Riddle Me Not

[RadiantPhoenix]

It seems like almost all of the riddle issue (other than one player getting obsessed with solving it when everyone else has moved on) falls under the general guideline for mystery adventures of, "always make sure there are at least three ways from each step of the mystery to the next one," where," answer the riddle," is just one way.

[Psychic Robot]

that's a good point. don't make solving a riddle the stopping point of an adventure, make it a sidepoint. maybe include some bonus or benefit from it

[RadiantPhoenix]

that's a good point. don't make solving a riddle the stopping point of an adventure, make it a sidepoint. maybe include some bonus or benefit from it

That's not what I said; I said it should be one path to the next part of the adventure.

[tzor]

They can be fun, but they can also be crap. First and foremost, they should always be "in character." Riddles that depend on inormation that would not be know to the characters is like having a unrelated mini-game in the middle of the game.

Second they have to make sense in context. Sphinxes I can see; you almost expect a riddle from them. (The same is true for deranged hobbits.) But a room in the middle of nowhere? Why is it there?

Note we also combine riddles with puzzle rooms. The same logic applies but you can really get believable ones that are fun. The best examples come from Dr. Who (and the Time Lords who can never remember simple passwords). There is a room with a secret door. The door has no apparent means to open it and is also magical. In the room is a harp. Behind the harp is a painting of a person playing the harp, looking at a stand with music on it. The secret door is open in that painting.

No really, if you didn't get - you play the music on the painting on the harp to open the door - you're not paying attention

[Psychic Robot]

That's not what I said; I said it should be one path to the next part of the adventure.

I was adding onto it rather than merely reiterating

[Chamomile]

The best examples come from Dr. Who (and the Time Lords who can never remember simple passwords). There is a room with a secret door. The door has no apparent means to open it and is also magical. In the room is a harp. Behind the harp is a painting of a person playing the harp, looking at a stand with music on it. The secret door is open in that painting.

No really, if you didn't get - you play the music on the painting on the harp to open the door - you're not paying attention

If I were writing a story about this puzzle, it'd go something like this:

Character A: Oh, that's simple enough! We play the music in that painting to open the door.
Character B: Oh, that makes sense!
Character A: ...
Character B: ...
Character C: ...
Character A: Do you know how to play a harp?
Character B: No.
Character C: *Smashes the door down with a hammer*

[hogarth]

It seems like almost all of the riddle issue (other than one player getting obsessed with solving it when everyone else has moved on) falls under the general guideline for mystery adventures of, "always make sure there are at least three ways from each step of the mystery to the next one," where," answer the riddle," is just one way.

To sum up PL's points from his first post:
1) Any sufficiently hard riddle will either cause tedious frustration or it will be bypassed anyways (by smashing through a wall or whatever).
2) Easy riddles are pointless speed bumps.
3) Does anyone use riddles in real life, other than as the weakest possible form of entertainment? No? So why the hell are people using them in fantasy games?

[hyzmarca]

The best use of a riddle puzzle in a D&D game has to be in Planescape: Torment.

Ravel Puzzlewell is a total jerkass. Whenever someone finds her she asks "What can change the nature of a man?" Every time the person she asks fails to answer correctly and suffers a fate far worse than death.

The correct answer: there isn't one. No matter what you tell her it's going to be wrong, because she's a jerk like that. The only way you can get it right is if you're the PC (and hey, you are) in which case it doesn't matter what answer you give because Ravel likes you.

The riddle itself merely serves to set the philosophical tone of the game.

[Lago PARANOIA]

The riddle itself merely serves to set the philosophical tone of the game.

Selfish and nonsensical divine command theory?

[tzor]

Here is a good example of an evil (almost gygaxian) riddle that I'd never use because I don't hate my players that much.

You see some faint writing on the wall in front of you. It's really hard to read so you have to get really close to the wall. On the wall are the words, "I'm right next to you yet you can't see me. Where am I?"

If you think "behind you" when you turn around the secret door opens, the thief backstabs you and says "fools them every time."

Because, you see, the real answer is "behind the wall, stupid."

I really could see a thief who was assigned to do guard duty doing this, especially if this was a place like a thieves' guild.

[RadiantPhoenix]

See, my first thought with that was explosive runes, which would make using a spyglass to read the text from more than 10ft away a more advisable choice.

[Chamomile]

I was waiting for an explosive punchline, myself.

[MfA]

I hate riddles because they have so many unspoken assumptions ... they are a little like IQ tests or most job interviews, it's about getting into the head of the person who asks the question to determine the answer he wants.

Logic puzzles ala Raymond M. Smullyan's stuff I respect more ... completely unsuited for an average D&D game though.

[Avoraciopoctules]

After player feedback, I've figured out what game I plan to run this weekend. It involves a magical lighthouse taken over by some jerk wearing a mask made from a giant bird's skull who has been attacking and sinking trade ships for reasons so far unknown. He seems to have a rapport with the flying monsters of the region, who assist him in his efforts.

One library room towards the top has a recently added hanging scroll with the following written on it (riddle by Jonathan Swift, 1667-1745):

In Youth exalted high in Air,
Or bathing in the Waters fair;
Nature to form me took Delight,
And clad my Body all in White:
My Person tall, and slender Waste,
On either Side with Fringes grac'd;
Till me that Tyrant Man espy'd,
And drag'd me from my Mother's side:
No Wonder now I look so thin;
The Tyrant strip't me to the Skin:
My Skin he flay'd, my Hair he cropt;
At Head and Foot my Body lopt:
And then, with Heart more hard than Stone,
He pick't my Marrow from the Bone.
To vex me more, he took a Freak,
To slit my Tongue, and made me speak:
But, that which wonderful appears,
I speak to Eyes and not to Ears.
He oft employs me in Disguise,
And makes me tell a Thousand Lyes:
To me he chiefly gives in Trust
To please his Malice, or his Lust.
From me no Secret he can hide;
I see his Vanity and Pride:
And my Delight is to expose
His Follies to his greatest Foes.
All languages I can command,
Yet not a Word I understand.
Without my Aid, the best Divine
In Learning would not know a Line:
The Lawyer must forget his Pleading,
The Scholar could not shew his Reading.
Nay; Man, my Master, is my Slave:
I give Command to kill or save.
Can grant ten Thousand Pounds a Year,
And make a Beggar's Brat a Peer.

But, while I thus my Life relate,
I only hasten on my Fate.
My Tongue is black, my Mouth is furr'd,
I hardly now can force a Word.
I dye unpity'd and forgot;
And on some Dunghill left to rot.

[Whatever]

But what are they supposed to do when they figure out that it's a Quill?

[hogarth]

They do whatever they want and the GM either makes something happen (or he doesn't) since it sounds like they're basically playing Magical Tea Party anyways.

[Avoraciopoctules]

But what are they supposed to do when they figure out that it's a Quill?

They have a hint into the psychology of Masked Jerk. Possibly a conversational tool that will allow them to goad him into a villainous monologue about they are all inferior that lasts long enough to cast Blazing Strike on their rifles and then spend a round aiming.

[hogarth]

As far as where to use riddles the two places I use them:

1) spells like divinations, etc.
2) Dungeons designed as a trial or test. Riddles act as a test of intelligence.

Occasionally I've used them in other places, like an insane guy who wouldn't give them a clue unless they solved his riddle. The clue in that case wasn't essential but it would lead the PCs to more treasure.

I missed this post the first time this thread came around. I think RC2 pretty much summed up the acceptable uses of riddles. Note that they're all pretty rare, at least in my experience; I can't speak for Avoraciopoctules' game which is apparently set in the Old-Timey Joke Book Universe.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Avoraciopoctules' game which is apparently set in the Old-Timey Joke Book Universe.

So, like, is there a way for me to combine an unnecessarily slow-moving dipping mechanism with a gratuitous riddle so much easier to shoot than solve that the PCs are likely to have resolved it before they even realize a riddle was present?
EDIT:
Ooh, and it should be really easy to just bypass the whole thing by simply walking around it.

[Avoraciopoctules]

I found another riddle I'm thinking of repurposing for a game.

There's six bodies dangling from a hanging tree. Each of them has a crime written on them somewhere obvious. The list is:
- Arsonist
- Counterfeiter
- Embezzler
- Kidnapper
- Murderer
- Thief

As the party enters the area, they get a telepathic message.
"Only the sinless one can help you here. Mistakenly pull on a criminal's rope, and your reward will be returned to you in a shape most wondrously strange."

Written on one side of the tree is the following:

Written on the opposite side is the following:

[echoVanguard]

The second riddle doesn't really seem to go with the first.

I'm guessing it's the Arsonist?

echo

[Avoraciopoctules]

The second sblock is basically just flavor. There's easy and hard variants on the first sblock, which is the core of the riddle. I'll edit in the hard version in this post in a few minutes.
EDIT1: and Yes to your guess.
EDIT2: Here's the Hard version. Different number of criminals specific crimes involved, but the goal is still the same.

EDIT3:
- bodily injurer
- counterfeiter
- embezzler
- kidnapper
- murderer
- swindler

[nockermensch]

I found another riddle I'm thinking of repurposing for a game.

There's six bodies dangling from a hanging tree. Each of them has a crime written on them somewhere obvious. The list is:
- Arsonist
- Counterfeiter
- Embezzler
- Kidnapper
- Murderer
- Thief

As the party enters the area, they get a telepathic message.
"Only the sinless one can help you here. Mistakenly pull on a criminal's rope, and your reward will be returned to you in a shape most wondrously strange."

Written on one side of the tree is the following:

Written on the opposite side is the following:

As a character in this game, I'd want nothing with this tree. Anybody that sets something like this is deranged and any potential gains aren't worth the headache of getting involved.

[Grek]

Yeah. At first I was going to complain that the messages on a tree didn't constitute a riddle. But then, after further contemplation, I realized that even if there were a riddle there, I'd refuse to approach the telepathic, poem-reciting corpse-tree just on general principle.

[echoVanguard]

First poem by itself is fine. Easy riddles are better than hard ones. What's supposed to happen if they solve/fail to solve the riddle?

echo