You do fucking win at D&D.

[Mr. GC]

So the enemies have a comically poor layout of their base and lines of communication. I thought you said you WEREN'T sandbagging...?

They can't control where the bell tower is. Other than cast Silence before any of the enemies get an action, or kill every enemy before any enemy gets an action, just having the first action be to ring that bell is enough. And that isn't very likely to happen unless you're also doing some serious init boosting... otherwise even if you think to make the right move you won't do it fast enough.

The standard is to use line-of-sight visual communication with shuttered lanterns. In the ridiculous D&D economy, this costs somewhere between 1 and 120 pieces of silver per lantern, depending on which model you are using. You can use a rather simple code (1 if by land, two if by sea) or something much more complex. A skilled signal lamp operator can flash morse very quickly and a read it just as fast. In the daylight you'd use semaphore instead.

Belltowers are like air-raid sirens. They're useful for alerting large numbers of people, particularly civilians, to a danger that is intermittent, like "dragon incoming, get in a hole".

For command and control of a paramilitary group, they're total shit. Optical communication has superior range, superior information density, is less likely to be intercepted (though interception is still possible) and is immune to Silence. It can still be be fucked over by Globe of Darkness, but since lanterns are portable and not tied to any specific infrastructure you can have multiple watchtowers covering the area instead of putting everyone in one belltower.

And even that would be moot if the characters made use of telepathy.

The Dragon doesn't even need Alarm because he has a Breath Weapon, and people will notice that.

And third, a loud shout by a skilled crier can carry a lot further than 1000 feet. Merely applying a +1 per 10 feet modifier to the lisiten check without applying a negative modifier for the guard shouting and trying to be heard is against the spirit of the rules.

Telepathy generally has a range of 100 feet, such as here (incidentally, any attempt to stealth attack the tower will be automatically detected at 90 feet, no points for guessing how).

A negative modifier for the guard shouting would be -5, perhaps -10... Still a DC impossible check. Even the dragon, who halves distance penalties would be very unlikely to make that one.

Also, it's day time.

Yes. The difference is that dying in Dark Souls means I get to instantly restart, while dying in D&D means the evening is now about "making another character" instead "playing D&D".

Instantly restart, but have to get back to where you were or lose all your unspent XP forever if you die again. This can take longer than making a new character.

But then again, it's a bad comparison. In Dark Souls, the game makers still want you to win, they only want you feel really challenged while doing so. "HARD MODE D&D" means that the DM should earnestly emulate the Int 26 lvl 15 Evil Wizard, the Wis 26 lvl 15 Evil Druid and/or the 1000 years old Evil Dragon. And when guys like these want to defeat the PCs, they'll just do that, by using exactly the same tools the PCs have at their disposition. (divination spells beforehand, then ambush and ultra-murder, since D&D favors this tactic)

You're right that Dark Souls AI is pretty bad despite their best efforts. Obviously, a D&D game wouldn't have those flaws.

By the time you reach those levels you have Mind Blank so what's the problem?

ITT: People can't tell the difference between hard and impossible.

[Fuchs]

They can't control where the bell tower is.

I thought we were taking high level... those schmucks can't even build a tower where they want to?

Who said it was high level?

At one point I distinctly mentioned, among many other things a dragon that was described as taking someone to 3 HP through GMI and Wings of Cover - both top tier defenses.

Now to smart people (meaning not you) this says all of the following:

That dragon is full attacking, and still moving.
That dragon is doing a fuckload of damage even by dragon standards.

So, "Top Tier" doesn't mean high level in your 4-tier game?

[CapnTthePirateG]

Psion, 30 AC, fuck off saves, automagically successful dispels ring a bell? You sure as hell don't get that at level 1

[RadiantPhoenix]

Or, let me put this on another way: The instant a party uses a tactic not deducted and countered in advance by a wizard with intelligence in the high twenties or surprises a druid with wisdom in the same high twenties, any pretention of "WE ARE PLAYING REAL D&D" already left the building.

Remember that the PCs probably have a wizard with comparable INT, and a cleric/druid with comparable WIS.

It is extremely unlikely that any of the players at your table can actually roleplay that normally, so the only "fair" options are to dumb down both sides or to add explicit plot-retconning abilities to high INT and WIS.

[hyzmarca]

A negative modifier for the guard shouting would be -5, perhaps -10... Still a DC impossible check. Even the dragon, who halves distance penalties would be very unlikely to make that one.

Try -100.


A baby screaming is about 110 decibels. At 1000 feet that attenuates to about 60 decibels, around the upper bounds of an indoor conversation, which has a +0 modifier.

The grunts made by tennis players are 101 decibels, which attenuates to about 40 decibels at 1000 feet, at the lower bounds of normal conversation. So again, -100. This took me thirty seconds of goggling to find a sound attenuation calculator and a Wikipedia article on screaming.

Also, it's day time.

I did mention semaphore. Men with giant flags are tempting targets, but you can see them at a great distance.

And if you can afford decent mirrors there are always heliographs, which have superior range and are more difficult to intercept.

ITT: People can't tell the difference between hard and impossible.

Hard is winning the Nobel prize. Impossible is eating the sun.

Except I'm pretty sure that D&D has a giant Norse wolf who literally can eat the sun.

[Kaelik]

So someone asks you for concrete examples of how the game is played, and you handwave some bullshit about how it's more fun to not make arguments and make fun of people who are making arguments.

You know who you sound like? Benoist.

Weren't you just bitching about that? Because ya know, if anything makes you sound like one of those morons it's doing the same shit you are currently accusing other people are doing.

I don't know, why don't you try reading what I actually said?

Find a better insult. Accusing people of being specific people from someplace else (as opposed to accusing them of advocating things largely or completely identical to what people from someplace else advocate) is the kind of stupid thing that no one can tell if you are serious about or not, unless they know you well.

[Mistborn]

Psion, 30 AC, fuck off saves, automagically successful dispels ring a bell? You sure as hell don't get that at level 1

Given that his scenario mentioned Divination but not COP I assume that the PCs are 7th-8th level

[DSMatticus]

Instantly restart, but have to get back to where you were or lose all your unspent XP forever if you die again. This can take longer than making a new character.

Just gotta say: if this matters to you, you're playing Dark Souls wrong. And it takes a few minutes of playing the game to get it back. It's literally a mechanic that lets you recover from death by playing the game more. And you know what? It's still the stupidest, most pointless part of the game. Making you waste time completing trivial tasks (run to the boss) does not actually increase the difficulty of the boss or the game; it's just a failure tax that makes you pay for failure with actual time from your actual life that you could be using to do something more interesting. The only good part about it is that it occurs in small enough segments broken up by action that you don't actually feel the game pissing away your valuable time on hold forward.

bad parties fail thing is to go for something like Dark Souls where the game will brutally murder you for a mistake but is still playing fair. Entire party is OHKOed in the surprise round regardless of strategy, tactics, or prep is like playing low levels all over again.

Fair is a buzzword in this context. Insofar as it means anything, it means "adheres to some predefined and open set of rules," and in that context games like I Wanna Be The Guy are fair, because the rules are "this game will randomly kill you and you win by memorization and reflexes" and you know those are the rules. That's fair. But it's not really fun; sure, it might be an interesting accomplishment to put under your belt, but I can think of a dozen more entertaining ways to challenge myself than metagame-memorization.

"My gloves are off, I'm using every appropriately CR'd trick I can come up with" is fair, even if you don't want to do it because it's too hard and too hard is not fun. That's the point! Difficulty is something arbitrarily set by the DM in order to optimize fun, the thing people actually give a shit about. And a sense of accomplishment is part of the fun, so it's your job as a DM to tailor difficulty to produce appropriate challenges that they can overcome (and yes, occasionally fail to overcome) so the group has fun. Seriously, imagine yourself gaming with a bunch of strangers and TPKing them the first encounter. If you see that situation and think "man, I guess these players aren't good enough to D&D in the big leagues," get out of the hobby. Now. Go forth, and never play again. You are a disease.

Anyway, final note: I'm just going to point out that a copy of a party member is expected to be a routine challenge (CR = party level). If you really want to confirm you're not sandbagging, make a copy of the the most dangerous party member and use him as an encounter and go all out. What do you think the odds of at least one PC fatality are? Hint: they're probably higher than the fatality rates you're used to for encounters of that CR.

[nockermensch]

Actual footage of Mr. GC's D&D game being played at Top Tier.

And DSMatticus ninjaed me here. I'd like to point that whatever the party can do, the NPCs also can, so D&D "HARD MODE" is at its "fairest", a sequence of fights where each side has 50% of chances to win. You tell me how fun that is.

[DSMatticus]

Well, an exact copy of the entire party is CR+4. Which is beyond routine encounter and into 'campaign ending bossfight.' But that's probably too difficult even for most people's idea of what a campaign ending bossfight should be like. The TPK chance for a campaign ending fight should probably be around 10-25% percent. The TPK chance for a mirror match with all else being equal is 50%. That's more like what the odds of one PC dying should be.

[Mr. GC]

I thought we were taking high level... those schmucks can't even build a tower where they want to?

Who said it was high level?

At one point I distinctly mentioned, among many other things a dragon that was described as taking someone to 3 HP through GMI and Wings of Cover - both top tier defenses.

Now to smart people (meaning not you) this says all of the following:

That dragon is full attacking, and still moving.
That dragon is doing a fuckload of damage even by dragon standards.

So, "Top Tier" doesn't mean high level in your 4-tier game?

Or it could be that I am using top tier in a different context there. Such as by saying these are the best defenses you can possibly get (either at that time or in general). And then there's the fact GMI is level 4 and WoC is level 2.

Psion, 30 AC, fuck off saves, automagically successful dispels ring a bell? You sure as hell don't get that at level 1

Nor would it matter fuck and all at high levels. At the levels people seem to think this is, AC 30 is hit on a negative 15. Why would I state that as if it were a high defense if it isn't?

Try -100.


A baby screaming is about 110 decibels. At 1000 feet that attenuates to about 60 decibels, around the upper bounds of an indoor conversation, which has a -100 modifier.

The actual rules of the actual game say you're wrong.

-10 A battle
0 People talking1

So one person screaming is many times louder than many people fighting?

Hard is winning the Nobel prize. Impossible is eating the sun.

Except I'm pretty sure that D&D has a giant Norse wolf who literally can eat the sun.

Now do that in the D&D context, without getting deities involved.

Just gotta say: if this matters to you, you're playing Dark Souls wrong. And it takes a few minutes of playing the game to get it back. It's literally a mechanic that lets you recover from death by playing the game more. And you know what? It's still the stupidest, most pointless part of the game. Making you waste time completing trivial tasks (run to the boss) does not actually increase the difficulty of the boss or the game; it's just a failure tax that makes you pay for failure with actual time from your actual life that you could be using to do something more interesting. The only good part about it is that it occurs in small enough segments broken up by action that you don't actually feel the game pissing away your valuable time on hold forward.

Uh huh. And it takes a few minutes to make a new character. Which is also a failure tax. Now you can say you don't want to be punished for failure, at which point I will laugh in your face.

"My gloves are off, I'm using every appropriately CR'd trick I can come up with" is fair, even if you don't want to do it because it's too hard and too hard is not fun.

WAH! D&D is too hard, let's play pretend instead! Incidentally, this is the exact reason I lock the difficulty on hard mode, just so those types will either run away or die horribly.

And a sense of accomplishment is part of the fun, so it's your job as a DM to tailor difficulty to produce appropriate challenges that they can overcome (and yes, occasionally fail to overcome) so the group has fun.

Enabling basket weavers is not, and will never be my job. They are a cancer upon gaming.

Anyway, final note: I'm just going to point out that a copy of a party member is expected to be a routine challenge (CR = party level). If you really want to confirm you're not sandbagging, make a copy of the the most dangerous party member and use him as an encounter and go all out. What do you think the odds of at least one PC fatality are? Hint: they're probably higher than the fatality rates you're used to for encounters of that CR.

If I only copied one PC the entire group would just run right over the clone. Even if the clone got a turn, their attacks would be blocked by various passive and active defenses and do about nothing. Odds they kill anyone are very, very low.

Odds people die in major fights? A whole lot higher (still lowish though).

Mirror matches aren't actually 50% anyways because NPCs have less wealth.

[Fuchs]

You still won't say what level the player characters were, what levels the opposition was, and what tactics were used. Looks you're full of hot air about your so-called hardcore game.

[Mr. GC]

You still won't say what level the player characters were, what levels the opposition was, and what tactics were used. Looks you're full of hot air about your so-called hardcore game.

I believe in teaching men how to fish. Can you fish, or do you need your reapportioned fish?

Some people have already figured it out, which just further proves you're a moron.

[Fuchs]

You're evading still. What is so difficult about simply stating "level X party, classes A, B, C, D. Opposition: CR F Dragon, etc. etc."? Angry that your other example of "hardcore DMing" was taken apart as coddling, and afraid it'll happen again?

[Mistborn]

Since Fuchs is still frozen fast.

Given that his scenario mentioned Divination but not COP I assume that the PCs are 7th-8th level

[Wrathzog]

This discussion seriously sucks. What is each side trying to prove here?

[Mr. GC]

You're evading still. What is so difficult about simply stating "level X party, classes A, B, C, D. Opposition: CR F Dragon, etc. etc."? Angry that your other example of "hardcore DMing" was taken apart as coddling, and afraid it'll happen again?

Nope, you're being a displaced pedant who still doesn't fucking get it, and is babbling on incoherently about all manner of irrelevant and wrong things and then calling it a victory.

This discussion seriously sucks. What is each side trying to prove here?

That you do fucking win at D&D, and it comes from making and playing a good character and a good party, and that therefore you can deal with normal or even hard encounters, survive, and thrive.

Team Basket Weaver is confusing hard with impossible and going out of their way to construct some sort of scenario that will kill everyone regardless of competence, all to try and defend the fact they couldn't beat a stock Orc at level 5.

[DSMatticus]

Since Fuchs is still frozen fast.

Given that his scenario mentioned Divination but not COP I assume that the PCs are 7th-8th level

classes A, B, C, D. Opposition: CR F Dragon

Yes, Lord Mistborn, you've successfully answered every question that could ever be asked about the hypothetical situation. Except the ones you didn't answer. Which were basically all of them that were asked in the post you are directly responding to. And then all the other relevant details that didn't get asked that might modify the situation.

It's perfectly legitimate to ask GC to provide the specifics of the situation, because without knowing what options each side had available there's really no way to tell whether sandbagging occurred. And even more importantly: it gives him the ability to modify the unspecified details on the fly to cover any gaps he didn't think of before, which even if he isn't actually doing that it's literally the only 'useful' thing that comes out of bullshit like this. GC is hiding from criticism behind obfuscation, and deflecting inquiries with totally irrelevant insults. It's incredibly shady and incredibly dishonest.

I have a federal budget plan. It's great, but I'm not going to tell you what it is. What, you can't figure out how awesome it is yourself? Someone failed econ 101. DSMatticus for president.

If I only copied one PC the entire group would just run right over the clone. Even if the clone got a turn, their attacks would be blocked by various passive and active defenses and do about nothing. Odds they kill anyone are very, very low.

Okay, at this point you are in the quantum state where the PC's are both so awesome they have defenses against every save or fuck you ever and so shitty they can't scrape up a single save or fuck you effect that has any chance of going through against a competent opponent (i.e. themselves). So I'm just going to call you on the bullshit. Actual D&D played at 'high' or 'top' or whatever the fuck we're calling it tier goes like rocket launcher tag, and the defenses are either nonexistent or a few levels too late.

The only real saving grace is that if this is occuring at low-mid-levels, the save or fuck you's are against removal instead of against death, so the odds of death actually are probably low unless you have NPC's deliver mid-combat coup de grace's. Which, really, they should do if they're there to act as ablative, resource-consuming defenses for important people; which they are. So that, in and of itself, would be sandbagging.

Uh huh. And it takes a few minutes to make a new character. Which is also a failure tax. Now you can say you don't want to be punished for failure, at which point I will laugh in your face.

Yeah, that's stupid and terrible. Here's why:

1) Death and failure are not the same thing. Death is a subset of failure. It's entirely possible for PC's to fail without them dying, and that's an important distinction because when you leapfrog your way from "wasting people's time pointlessly is bullshit" to "LOL, YOU DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO FAIL" you are making two totally unprecedented leaps of faith and that makes you twice the asshat.

2) Uhh, no. People shouldn't be punished for failure, especially not in the stupid-ass way you're thinking. Here's a hypothetical: the characters at the table are all effectively immortal. Lich, vampire, Achilles, Macbeth, whatever. Sure, maybe they can die, but their death is more like a plot device than something routine, so they go into every encounter with basically zero chance of biting it. When they fail a combat encounter, you can't make them make a new character. So, do you send them to the corner for five minutes to think about what they've done? Do you shake your finger at them sternly? How do you punish them? Or do you just keep playing the fucking game like a mature, functional adult?

Now, the game is something designed to produce cool, fun shit by a combination of random chance and GM/PC choices, and sometimes that cool, fun shit is 'someone dies,' and 'go make a new character' is a byproduct of the cool, fun shit that was someone's death. It's not actually a punisment, and your use of the word punishment is hilariously misguided (and really god damn creepy; it is not the GM's job to administer literal or metaphorical spankings, so cut that shit out right now). It's just a campaign direction to pursue that hopefully people will enjoy in the longterm even if the shortterm feels like a bummer (or maybe it doesn't). PC death's usually make for hilarious stories.

Insofar as punishment should exist at all in a hobby meant for entertaining yourself and your friends, it should serve to further the experience. Punishment means shit like you failed to rescue the princess despite all your bolstering, so now if you set foot in the the king's land again he'll have you hanged, so you have different adventures about 'fuck that guy, I do what I want' or 'into the Eastern frontier' or 'maybe his son would like an early inheritance.' That's not really a punishment, that's just a failed campaign objective that forces the players to have their characters pursue different goals, or pursue a goal in a different direction. (Related note: D&D really needs better rules for surrender and retreat.) It's something they will care about.

[Fuchs]

Since Fuchs is still frozen fast.

Given that his scenario mentioned Divination but not COP I assume that the PCs are 7th-8th level

You assume. You might be right, but no one can tell, since Mr. GC won't actually reveal his encounter. And even if we knew the level we don't know details needed to see if sandbagging has occurred. As an example, "I beat a Balor at level 12" doesn't tell us anything. We don't know what class was used, what gear, what house rules, how the balor was played, and so on.

[nockermensch]

This discussion seriously sucks. What is each side trying to prove here?

I'll provide a summary for you:

Hey Sperglords,
My name is Mr. GC, and I hate every single one of you. All of you are stupid, worthless basket-weavers who spend every second of their day fawning over useless characters. You are everything bad in the world. Honestly, have any of you ever won an encounter without DM pity? I mean, I guess it's fun making fun of people because of your own failures, but you all take to a whole new level. This is even worse than straight MTP.

Don't be a stranger. Just hit me with your best shot. I'm pretty much perfect. I win at real D&D with no punches pulled, and have four difficulty tiers in my games. What characters do you play, other than "basket weaving loser"? I also remember to silence any bell towers I see, and have Lord Mistborn's tongue firmly attached to my asshole (He just blew me; Shit was SO cash). You are all losers who should just kill yourselves. Thanks for listening.

Pic Related: It's me and Lord Mistborn

[Fuchs]

Nope, you're being a displaced pedant who still doesn't fucking get it, and is babbling on incoherently about all manner of irrelevant and wrong things and then calling it a victory.

I did not call it a victory. Though I wonder how anyone can take you serious if you consider asking after what level and classes and tactics were used by both sides of your famous encounter "asking all manner of irrelevant and wrong things" - as if there's no difference between a fighter at low and high levels, and between playing a balor as a melee machine, or as a highly mobile mastermind.

[Mr. GC]

Okay, at this point you are in the quantum state where the PC's are both so awesome they have defenses against every save or fuck you ever and so shitty they can't scrape up a single save or fuck you effect that has any chance of going through against a competent opponent (i.e. themselves). So I'm just going to call you on the bullshit. Actual D&D played at 'high' or 'top' or whatever the fuck we're calling it tier goes like rocket launcher tag, and the defenses are either nonexistent or a few levels too late.

If you actually understood gameplay on even a basic level you'd know exactly how this is possible with no contradictions or quantum states of anything being required.

Since I am feeling generous right now, here is a free fish. It's called actions. So the first person throws a Dispel, to bring their defenses down to "no longer near invincible" level, and then the rest follow up before the enemy can react and they die very quickly.

Meanwhile, if you only copy one PC, you can't do that. Because you only have one set of actions.

If you have a scenario like this, you kill things very quickly or you get overwhelmed because there are enough enemies on the field so that they can do that as well.

Therefore, a scenario like this is harder than "copy one PC".

The only real saving grace is that if this is occuring at low-mid-levels, the save or fuck you's are against removal instead of against death, so the odds of death actually are probably low unless you have NPC's deliver mid-combat coup de grace's. Which, really, they should do if they're there to act as ablative, resource-consuming defenses for important people; which they are. So that, in and of itself, would be sandbagging.

The irony of this is that conventional spell defenses are actually the easiest to get. As in it is easier to get saves to pass on a 2+ than it is to not die to pouncing full attackers with move speeds of "the battlefield".

Yeah, that's stupid and terrible. Here's why:

1) Death and failure are not the same thing. Death is a subset of failure. It's entirely possible for PC's to fail without them dying, and that's an important distinction because when you leapfrog your way from "wasting people's time pointlessly is bullshit" to "LOL, YOU DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO FAIL" you are making two totally unprecedented leaps of faith and that makes you twice the asshat.

The alternatives waste even more time, so if you were serious, and not just bitching, you wouldn't suggest alternatives to character death as you'd know they were worse for you.

2) Uhh, no. People shouldn't be punished for failure, especially not in the stupid-ass way you're thinking. Here's a hypothetical: the characters at the table are all effectively immortal. Lich, vampire, Achilles, Macbeth, whatever. Sure, maybe they can die, but their death is more like a plot device than something routine, so they go into every encounter with basically zero chance of biting it. When they fail a combat encounter, you can't make them make a new character. So, do you send them to the corner for five minutes to think about what they've done? Do you shake your finger at them sternly? How do you punish them? Or do you just keep playing the fucking game like a mature, functional adult?

That sounds like a game where everyone just does dumbass shit because it doesn't matter and they aren't taking the game seriously. You know, like they do in basket weaver games.

Or it could be one of those things where you fail and waste more time than if you just died and got raised or made a new character.

The rest of your post is entirely irrelevant.

[Wrathzog]

That you do fucking win at D&D, and it comes from making and playing a good character and a good party, and that therefore you can deal with normal or even hard encounters, survive, and thrive.

That's one thing, dude, but you and Fuchs are going all up in some semantics shit (Shitmantics, if you will).
Seriously, this discussion about this one game that you ran that one time ain't doing no one any favors. It doesn't prove anything and it's boring to read.

Oh fuck someone broke tables cheese it, boys!

-e-

Well Explained Disposition of Events

okay, this got me to snort, chuckle, and guffaw. excellent.

[Mr. GC]

Retardness and Fuchs breaking the damn tables aside, this thread is proving that what I said at the beginning is correct. The Den, while better than those fucks on the RPGsite is still not on my level.

[Fuchs]

To be on the level of the Den you'd need to be able to provide arguments and information, not just boasts. You've got the insults, but you lack anything else to back your claims.