You do fucking win at D&D.

[Mr. GC]

To be on the level of the Den you'd need to be able to provide arguments and information, not just boasts. You've got the insults, but you lack anything else to back your claims.

And yet, Mistborn is figuring this shit out based on very easy deductions and you are not. You need everything spelled out for you explicitly or you won't get it. Incidentally, that's another key difference between good and bad players. The good ones can extrapolate and figure out what's going on even if given few and/or limited clues.

The bad ones go OMG, your encounter with one counter has one counter, it's actually easy!

Nevermind that in an actual game, what'd happen is they'd blunder about, get ambushed, get all set with a death timer of soon then not be able to do anything about it. The timer hits zero, the enemies return, and they take your stuff. And then cry the DM made a too hard encounter because their halfling dex based monk couldn't do shit about it.

[Fuchs]

Mistborn made an assumption about levels. Which you did not confirm. He hasn't figured out anything that would actually allow anyone to test your claims.

[Wrathzog]

not on my level.

Hurm... alright, carry on with the hate-fucking then.
*Ollies outy*

[hyzmarca]

The actual rules of the actual game say you're wrong.

-10 A battle
0 People talking1

So one person screaming is many times louder than many people fighting?

Potentially, yes.

Remember, the bel is a logarithmic unit, not a linear one. 10 more decibels means that the sound pressure level is literally ten times greater. 110 decibels, a very loud scream, is about the same as a gasoline powered chainsaw, something that you can easily hear from a significant distance.

If we assume that the generic battle referenced by the table is 100 decibels, a reasonable assumption, then a 110 decibel scream being 10 times easier to hear makes perfect sense.

[CapnTthePirateG]

And with citing AC as a supposed fuckoff defense on your psion, I'm forced to conclude that you have in fact never heard of miss chances and are in fact not as pro as you think.

And you're a shitty player for not putting Mindsight on all your characters so as not to be ambushed by Shadow Weave incantatars.

[nockermensch]

Retardness and Fuchs breaking the damn tables aside, this thread is proving that what I said at the beginning is correct. The Den, while better than those fucks on the RPGsite is still not on my level.

Best thread on IMHO right now.

[Stubbazubba]

Yeah, that line is probably the funniest thing I have seen on TGD since Orion's line about shadzar innovating on the frontier of punctuation science. That, however, was trying to be funny.

[Mr. GC]

Mistborn made an assumption about levels. Which you did not confirm. He hasn't figured out anything that would actually allow anyone to test your claims.

I said "people have figured it out already". Then he reposted that. What do you think that means?

The actual rules of the actual game say you're wrong.

-10 A battle
0 People talking1

So one person screaming is many times louder than many people fighting?

Potentially, yes.

Remember, the bel is a logarithmic unit, not a linear one. 10 more decibels means that the sound pressure level is literally ten times greater. 110 decibels, a very loud scream, is about the same as a gasoline powered chainsaw, something that you can easily hear from a significant distance.

If we assume that the generic battle referenced by the table is 100 decibels, a reasonable assumption, then a 110 decibel scream being 10 times easier to hear makes perfect sense.

And yet people talking, which would be more than 10 decibels less is 10 points lower. Not to mention you're trying to use real world sound to describe a D&D mechanic...

And with citing AC as a supposed fuckoff defense on your psion, I'm forced to conclude that you have in fact never heard of miss chances and are in fact not as pro as you think.

And you're a shitty player for not putting Mindsight on all your characters so as not to be ambushed by Shadow Weave incantatars.

If you were actually familiar with psions, you'd know they don't have very many of those (and if you were really clever, and really good at deduction, you'd know 30 was only mid range at the level and the main defense is putting 200 HP on a fucking caster at these levels).

You'd also know how exactly it is Psions endure, which in turn would tell you how I got those numbers.

[Mistborn]

Since I am apparently the only person who doesn't fail at D&D

How too beat GC's scenario (at least LMs best guess)

Given the sort of stress these sorts of encounters put on spell slots the standard optimized conjurer and his band of gimps party the usually defines my existance in D&D would not be sufficient. You want to have high saves and reactive defenses on everyone. Really you need to have an all caster party otherwise you may as well just go home and weave baskets.

-I'd actually just ignore the bell tower and hit the main group. Given GC's description the group in the bell tower is too far out to effect things in the main building.

-Remember to cast all of your buffs before enter the building.

-You really want someone with mindsight to tell you where the monsters are in the building.

-Dim. Door right on top of one the casters and try to murder their face off in the surprise round. Try to finish the fight quickly before the other caster has time to buff.

-While you are fighting indoors try to keep the melee machines off you by webbing hallways.

-after both casters are dead take to the skies and try to fight the dragon in the open air since this dragon is melee speced and thus the ultimate closet troll

-now that the melee machines have no caster support they should be easy pickings finish them off and then do whatever else you have to do in the enemy base since the tower knows you are there and has raised the alarm.

-The lizardfolk are basically irrelevant as long as you still have time left on your fly spell if you're feeling greedy head over to the bell tower and kill their asses otherwise get the hell out of dodge (invis and Dim. Door help here)

-bask in the afterglow as you have just beaten D&D on lunatic mode.

[Mr. GC]

That is actually about 85% accurate.

Take a lesson gentleman. You just got wtfpwned by Mistborn. Hard.

[Mistborn]

That is actually about 85% accurate.

Take a lesson gentleman. You just got wtfpwned by Mistborn. Hard.

Ararara Mr. GC thinks I'm good at D&D

Doushio.

[nockermensch]

That is actually about 85% accurate.

Take a lesson gentleman. You just got wtfpwned by Mistborn. Hard.

Ararara Mr. GC thinks I'm good at D&D

Doushio.

I declare you husband and wife.

[Fuchs]

You don't get it still. We don't know what kind of enemies were fought. We don't know how they fought - if at all.

What we do know is not really hardcore at all. Melee machines? That sounds like stuff being rejected as basket weavers if those were PCs for a harcore party. A Dragon optimized for melee combat so it's a closet troll? Duh. A set up where you can easily scry and isolate the main defenders so you can defeat them one by one?

You call that lunatic mode?

Sheesh. That's holding the guys' hands.

[nockermensch]

Fuchs, please.

This thread has been nothing but Mr. GC and Lord Mistborn doing their best Kimoi Girls' impression. Any "serious" discussion (there are not enough quotes to put around that serious) here is over, so lets bask on Internet Stupidity for a while and move on.

Picture related, it's GC and Misty in this thread:

[Mr. GC]

You don't get it still. We don't know what kind of enemies were fought. We don't know how they fought - if at all.

What we do know is not really hardcore at all. Melee machines? That sounds like stuff being rejected as basket weavers if those were PCs for a harcore party. A Dragon optimized for melee combat so it's a closet troll? Duh. A set up where you can easily scry and isolate the main defenders so you can defeat them one by one?

You call that lunatic mode?

Sheesh. That's holding the guys' hands.

See where I said it was 85% accurate? Take a guess as to what parts were wrong. Actually, you don't have to guess, I've already said some of them.

I'll even give you a freebie to cure you of your full retard. I've already specifically stated one of the dragon's spells is "its melee attacks are now ranged". Fighting it outside, where it can use that range and mobility is actually the worst idea, unless you can just supernova it down then it doesn't matter so much.

[...You Lost Me]

Yeah, that line is probably the funniest thing I have seen on TGD since Orion's line about shadzar innovating on the frontier of punctuation science. That, however, was trying to be funny.

I think that was actually midnight_v he was joking about. It was hilarious either way.

Also, I don't even get this thread. I can't what GC and Fuchs are yelling about at this point, because it's so far buried under vague things and missing details or the pretending that the details totally weren't missing.

Is there someone that can sparknote me?

[Mistborn]

Is there someone that can sparknote me?

GC is basically saying the game should be all hard mode all the time in order to punish people who are unwilling to properly optimize their characters and tactics. He also posted an example of a hard scenario that is still beatable. Essentially GC would prefer that D&D games be more like Dark Souls hard ass hell but still in a fair way. The more I read about his game the more I regret giving up the chance to join a PBP game he invited me to

[...You Lost Me]

Thanks LM. I just finished reading the last three pages.

This is fucking good stuff--I nearly choked on my bagel.

[Roog]

He also posted an example of a hard scenario that is still beatable.

Where is that posted? I don't see it in this thread.

[rampaging-poet]

This post from the second page.

[Roog]

That's not a scenario.

That's a brief description of a couple of run throughs.

[DSMatticus]

So the first person throws a Dispel, to bring their defenses down to "no longer near invincible" level, and then the rest follow up before the enemy can react and they die very quickly.

Seriously, let's hear the build/spell suite that results in ULTIMATE DEFENSE. And then we'll run through this thread and see what it's vulnerable to, and then move on from there.

Now the rest of your post is pointless, stupid avoidance, which is a shame because it's the only part of the conversation that isn't solely you trying to dickwave. It's an actual discussion of what role failure and punishment have in TTRPG's. But you're pussying out of that to hide behind 'get on my level' bullshit too. So you're basically worthless for discussion and are an obnoxiously stupid asshole to boot. Great. So let's just do the thing where you describe the godly defense build and they turn out to fail hard to really obvious spells and then we can all move on.

[Kaelik]

Is there someone that can sparknote me?

GC is basically saying the game should be all hard mode all the time in order to punish people who are unwilling to properly optimize their characters and tactics. He also posted an example of a hard scenario that is still beatable. Essentially GC would prefer that D&D games be more like Dark Souls hard ass hell but still in a fair way. The more I read about his game the more I regret giving up the chance to join a PBP game he invited me to

Actually, what GC is arguing is that you should never ever hold back even a little bit as MC, because to do so is badwrongfun.

And then it turns out that he holds back too. (Or is just not very good at D&D, whatever).

GC's main point is fucking stupid for people who MC and are better at optimization than their players. Honestly, it's also stupid for people just as good, because MCs get to use stuff that PCs can't use, like Dragons with Epic Spellcasting feat starting from CR 15, at will Game Disjunction at CR 9, or CL 23 Blasphemy on a Choker at CR 10.

Now, if his point was actually that "you should be hard but fair" he would have to explain a definition of fair that:

1) Involved holding back and not using stuff that is "too good" like what I described above, or apparently Shivering Touch, because he said that of course that is banned.
2) Involves never under any circumstances holding back enough to allow a party of core Druid/Wizard/Cleric/Druid played at only mediocre skill level to succeed in the adventure.
3) Isn't obviously grounded in his own hatred of other people having fun that is badwrong.

[StormBringer]

It's probably Ironybringer or Sacrosanct, since they're the prime idiots but there are several other possibilities.

I'm pretty sure you already knew I had an account here, and there is no need to hide behind a sockpuppet. The Law of Averages clearly hates you, because you are batting .1000 for utterly failing at everything. Purely by accident, you should have gotten something right by now.

[Mistborn]

I'm pretty sure you already knew I had an account here, and there is no need to hide behind a sockpuppet. The Law of Averages clearly hates you, because you are batting .1000 for utterly failing at everything. Purely by accident, you should have gotten something right by now.

Welcome back to the Den Ironybringer. Your complementary barrel of cocks has arrived.

As for Kaelik's point. Obviously there are thing's that need to be banned in the name of the game staying playable. The thrust of GC's argument is that there is a higher difficulty setting than most people play at. Most people are coddled by their DM with constant easy mode and in GC's mind the encourages aberrant behavior and to be honest I'm starting to agree with him. I wound say that DM coddling helps create the dysfuntinal individuals we see on the Paizo forums and theRPGsite,