded down is five, not four. Which one do you mean?

floor(4.5) = 4

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:47 am

Sorry, brain fart. I said rounded up, I meant rounded down.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:41 pm

You mean you said rounded down, and meant rounded up?

Sajber · Post by **Sajber** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:13 pm

Red_Rob wrote: Starting on max HP at first level is a 3e thing too. I let my players roll, then they can choose to take the roll or the average of the dice (rounded up). So a Cleric rolls a D8, then could choose the result or 4. It meant that max hp was still as rare, but evened out the low rolls and meant rolling a 1 wasn't a disaster.

Ah, great, I'll definitely use that!

Another question is about starting equipment. What is a good way to handle giving out starting equipment? My aim for this game is that gold should really, really matter in the lower levels, i.e. getting that Full Plate or Greatsword should be quite a thing. I'm unsure if giving only, say, 100 gp for buying starting equipment is good, as that would effectively limit the Heavy Armour/Shield/weird weapons users. I'm wondering if I think that's alright or not to gimp those characters. I've thought about using different starting gold for different classes (as normal), but they seem to be in the same magnitude anyway.

The most important part for me is that every character should start the game on equal footing in terms of what they should be able to do, according to their class. I'm not really sure what mechanic will enforce that in the best way. Ideas?

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:17 am

Sajber wrote:I'm unsure if giving only, say, 100 gp for buying starting equipment is good, as that would effectively limit the Heavy Armour/Shield/weird weapons users. I'm wondering if I think that's alright or not to gimp those characters. I've thought about using different starting gold for different classes (as normal), but they seem to be in the same magnitude anyway.

100gp seems quite low for any character expected to do tanking duty. At that rate you are pretty much restricting them to Scale Mail only, which will definitely impact on the AC of characters meant to be on the front lines.

There is a reason that Wizards get half the starting gold of Fighters - they don't need anything other than a component pouch and a spellbook, so anything else they get is just gravy. Starting everyone on lower than average money disadvantages the warriors more than the casters. I'd probably stick with the average starting gold given in the books - it isn't much difference, but it allows a starting Heavy armor wearer some chainmail to at least have a slightly higher AC than the rest of the party.

I guess at this point I should pimp the Simplified Tome armor revision I recently posted that makes armor more manageable whilst still providing reasons other than AC to choose different armors. You might want to take a look.

Sajber · Post by **Sajber** » Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:09 pm

I guess I'll just implement starting money depending on class, then. Still, I'm unsure if it should be random or fixed...

I really like your changes with the armours! Definitely going to implement them. A question, though: how would the rules on temperature and environments (below) work with the Leather Armour / Winter Clothing?

Hot environments make you hotter. This is represented by Fire damage. If you have either an immunity to fire or a resistance to fire of at least 5, you are immune to (most) natural deserts and their heat. The same idea and generalization applies to cold environments, but they deal Cold damage.

I'm pretty sure I've changed the wording somewhat, but I'm also pretty sure I got it from somewhere on TGD. Not sure where, though.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:27 pm

The environment sections in the DMG and SRD don't actually list the nonlethal damage from hot or cold environments as Fire or Cold damage respectively. Now, this leads to some wacky shit with Fire elementals dying from heat exhaustion whilst living in their volcanoes, but RAW says Fire and Cold resistance don't protect from environmental effects.

There is a reasonable argument that Resistance shouldn't always provide protection from environmental effects - an asbestos suit or a Dragonscale breastplate could provide protection from outright flames without preventing heatstroke, for example. However, if you decide to house rule that they do, you'll want to add a clause to the Leather Armor to state "This fire resistance does not protect against environmental effects", because it's not supposed to be worn in deserts. Winter Clothing, on the other hand, is meant to protect against cold weather and needs no such clause. You'll need to decide for yourself whether Dragonscale or Magical armor that provides Fire or Cold resistance protects against environmental effects - depending on whether you see them as simply made of a more resistant material or whether you feel they magically normalise temperature for the wearer.

Sajber wrote:I guess I'll just implement starting money depending on class, then. Still, I'm unsure if it should be random or fixed...

Rolling for starting money is just like rolling for starting stats. It gives the chance that some characters will be better than others. If you like that, roll. If not, take the class averages given in the PHB/class description.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:20 pm

It's (Hot/Cold) Outside specifies that the damage caused by the environment is prevented by fire/cold resistance.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:00 am

Ah OK. I've added a clause to the Leather Armor stating it doesn't protect against environmental effects. Dragonscale and magical Energy Resistance armor can just protect against Heat / Cold as appropriate - by the time you are using these Endure Elements is a thing anyway so it makes very little difference.

Sajber · Post by **Sajber** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:23 pm

Yeah, saw that. Good to have it on paper, or ones-and-zeroes, as it were. I've already made the appropriete changes to my PDF and treasure tables. I made the specific magical armours (as you've written them) into their own table, as I felt they didn't fit into the table of the special abilities that other magical armour get.

Now I was wondering if there was somewhere on TGD that had the equivelant for weapons, i.e. specific (artifact?) weapons. I've seen the Tamed Lightning, Mirrorshard Sword (etc.) by Koumei, but are there specific/artifact weapons that could be done to all the Minor/Medium/Major mechanics?

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:14 am

I don't think anyone's done a write-up of specific Tome weapons as such. The thing with the specific weapons list is that they aren't really much different to the regular weapon powers. Whereas the special armors have powers thematically tied into their forms, their never seemed to be a good reason you couldn't have an Axe of 9-lives stealing instead of a sword, for example.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:25 am

Utterfail wrote up weapon sizes. Take those and apply the Book of Gears. Kabam, you have basic magic weapons.

There's no big base of stuff like this though.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:47 pm

For a Tome Game, of 13th level, how would one go about making a powerful Spellsword and/or Gish? I imagine yes, you use Wizard, but recall there being some complex multiclass combinations. Trying to see what I might be missing, that my searching of it hasn't, well that it could be explained for someone who's new to 3rd edition that'll be playing it. Thusly, just saying to "play a Wizard 13" doesn't immediately tell much without explanation how/why to make it work, well as equipment choices be most helpful.

A Basic combination that's being proposed for the character, is Tome Fighter 1, Wizard 2, Eldritch Knight 10. Since not sure how that'd pan out exactly, trying to see if there's something better out there.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:16 am

Aryxbez wrote:For a Tome Game, of 13th level, how would one go about making a powerful Spellsword and/or Gish? I imagine yes, you use Wizard, but recall there being some complex multiclass combinations. Trying to see what I might be missing, that my searching of it hasn't, well that it could be explained for someone who's new to 3rd edition that'll be playing it. Thusly, just saying to "play a Wizard 13" doesn't immediately tell much without explanation how/why to make it work, well as equipment choices be most helpful.

A Basic combination that's being proposed for the character, is Tome Fighter 1, Wizard 2, Eldritch Knight 10. Since not sure how that'd pan out exactly, trying to see if there's something better out there.

Tome Fighter 1/Martial Wizard 2/Eldritch Knight 5/Abjurant Champion 5.

Martial Wizard Swaps out your lame ass scribe scroll for a fighter feat which are going to be tome feats and thus awesome. If the DM allows the BoED look up greater Luminous Armor. With that and Shield you'll have an AC of 32 from those spells alone.

Martial Wizard 5/Swiftblade 8

This build will lose many caster levels, to the point that you are no longer a main caster and are instead a fighter with some casting. However the class features you get are pretty boss +2 to attacks AC and reflex saves and your haste spell is free quickened, grants displacement effect that ignores true seeing, and freedom of movement. Next level it starts to grant an extra action like it did in 3.0 and the level after that gives you a pseudo-timestop effect.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:59 am

Aryxbez wrote:For a Tome Game, of 13th level, how would one go about making a powerful Spellsword and/or Gish? I imagine yes, you use Wizard, but recall there being some complex multiclass combinations. Trying to see what I might be missing, that my searching of it hasn't, well that it could be explained for someone who's new to 3rd edition that'll be playing it. Thusly, just saying to "play a Wizard 13" doesn't immediately tell much without explanation how/why to make it work, well as equipment choices be most helpful.

A Basic combination that's being proposed for the character, is Tome Fighter 1, Wizard 2, Eldritch Knight 10. Since not sure how that'd pan out exactly, trying to see if there's something better out there.

Do you want more emphasis on the fighting or the magic? How much Tome stuff is allowed?

There are a variety of Tome feats of varying power levels floating around the forums that grant access to spheres or outright spellcasting. Stapling those onto a Fighter, Barbarian, or Samurai is pretty simple.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:58 am

As Avora... says, in a tome game, it really really depends on what you want to do.

For me the quintessential 'tome fighter/mage' is the boneblade reaper, since that has been doable since the Tome of Necromancy (though improved by both Dungeonomicon and Races of War).

The basic chassis is X 1 or 2/necromancer 5 or 4 with Boneblade Master, Weapon Finesse, and Lightning Reflexes, where X is a full BAB class with Move Silently as a class skill.

For extra awesome, be a goblin with the Giant Slayer feat. Stock up on buffs, touch spells, and ranged attacks. Subtle Cut is a nice touch as well.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:25 am

http://www.mediafire.com/?xzry5xvn338im5i
This is the latest version of Koumei's Disgaeaverse Tome PDF.

Solid options for a level 13 PC who wears armor, hits things with a sword, and also casts "spells":

Blue/Red/Green Mage prestiged into Magic Knight is pretty great if you don't mind having a bunch of supernatural abilities instead of picking off a spell list.

9 levels of monk for 1 Master Fighting Style, some levels of Fallen to keep good BAB and add on some magic tricks.

A fighty class plus 5 levels of Hell Warden gives you a small number of spells you actually care about.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:53 am

You could always go Kaelik's version of Carthaz's Conduit for three levels, Fighter 9 (because Foil Action is orgasm inducing) and whatever the fuck you want for that extra level. Only down 1 BAB, properly scaling SLAs, and feats out the ass.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:15 am

13 is exactly enough fighter levels for 2 Foils. That's good enough that I'd just go for Feat casting if it were allowed.

K · Post by K » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:45 am

Sajber wrote:
Red_Rob wrote: Starting on max HP at first level is a 3e thing too. I let my players roll, then they can choose to take the roll or the average of the dice (rounded up). So a Cleric rolls a D8, then could choose the result or 4. It meant that max hp was still as rare, but evened out the low rolls and meant rolling a 1 wasn't a disaster.
Ah, great, I'll definitely use that!

Another question is about starting equipment. What is a good way to handle giving out starting equipment? My aim for this game is that gold should really, really matter in the lower levels, i.e. getting that Full Plate or Greatsword should be quite a thing. I'm unsure if giving only, say, 100 gp for buying starting equipment is good, as that would effectively limit the Heavy Armour/Shield/weird weapons users. I'm wondering if I think that's alright or not to gimp those characters. I've thought about using different starting gold for different classes (as normal), but they seem to be in the same magnitude anyway.

The most important part for me is that every character should start the game on equal footing in terms of what they should be able to do, according to their class. I'm not really sure what mechanic will enforce that in the best way. Ideas?

Honestly, just giving people 4K in normal equipment and one +1 magic weapon at 1st level is the way to go. Otherwise, you are going to end up in a weird situation where the Wizard with a good Dex and Mage Armor is going to have a better AC than the fighting guy.

The sooner you can get to the adventure and skip over the horse-stealing and sleeping in the woods phase of your adventuring life, the better.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:59 pm

Question time, since I couldn't find a general Tome FAQ thread (in b4 someone points that it's on like page 2):

1) The Tome Monk lacks flurry of blows, but what happens if he takes the Two-Weapon Fighting feat? Or rather, other than "haste", how to give more slam attacks on a full attack to a tome monk?

2) Supposing I don't want to deal with fear rules, what would be good substitutes for the:

The +11 BAB effect of Horde-Breaker
The +11 BAB effect of Blitz

3) In Combat School, regarding the +6 BAB effect, is there something that stops one to saying that he's using the signature moves round after round? Finally, for an unarmed Combat School (this is another monk question) what would be a good substitute for the "+4 vs. Disarm" gained at +11 BAB?

4) If we don't want to deal with the complexity implied by Problem Solver (Tome Fighter) what would be a good alternate power?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:51 pm

nockermensch wrote:Question time, since I couldn't find a general Tome FAQ thread (in b4 someone points that it's on like page 2):

1) The Tome Monk lacks flurry of blows, but what happens if he takes the Two-Weapon Fighting feat? Or rather, other than "haste", how to give more slam attacks on a full attack to a tome monk?

2) Supposing I don't want to deal with fear rules, what would be good substitutes for the:

The +11 BAB effect of Horde-Breaker

The +11 BAB effect of Blitz

3) In Combat School, regarding the +6 BAB effect, is there something that stops one to saying that he's using the signature moves round after round? Finally, for an unarmed Combat School (this is another monk question) what would be a good substitute for the "+4 vs. Disarm" gained at +11 BAB?

4) If we don't want to deal with the complexity implied by Problem Solver (Tome Fighter) what would be a good alternate power?

1) You don't. You just attack with a Greatsword and a Slam attack, or whatever. Or you take TWFing and attack with two daggers and a slam. Because that is how natural attacks work.

3)(a) Nothing, which is why it is too fucking powerful. Because that is what people do.

4) Delete that line, and continue playing a too powerful class as before, but now it is less interesting.