You do fucking win at D&D.

[Mr. GC]

Yeah, this would be more fun if you could pretend to stay on topic. The questions is, is Shivering Touch too good, which requires us to compare it to other comaprable wizard spells--the opportunity cost for using it. As such, talking about the generabl awesomeness of wizards or how you can totally win various encounters with repeated casting is irrelevant. It really shouldn't surprise anyone that if you give yourself unlimited castings of an 8th-level spell effect, you can defeat most opposition. Heck, if I can have hundreds of apprentices shooting wands I'd rather have Magic Missile. At least I could kill ghosts with it. Similarly, its not relevant to point out that a party of 4 can almost certainly disable a single vulnerable foe in one round using Shivering Touch. The relevant fact is this: You're spending 2 actions to remove one enemy from combat, unless they have any Psionics or Spell-like Abilities. The questions is, is that noticeably better than other offensive Wizard options? The answer is no.

Spectral Hand lasts a minute per level which, in any dungeon/base type situation is at least two fights and possibly the entire dungeon (especially if you lesser extend rod it).

So in effect it's one third level spell + 1 per target. And that's slightly high at 8, but then it's more or less assured of working whereas other spells are likely to have lower success rates especially on the enemies you mention.

Likewise, you still have to CdG to finish them off so the only thing that changes when doing this to a Psionics/SLA user is that if they get a turn between effective kill and official kill, they can still attack. That's it.

On an unrelated note, Spectral Hand sucks because is forces you to use STR. Let's be wildly charitable and give our 8th level Wizard a natural 10 Str, Bull's Strength, Haste, and Heroism. That's a +9 attack bonus. That's fine for punking dragons, of course, but it's absolutely not a reliable kill on appropriate opposition in general. At CR 7-9and below, you have

• Air Elemental, Touch AC 17
• Erinyes Touch 15 (can wear magic items)
• Belker (Touch 14)
• Avoral (Touch 16-18, miss chance)
• and of course the good old "8th level goblin rogue with cat's grace and a +2 ring, Touch AC 19

It's a melee touch attack. If you wanted to burn a feat and use Dex you totally could. You also forgot to mention Spectral Hand gives +2. And then, ignoring that to hit bonuses are a dime a dozen if you care at all and therefore this Wizard could be pimping around +22 at this level without trying all that hard (this is the part where you noob out and say this is because of True Strike, demonstrating your stupidity), if you do miss, you still have the charge and can just try again. Oh wait, Haste gives an extra attack. How about that? You can't use it on the same turn you cast the spell, but if you're already holding that charge you get two attempts.

I actually don't think it requires Haste or Bull's Strength or any of that though, because to hit bonuses are again a dime a dozen for a caster. And that will just smoke all of those losers, even the lol Rogue.

[Mr. GC]

IWBTG is a physical challenge. It requires reflexes and dexterity in addition to pattern recognition and memorization. Speed and precision are important factors.

And if you programmed an Auto It script to press the right buttons at the right times the bot could win it. No one would call that game easily especially when you either flawless victory it or lose and yet it's beatable by a script. How do you explain that?

If you used an Auto It script to play the game then it would be easy. It would, in fact, be boring because you're just watching a script execute.

IWTBTG is pressing buttons. Pressing buttons is the entire game. If you're not pressing buttons, if buttons are being pressed on their own, then there isn't a challenge. There isn't even a game.

And D&D is about making decisions and then executing them. This is the entire game. If you're not doing that, if it's happening on its own, then there isn't a challenge. There isn't even a game.

So you see, "can be played by a script" doesn't prevent something from being difficult. A chess computer is a goddamn script, just a very advanced one. And those have played against the best human players in the world and won.

Randomness isn't the point. The point is that players punch you and you don't punch them. There is no physical action and not time pressure. The game is entirely about decision-making and story-crafting.

What the fuck?

[sabs]

I have to say, Touch AC that's not in the 30's just isn't playing. It's fairly trivial for a spell caster who can cast 6th level spells to get his touch attack to have a +15-20 on the to hit. With a D20 rng, that's more than enough to hit a 19 AC, without even rolling the die.

[Orion]

So to recap GC's Shivering Touch build, for the low cost of:

• Weapon Finesse (or that stupid feat-granting spell, I suppose)
• Collecting buffs to an otherwise worthless stat (attack rolls)
• a 6th-level spell effect
• keeping an otherwise unhelpful 1 minute/level buff running
• A standard action followed by a full round action

You can reliably

• Kill one dude, if he's not an undead or a frost giant, or a creature with spell-like abilities capable of escaping or fucking you over in 1 round

I'm not seeing the problem here.

[Mr. GC]

I have to say, Touch AC that's not in the 30's just isn't playing. It's fairly trivial for a spell caster who can cast 6th level spells to get his touch attack to have a +15-20 on the to hit. With a D20 rng, that's more than enough to hit a 19 AC, without even rolling the die.

Who said anything about 6th level spells? I'm still assuming level 8. Since he listed stuff around level 8, that's actually reasonable. A level 11 caster, not so much.

[Mr. GC]

So to recap GC's Shivering Touch build, for the low cost of:

• Weapon Finesse (or that stupid feat-granting spell, I suppose)
• Collecting buffs to an otherwise worthless stat (attack rolls)
• a 6th-level spell effect
• keeping an otherwise unhelpful 1 minute/level buff running
• A standard action followed by a full round action

You can reliably

• Kill one dude, if he's not an undead or a frost giant, or a creature with spell-like abilities capable of escaping or fucking you over in 1 round

I'm not seeing the problem here.

For the actual cost of:

Don't need Weapon Finesse, though you could take it I guess.
Someone taking Leadership to get a Bard to follow them around and be Spoony, and give like +10 to hit to everyone.
A 3rd level spell effect at the beginning of the dungeon (who the fuck keeps saying 6th).
A 3rd level spell per target.

You make non CI non undead things die in one hit very consistently regardless of their stats.

Let me guess: Wizards don't have feats to burn?

[Orion]

You did, since as per earlier discussion these are Maximized Shivering Touches. Now, I'm well aware that various metamagic cheese allows you to do this relatively easily at level 8, but I feel compelled to point out the nominal level value of the effect as a reminder of what else you could be doing with your pile of free metamagic.

[John Magnum]

Hang on, you knock out Shivering Touch but you keep Leadership in? How is Leadership not overcentralizing?

[Mr. GC]

You did, since as per earlier discussion these are Maximized Shivering Touches. Now, I'm well aware that various metamagic cheese allows you to do this relatively easily at level 8, but I feel compelled to point out the nominal level value of the effect as a reminder of what else you could be doing with your pile of free metamagic.

I pointed out that it was possible to both Maximize and Empower it without raising the spell level.

Now at level 8 you probably couldn't afford both a Lesser Maximize Rod and an Empowered Spellshard, or if you could it'd be most of your wealth. You could definitely get one of those though and in any case at no point in time are you raising the spell level.

Hang on, you knock out Shivering Touch but you keep Leadership in? How is Leadership not overcentralizing?

Well first of all we're talking about a hypothetical "Shivering Touch is in, what does this mean?" metagame. So your post is entirely irrelevant.

[ModelCitizen]

Five posts in an hour whoooo!!!!!

I propose a drinking game. Partially because the grocery store next to my apartment started stocking Lagunitas Little Sumpin', and this shit is delicious.

[ETortoise]

If you used an Auto It script to play the game then it would be easy. It would, in fact, be boring because you're just watching a script execute.

IWTBTG is pressing buttons. Pressing buttons is the entire game. If you're not pressing buttons, if buttons are being pressed on their own, then there isn't a challenge. There isn't even a game.

And D&D is about making decisions and then executing them. This is the entire game. If you're not doing that, if it's happening on its own, then there isn't a challenge. There isn't even a game.

GC, I don't know if you realized that you've proven Hyzmarca's point.

He was saying originally that if your players go through the same script (scry and die ambush) every time then they are following a script and that the game isn't truly hard. It's just a binary challenge.

After going back and forth on IWTBTG you say the above line that D&D is about solving challenges. If your players have to kill the baddies with their scry or die ambush script before there is any adaptation by team monster then they are not making decisions. They just made one, and are now executing it. Thus both you and Hyzmarca seem to agree that playing a game using a script isn't really playing it.

Now, you could have argued that your players have to come up with new, fiendishly inventive plans for each enemy; that the challenge in D&D for your group is creating the perfect plan.

But you didn't.

[Mr. GC]

If you used an Auto It script to play the game then it would be easy. It would, in fact, be boring because you're just watching a script execute.

IWTBTG is pressing buttons. Pressing buttons is the entire game. If you're not pressing buttons, if buttons are being pressed on their own, then there isn't a challenge. There isn't even a game.

And D&D is about making decisions and then executing them. This is the entire game. If you're not doing that, if it's happening on its own, then there isn't a challenge. There isn't even a game.

GC, I don't know if you realized that you've proven Hyzmarca's point.

He was saying originally that if your players go through the same script (scry and die ambush) every time then they are following a script and that the game isn't truly hard. It's just a binary challenge.

After going back and forth on IWTBTG you say the above line that D&D is about solving challenges. If your players have to kill the baddies with their scry or die ambush script before there is any adaptation by team monster then they are not making decisions. They just made one, and are now executing it. Thus both you and Hyzmarca seem to agree that playing a game using a script isn't really playing it.

Now, you could have argued that your players have to come up with new, fiendishly inventive plans for each enemy; that the challenge in D&D for your group is creating the perfect plan.

But you didn't.

Once again I ask, who said anything about Scrying? In fact I specifically haven't said anything about it, because while it is possible at this level range it is not practical for a number of reasons.

And see, because I'm not actually talking about scrying, because I'm talking about fights, and sometimes novas and am not talking about scrying what that means is that first, things are a lot more complex and second, even if a script could do it that doesn't mean anything, that doesn't make it less difficult.

You see, when you respond to the things I'm actually saying, you realize that things don't work the way you're claiming now at all.

[ETortoise]

[quote="Mr GC]Things are a lot more complex and second, even if a script could do it that doesn't mean anything, that doesn't make it less difficult. [/quote]

Well shit! Why didn't you just say "my players don't/can't use a script to defeat my encounters?" Why go on a ridiculous tangent where you compare a reflex-based game to a turn-based one in ease of automation? Where, through your choice of which argument to engage, you imply that your players do have to follow a script? Why not just give an example of actual play?

Honestly, I'm not a bad enough dude in D&D to guess how your game plays based on drips of information. I haven't played a game of 3.5 in at least 3 years. If you want to talk about D&D hard mode and have an actual discussion then you have to spell things out a bit more.

For what it's worth I think there's an interesting discussion to be had on how winning/losing works in RPGs. I've definitely had a lot of fun playing in a low level game where the PCs were basically starving to death and stopped to loot the enemy's kitchen for stale bread. I've also been at the table when a player was gutted because his character fulfilled her life's dream before the player wanted it to happen.

[Mr. GC]

[quote="Mr GC]Things are a lot more complex and second, even if a script could do it that doesn't mean anything, that doesn't make it less difficult.

Well shit! Why didn't you just say "my players don't/can't use a script to defeat my encounters?" Why go on a ridiculous tangent where you compare a reflex-based game to a turn-based one in ease of automation? Where, through your choice of which argument to engage, you imply that your players do have to follow a script? Why not just give an example of actual play?[/quote]

I said two things. 1: I don't really consider the game scriptable. 2: If it were, that still doesn't make it not hard. The rest was people sperging and me damage controlling.

Because it'd be ignored. Like all the other examples I gave. Like where I asked where did I say anything about scrying, and people ignored that and kept assuming scrying.

See if you want me to spam massive informational walls of fucking text, you first have to convince me I'm not wasting my time.

Honestly, I'm not a bad enough dude in D&D to guess how your game plays based on drips of information. I haven't played a game of 3.5 in at least 3 years. If you want to talk about D&D hard mode and have an actual discussion then you have to spell things out a bit more.

Well see, that's the thing. Good and experienced players figure out a lot when given a little bit of information. I'm giving far more here than I'd give my actual players and they'd figure out most of this shit if just given the skeleton of it. That's who I'm used to talking to. Now the Den portrays itself as a board full of experts and sure, there's some here. There's also a disturbingly high number of basket weavers. And then there's people like you that, while probably not a basket weaver aren't an expert either. It's still going to go over your head.

As for that particular scenario... there are actually many ways it could go other than the one the good party took and the one the bad party took.

There are also a number of common threads. You want passive, active, and reactive defenses on everyone, you want as many people as possible attacking as few enemies as possible (which includes, among many other things taking enemies out systematically and as quickly as possible before they are ready so they don't pile up... this does not necessarily involve scrying and often, scrying is actually a terrible idea).

You want some very strong offense (otherwise, you don't kill things fast enough) in addition to those high defenses (otherwise the moment an enemy moves you die) and that's just the basics.

You, as in the player also have to be good at deductive reasoning. If you can't work out that "One who turns nature against you" = Druid, you're probably not even going to understand what is currently happening and why... and that means you can't counter it.

[Fuchs]

You're still hiding behind cheap excuses when being called to provide solid information about your encounters and campaign, instead of empty boasting.

[K]

Honestly, I'm not a bad enough dude in D&D to guess how your game plays based on drips of information. I haven't played a game of 3.5 in at least 3 years. If you want to talk about D&D hard mode and have an actual discussion then you have to spell things out a bit more.

It's pretty clear that he gets really easy encounters and he thinks that they are super-hard.

I mean, Creeping Cold in a spell-storing arrow is supposed to be big noise with its average of 7 points of damage (save for half) a round for three rounds? Shadow Demons, a CR 8 monster that is doing between 7-14 points of damage when all its attacks hit, is a killer monster and not a total chump? Wind Wall is considered a good use of a 3rd level slot?

[nockermensch]

Honestly, I'm not a bad enough dude in D&D to guess how your game plays based on drips of information. I haven't played a game of 3.5 in at least 3 years. If you want to talk about D&D hard mode and have an actual discussion then you have to spell things out a bit more.

It's pretty clear that he gets really easy encounters and he thinks that they are super-hard.

I mean, Creeping Cold in a spell-storing arrow is supposed to be big noise with its average of 7 points of damage (save for half) a round for three rounds? Shadow Demons, a CR 8 monster that is doing between 7-14 points of damage when all its attacks hit, is a killer monster and not a total chump? Wind Wall is considered a good use of a 3rd level slot?

But did you consider the CR of a Bell Tower? They totally one-shotted that one.

[infected slut princess]

The only people who build their character around Shivering Touch are those who want to roleplay molesters who fondle people to death with their cold hands.

[ModelCitizen]

In fairness, some of them mostly want to fondle dragons.

[StormBringer]

Oh hey, came back to get beaten like the bitch you are again, or will you run the fuck away when that happens?

Uh huh. Why don't you explain to the poor deluded fools here why weighted averages are intellectually dishonest? It went so well for you before.

[StormBringer]

Welcome back to the Den Ironybringer. Your complementary barrel of cocks has arrived.

You two really think IronyBringer is some kind of devastating insult? Really? I mean, I gave you a list over at theRPGsite if you are having problems. I am sure anyone here would be able to offer a few tips, too.

[hyzmarca]

See if you want me to spam massive informational walls of fucking text, you first have to convince me I'm not wasting my time.
.

You don't need a massive wall of text, but "a dragon" isn't really all that much information. There are 71 varieties of canon non-epic dragons in 3.5 D&D, 75 if you include fan-converted Spelljammer material and 12 age categories. That gives us 852 possible dragons, not including variations in spells and equipment.

[Roog]

I'm giving far more here than I'd give my actual players and they'd figure out most of this shit if just given the skeleton of it.

So your players don't even get to see their own character sheets?

Because that's the only way they could have less information than what you have posted.

[Mr. GC]

Honestly, I'm not a bad enough dude in D&D to guess how your game plays based on drips of information. I haven't played a game of 3.5 in at least 3 years. If you want to talk about D&D hard mode and have an actual discussion then you have to spell things out a bit more.

It's pretty clear that he gets really easy encounters and he thinks that they are super-hard.

I mean, Creeping Cold in a spell-storing arrow is supposed to be big noise with its average of 7 points of damage (save for half) a round for three rounds? Shadow Demons, a CR 8 monster that is doing between 7-14 points of damage when all its attacks hit, is a killer monster and not a total chump? Wind Wall is considered a good use of a 3rd level slot?

Try 1d6/2d6/3d6/4d6/5d6/6d6. On top of what the other effects are doing.

7-14 damage? Is that what you think it does?

*checks, sees it actually does around 100 with its nova and half that otherwise*

And you think it's CR 8, that's amazing... Protip: I said shadow demon, not Shadow Demon.

Oh hey, came back to get beaten like the bitch you are again, or will you run the fuck away when that happens?

Uh huh. Why don't you explain to the poor deluded fools here why weighted averages are intellectually dishonest? It went so well for you before.

That would prove there are retarded basket weavers on the Den. I already know that.

See if you want me to spam massive informational walls of fucking text, you first have to convince me I'm not wasting my time.
.

You don't need a massive wall of text, but "a dragon" isn't really all that much information. There are 71 varieties of canon non-epic dragons in 3.5 D&D, 75 if you include fan-converted Spelljammer material and 12 age categories. That gives us 852 possible dragons, not including variations in spells and equipment.

A dragon (implied: true) tells you 90% of what you need to know since barring those few that can't cast spells, or those few that actually have a breath weapon that does something (and you can safely rule out pyroclastic because those wouldn't live in a damn lake) they all fight about the same.

Let me guess: You will now act as if you do not understand emergent gameplay?

I'm giving far more here than I'd give my actual players and they'd figure out most of this shit if just given the skeleton of it.

So your players don't even get to see their own character sheets?

Because that's the only way they could have less information than what you have posted.

I mean about the enemy situation smartass.

[Fuchs]

And once again Mr. GC refuses to state even the level of his opponents, or what exactly he used. That he thinks "A dragon" tells us 90% of what it can do is ridiculous given the wide differences in abilities between dragons of various age categories.

Yeah, pure troll.