You do fucking win at D&D.

[Mistborn]

And once again Mr. GC refuses to state even the level of his opponents, or what exactly he used. That he thinks "A dragon" tells us 90% of what it can do is ridiculous given the wide differences in abilities between dragons of various age categories.

Yeah, pure troll.

Le sigh, Optimized Dragon tactics are use spells like Wraithstrike and Bloodwind and murder people with their full attack like a giant scaly gish. Dragon type is pretty irreverent in that scenario Let me get out a one of my dragon statblocks to illustrate.

Vexalon Juvenile Loredrake Blue Dragon Sorc 1 (CR 9)
DETECTION – [Low Light vision Darkvison 120ft Blindsense 60ft], Listen +12, Spot +12 Init +1;
DEFENSES – AC 24, touch 10 , flat-footed 23; hp 149 (16 HD); Immune;Electricity, Sleep, Paralysis Resist;
FORT +13, REF +10, WILL +14;
ACTIONS – Spd 40ft. Burrow 20ft Fly 150ft; Melee Bite +21 (2d6+6) 2 Claws +19 (1d8+3) 2 Wings +19 (1d6+3) Tail +19 (1d8+9); Ranged; Space 10ft.; Reach 10 ft.; Base Atk +15; Grapple +25; Atk Options; Power Attack SA Breath Weapon (8d8 electricity DC 21);
Spells (CL 4th) (6/7/4)
2nd -Wratihstrike
1st -Silent Image, Blood Wind, Shield of Faith
0-Resistance, Light, Prestidigitation, Caltrops, Detect Magic, Read Magic
Combat Feats ; Combat Gear
SQ Dragon traits,
STR ,23 DEX ,12 CON ,19 INT ,12 WIS ,17 CHA ,18
FEATS: Power Attack, Multiattack, Hover, Law Devotion, Maximize Breath, Sculpt Breath.
SKILLS: Spot +12 Listen +12 Bluff +13 Spellcraft +13 Knowledge (local) +10 Knowledge (Arcana +10) Appraise +10 Preform (Breakdacing) +9 Balance +6

Given what I've heard about his campaigns I'd be disappointed if the dragon wasn't at least this tough.

[Mr. GC]

His dragon is weak but exhibits the concept decently well.

The differences between dragons are:

Breath weapons (only matters for the few with a relevant breath weapon, otherwise they'll never use this).
Elemental stuff (also never matters, good characters don't blast).
Some minor other abilities that don't even start having a chance to make a difference until very high levels... which we're not talking about.

Otherwise? Black, blue, red... they're all going to be doing Flyby Pounces on you or spamming Blood Wind, etc.

[Fuchs]

Mistborn - he doesn't ever state stuff like "I had a CR X Dragon". Don't you get it? Age category is relevant. Type is relevant as soon as enviroment comes into play.

Mr. GC refuses to provide any information that could be used to prove or disprove his claims. The only conclusion that leads to is that he is in fact a troll who can't back up his claims.

Or can you explain why he won't provide levels, classes, gear and tacics for his prime example of a hardcore encounter?

"My low level character beat a high-level demon by himself - but no, I won't tell you what class I used, what gear, what tactics, and what kind of demon it was, not even the level and CR."

Would you believe such shit? If no, why do you believe Mr. GC?

[nockermensch]

Humoring the troll again, because this is too funny:

The subject may take a full attack action to use one of its natural weapons as if it were a thrown weapon with a 20-foot range increment.

Now I don't have Savage Species with me for about 10 years now, but assuming that site has the actual text and not some gimped version of the spell, what exactly is so Lunatic Tier about Blood Wind?

Natural attacks don't iterate. Dragon has to pick one of his many natural attacks to use, so he chose Tail, because the 1.5x str bonus. With Blood Wind he can now spend one full attack action to project ONE tail slam per round as a thrown weapon.

Dafuq?

[Kaelik]

Blood Wind was reprinted in the SpC. That version I think doesn't suck (fll attack), but I'm not going to look it up to verify.

That said, GC is still an idiot who refuses to even tell us what level his players are.

Of course, non of how hardcore his encounters are or are not has anything to do with how he thinks that people playing a Druid/Druid/Wizard/Cleric party at average skill should be TPKed, even though by definition, half of all people must play below average skill.

[Mr. GC]

Blood Wind was reprinted in the SpC. That version I think doesn't suck (fll attack), but I'm not going to look it up to verify.

That said, GC is still an idiot who refuses to even tell us what level his players are.

Of course, non of how hardcore his encounters are or are not has anything to do with how he thinks that people playing a Druid/Druid/Wizard/Cleric party at average skill should be TPKed, even though by definition, half of all people must play below average skill.

It's swift action, make a full attack with natural weapons or unarmed strikes as a ranged weapon with a 20 foot range increment. Dragons have to hits of +Fuck off and die, so taking a -4 or even a -6 to hang back and air box is very reasonable.

And because you are still less intelligent than Mistborn, who has already correctly answered that question the answer is 8, though you can get here at 7 depending on what order you do things in.

And 95% of tabletop gamers are terrible players, so yeah the half that are below average should be dying horribly and those that are only at average are simply going to get overwhelmed by "lunatic mode" or whatever the hell you want to call it because average here is a pretty fucking low standard.

This thread also proves exactly why I am justified in believing that the basket weavers should have their terrible characters die horribly.

[Kaelik]

And because you are still less intelligent than Mistborn, who has already correctly answered that question the answer is 8, though you can get here at 7 depending on what order you do things in.

Why didn't your level 8 party have to face at will Game Disjunction Golem? Are you holding back?

And 95% of tabletop gamers are terrible players, so yeah the half that are below average should be dying horribly and those that are only at average are simply going to get overwhelmed by "lunatic mode" or whatever the hell you want to call it because average here is a pretty fucking low standard.

So... you think it is objectively wrong for people to have fun playing table top RPGs, and that the only correct way to play is for 95% of the people to never have fun.

And you don't see why we think you are an idiot?

[JigokuBosatsu]

I've also been at the table when a player was gutted because his character fulfilled her life's dream before the player wanted it to happen.

Like this?

[Mr. GC]

And because you are still less intelligent than Mistborn, who has already correctly answered that question the answer is 8, though you can get here at 7 depending on what order you do things in.

Why didn't your level 8 party have to face at will Game Disjunction Golem? Are you holding back?

And 95% of tabletop gamers are terrible players, so yeah the half that are below average should be dying horribly and those that are only at average are simply going to get overwhelmed by "lunatic mode" or whatever the hell you want to call it because average here is a pretty fucking low standard.

So... you think it is objectively wrong for people to have fun playing table top RPGs, and that the only correct way to play is for 95% of the people to never have fun.

And you don't see why we think you are an idiot?

I think it is objectively wrong for people to be as stupid as you are, and I think the correct way to be is not stupid.

Hey look Ironybringer, you have a friend!

[nockermensch]

And because you are still less intelligent than Mistborn, who has already correctly answered that question the answer is 8, though you can get here at 7 depending on what order you do things in.

Why didn't your level 8 party have to face at will Game Disjunction Golem? Are you holding back?

And 95% of tabletop gamers are terrible players, so yeah the half that are below average should be dying horribly and those that are only at average are simply going to get overwhelmed by "lunatic mode" or whatever the hell you want to call it because average here is a pretty fucking low standard.

So... you think it is objectively wrong for people to have fun playing table top RPGs, and that the only correct way to play is for 95% of the people to never have fun.

And you don't see why we think you are an idiot?

I think it is objectively wrong for people to be as stupid as you are, and I think the correct way to be is not stupid.

Hey look Ironybringer, you have a friend!

Lets hold a mirror to what you just said: Do you have any friends? At very best, you got something akin to a cult, where you convinced a bunch of people that you're playing True Hardcore D&D, that everybody else Is Not On Your Level and that they should play as you demand or they Fail Horribly Forever.

At worst, you're just trolling alone on the internet. Seriously, GC. Your name means "Gimp Culler" and you fucking post at the fucking TheRPGSite with a fucking Flame Warrior avatar. I get the Flame Warriors are seriously old Internet 1.0 culture, so most people don't get it, so here's the link to the picture you used there. You're a self-styled kung fu master, and that is kind of the acme of sadness and arrogance. In the real world, where the other people live and talk with each other, other people are supposed to give you titles like that to recognize your past performances. What you did instead was to buy a trophy and call yourself a winner. That's troll logic or sociopathic behavior, no other choices. Pick one.

You somehow managed to put Kaelik, StormBringer, K and Fuchs at the same side in a discussion, which just gives credibility to my theory that you're actually a disguised basket-weaver in a false flag op. Give this thread a few more days and everybody will just play Munchausen instead, because D&D got unbearably silly by association with you.

[Red Archon]

For this bizarre personality type, for a few years, being called "sociopath" is a compliment, so you shouldn't toss that around.

I think Mr. GC is something online anonymity, BG and TGD bred, sort of an extreme outcome of the internet charop culture. At first I thought he was just one of those people who go absolutely nuts when they find forums that don't punish flaming and swearing, but I think this is sort of a new breed of neckbeards. Absolute worship of one game system coupled with some internet-created personality disorder. He's sort of overpowering the rest of you guys because he's so incredibly focused on "CR: Impossible PVE", while you try to find some rhyme or reason, different angles and a wholesome approach to the game. What the rest of you seem to fail to realise is that he doesn't factor in "fun" or "adventures" or "other people." The fact that me mentioning those three words will provoke him to call me a "basketweaver" is fairly good proof of that.

[Mr. GC]

Lets hold a mirror to what you just said: Do you have any friends? At very best, you got something akin to a cult, where you convinced a bunch of people that you're playing True Hardcore D&D, that everybody else Is Not On Your Level and that they should play as you demand or they Fail Horribly Forever.

You seem mad. You mad bro? Just because you suck at D&D doesn't mean that everyone hates those that don't like you do.

At worst, you're just trolling alone on the internet. Seriously, GC. Your name means "Gimp Culler" and you fucking post at the fucking TheRPGSite with a fucking Flame Warrior avatar. I get the Flame Warriors are seriously old Internet 1.0 culture, so most people don't get it, so here's the link to the picture you used there. You're a self-styled kung fu master, and that is kind of the acme of sadness and arrogance. In the real world, where the other people live and talk with each other, other people are supposed to give you titles like that to recognize your past performances. What you did instead was to buy a trophy and call yourself a winner. That's troll logic or sociopathic behavior, no other choices. Pick one.

Or I am being facetious for the sake of humor. Given that this is the board where people tell each other to suck a barrel of cocks the same way most people tell each other hello this is the last place I expected anyone to bitch about that, but then, since you insist on bringing That Other Board into it is encountering hypocrites on boards really a surprise?

Now you can say that's not funny, but to get sand in your mangina because someone uses derisive terms to describe bad players, makes use of a self descriptive username, and a funny avatar on a different board? This just makes you seem the easily offended tool.

You somehow managed to put Kaelik, StormBringer, K and Fuchs at the same side in a discussion, which just gives credibility to my theory that you're actually a disguised basket-weaver in a false flag op. Give this thread a few more days and everybody will just play Munchausen instead, because D&D got unbearably silly by association with you.

Of those four, three are proven hardcore basket weavers so I'm not really surprised by this at all. No idea why Kaelik is going along with their foolishness though.

[nockermensch]

Lets hold a mirror to what you just said: Do you have any friends? At very best, you got something akin to a cult, where you convinced a bunch of people that you're playing True Hardcore D&D, that everybody else Is Not On Your Level and that they should play as you demand or they Fail Horribly Forever.

You seem mad. You mad bro? Just because you suck at D&D doesn't mean that everyone hates those that don't like you do.

Come on now, cite somebody else that can defend your posture by this point. As for mad, my jimmies remain firmly unrustled, but because people actually google the Den for reference in gaming, I believe it's proper that your ridiculous position is properly ridiculed for posterity.

regarding this fucking thing here, that by now I hope is common knowledge on the other site

Or I am being facetious for the sake of humor. Given that this is the board where people tell each other to suck a barrel of cocks the same way most people tell each other hello this is the last place I expected anyone to bitch about that, but then, since you insist on bringing That Other Board into it is encountering hypocrites on boards really a surprise?

Now you can say that's not funny, but to get sand in your mangina because someone uses derisive terms to describe bad players, makes use of a self descriptive username, and a funny avatar on a different board? This just makes you seem the easily offended tool.

Oh, so now you're also the evil clown? Because I don't have the slightest idea of how to wield humor, I'm completely at a loss here!

Here's the thing, dude, humor has to be done right, or you'll end laughing alone, something I suspect is already happening by now. Everybody else here is just laughing at you.

You somehow managed to put Kaelik, StormBringer, K and Fuchs at the same side in a discussion, which just gives credibility to my theory that you're actually a disguised basket-weaver in a false flag op. Give this thread a few more days and everybody will just play Munchausen instead, because D&D got unbearably silly by association with you.

Of those four, three are proven hardcore basket weavers so I'm not really surprised by this at all. No idea why Kaelik is going along with their foolishness though.

Yeah, funny how you have no idea.

[quanta]

Nockermensch, Fuchs, etc, Why are you guys bothering to respond to it anyways?

[Mr. GC]

Oh, so now you're also the evil clown? Because I don't have the slightest idea of how to wield humor, I'm completely at a loss here!

Here's the thing, dude, humor has to be done right, or you'll end laughing alone, something I suspect is already happening by now. Everybody else here is just laughing at you.

Yawn. Translation: I don't like your sense of humor so I'm going to take everything you say seriously and literally.

Yeah, funny how you have no idea.

If you're claiming Stormbringer isn't just save us all the pain of seeing you again and eat your modem for dinner. K and Fuchs have also gone in record to say some hilariously awful things in defense of basket weavers. So that just leaves Kaelik as the only "why is he in the same group". I'd say I have all the ideas. And that's the problem. Aside from Frank, where are the other people with ideas? More bitching about me doesn't count.

[CapnTthePirateG]

Aside from Frank, where are the other people with ideas? More bitching about me doesn't count.

MAH PENIS IS BIGGA is not really a notable idea.

[Winnah]

So why the fuck aren't you using Lahm's Finger Darts? Lower level and does not require buff rounds, leadership or attack rolls.

[Mr. GC]

So why the fuck aren't you using Lahm's Finger Darts? Lower level and does not require buff rounds, leadership or attack rolls.

Because then you need a high CL before it starts doing anything and constant ability damage healing on yourself, whereas Shivering Touch, you just go.

[Winnah]

No. Fuck you. Ability Damage healing is not a fucking excuse. You play in a high op environment. That means you should expect to receive Ability Damage and have countermeasures in place to deal with that shit. It's not like it is hard.

Shivering Touch is a fucking touch spell. It requires an attack roll, even if you have time to buff to perform that attack at range.

LFD requires no attack roll. Greater range when unbuffed. Comes online earlier. Has a higher damage potential (like buffing CL is hard). Can affect Multiple Targets, which is really just economising the use of metamagic.

So why the fuck are you using an inferior option?

[Kaelik]

Oh that notorious basketweaver K.

He never has any ideas.

GC, you fucking hilarious dog. I heard you like trolling, so I put some trolling in your trolling.

[Mr. GC]

No. Fuck you. Ability Damage healing is not a fucking excuse. You play in a high op environment. That means you should expect to receive Ability Damage and have countermeasures in place to deal with that shit. It's not like it is hard.

Shivering Touch is a fucking touch spell. It requires an attack roll, even if you have time to buff to perform that attack at range.

LFD requires no attack roll. Greater range when unbuffed. Comes online earlier. Has a higher damage potential (like buffing CL is hard). Can affect Multiple Targets, which is really just economising the use of metamagic.

So why the fuck are you using an inferior option?

Do I have to do the fucking Haste PK rant here? Seriously, are you less reasonable than those other guys? Here, let me spell it out for you:

In order to do roughly the same stat damage you need level 10, 13 for slightly better, and there's an actual drawback. Before that it does less.

With Shivering Touch you just cast Spectral Hand at the beginning of the dungeon, have your songs running well in advance then just run through and OHKO, OHKO, OHKO...

[RobbyPants]

Seriously, GC. Your name means "Gimp Culler"

So he is Roy. I figured as much by the whole "objectivity" arguments, but the whole "GC" thing slipped by me.

[Mask_De_H]

Wow, dis ninja dum. One more notch in the "Ponytar = Bad News" ledger.

(No offense to virgil)
(Or Josh)
(I think)

[Roog]

I'm giving far more here than I'd give my actual players and they'd figure out most of this shit if just given the skeleton of it.

So your players don't even get to see their own character sheets?

Because that's the only way they could have less information than what you have posted.

I mean about the enemy situation smartass.

That's not just a smartass comment.

Your player's know the details of their characters, what they can handle, and what they might reasonably expect to run up against.

Yet when you post here, you expect people to deduce the nature and level of both the PCs and the monsters.

[Winnah]

What the fuck is this 'beginning of the dungeon' shit?

You mean in your campaign the monsters politely wait for you to come to them? When you're all nice, comfortable and ready? I pity the molly-coddling fuckface that has to hold your hand.

Boosting CL is easy. Doing so allows you to maximise the advantage of range and metamagic. It does not even have to cut into your permanant item budget. And while you're wasting a cohort on aquiring a fucking Bard, a serious optimiser will take the opportunity to get a secondary character that can do more than boost attack rolls.

Boost attack rolls? What the fuck are you doing you stupid prick? You could at least have made an attempt to double the output of your shitty, second rate touch spells. Do I need to spell this shit out for you?