You do fucking win at D&D.

[Kaelik]

he posts his houserules on the "It's my own invention forum." Given that according to him they broaden the number of good strategies in 3.5.

Nah, we hate people's 3e houserules that consist of banning a bunch of things that aren't overpowered.

Like Test of Spite or something. A list of houserules 90% of which make no sense. We had a thread about it. I'm sure that GC's would be the same, since he thinks Shivering Touch is broken.

[Mistborn]

Nah, we hate people's 3e houserules that consist of banning a bunch of things that aren't overpowered.

Like Test of Spite or something. A list of houserules 90% of which make no sense. We had a thread about it. I'm sure that GC's would be the same, since he thinks Shivering Touch is broken.

To be honest shivering touch is on my personal ban list. It can and will one-shot things with no save. That shit is bananas.

[Username17]

Nah, we hate people's 3e houserules that consist of banning a bunch of things that aren't overpowered.

Like Test of Spite or something. A list of houserules 90% of which make no sense. We had a thread about it. I'm sure that GC's would be the same, since he thinks Shivering Touch is broken.

To be honest shivering touch is on my personal ban list. It can and will one-shot things with no save. That shit is bananas.

How do you feel about acid fog?

-Username17

[Mistborn]

How do you feel about acid fog?

-Username17

If you're dying to acid fog damage there's no helping you.

Solid fog and it's derivatives are fine they don't so much "kill" people as put them in time out, they're also countered by teleportation and can be dispelled.

[Username17]

How do you feel about acid fog?

-Username17

If you're dying to acid fog damage there's no helping you.

Solid fog and it's derivatives are fine they don't so much "kill" people as put them in time out, they're also countered by teleportation and can be dispelled.

But acid fog causes ongoing damage as long as you stay in time out. You can dump ice walls or even wall of force on afterward to keep them in. Shivering touch doesn't kill you either - it just puts you in timeout. And it can be dispelled or healed while they are in timeout. And it's only one target in time out instead of a big chunk of the battlefield.

But bottom line: almost every opponent you could take out by hitting them with shivering touch and then having an ally coup de grace them while they were shivering, is an enemy that you could take out by putting up an acid fog and then locking the door with a wall of fu or locking them in with a wall of force and then filling the bubble up with cloud kill.

Highly specific situations that give you a chance to kill unprepared enemies without allowing them saving throws (but chancing many other failure chances such as to-hit rolls and moving into melee) are not particularly special on the Wizard spell list.

-Username17

[Mistborn]

But acid fog causes ongoing damage as long as you stay in time out. You can dump ice walls or even wall of force on afterward to keep them in. Shivering touch doesn't kill you either - it just puts you in timeout. And it can be dispelled or healed while they are in timeout. And it's only one target in time out instead of a big chunk of the battlefield.

But bottom line: almost every opponent you could take out by hitting them with shivering touch and then having an ally coup de grace them while they were shivering, is an enemy that you could take out by putting up an acid fog and then locking the door with a wall of fu or locking them in with a wall of force and then filling the bubble up with cloud kill.

Highly specific situations that give you a chance to kill unprepared enemies without allowing them saving throws (but chancing many other failure chances such as to-hit rolls and moving into melee) are not particularly special on the Wizard spell list.

-Username17

Yes you can burn an shit ton of spells to trap someone in an death trap. That's an incredibly inefficient use of wizard spells even if it works. Which it's not going too for anything with teleports, broad resistances and immunities, or dispels aka anything high level that you care about beating. Shivering touch is a no-save ko. Since you brought up acid fog maximized shivering touch is the same level at the max and that flat out ends anything Dex<18 that's not immune to cold which is a heck of a lot more monsters than the ones that care about acid fog.

[Mr. GC]

Lol Acid Fog. So the enemy needs to have all of the following:

No FoM.
No short, medium, or long range teleportation.
No acid resistance.
No special movement modes that would get it out of the area (burrow always works, flight might work depending on the ceiling, swim would only work if there was water around... but you wouldn't cast it then).

And even then it takes a long time to actually die.

Whereas Shivering Touch is hit = helpless, CdG at your leisure, unless something is around spamming Heal or they're psychic/have SLAs there's no hurry, and if they are that's what parties are for - multiple sets of actions.

PC 1: OHKO.
PC 2: CdG.

[DSMatticus]

Solid fog and it's derivatives are fine they don't so much "kill" people as put them in time out

That's really the big deal. If you get put in time out even for a few rounds, the rest of the fight is over and you emerge to a volley of readied actions. If you dispel the solid fog or teleport out in any way that takes a standard action, you've lost a turn. Now you might think, "okay, your wizard and their wizard have traded actions. That seems like a fair exchange." But you'd be wrong, because the PC's are way more badass than their opposition in pretty much every fight. Remember, a mirror match has an encounter level of the party's level plus four. You can go an entire campaign without ever seeing a fight that hard, and in any fight less difficult than that the PC's have the advantage in terms of high quality actions.

The typical fight (EL = PL) looks something like 1xPL-2, 1xPL-4, and 3xPL-6. So what your wizard has done is spent one action to cost that 1xPL-2 opponent at least one turn, depending on what kind of opponent he is. Meanwhile, that wizard has three friends who are theoretically just as badass as he is and they're only fighting 1xPL-4 and 3xPL-6. That's not even a fight. That's a mop-up.

The only really good way to counter solid fog (beyond freedom of movement) is being able to escape it with a move action or faster. And no, teleporting out as a standard action and having quickened spells is not a successful anti-solid fog strategy; you had access to the quickened spell either way, the wizard has still successfully traded standard actions with you.

Since you brought up acid fog maximized shivering touch is the same level at the max and that flat out ends anything Dex<18 that's not immune to cold which is a heck of a lot more monsters than the ones that care about acid fog.

Maximized shivering touch also requires a melee touch attack, avoiding which involves reach spell (now it's spell level 7) or spectral hand, though spectral hand isn't hard to counter itself. A quickened magic missile should just kill it. And even then, shivering touch offers exactly one albeit poorer than average defense; touch AC. You bolster that how every wizard always bolsters his AC; percentage miss chances. Meanwhile, solid fog works like a guaranteed one round stun on 95% of all opponents.

No short, medium, or long range teleportation.

Hey look! Someone ninja'd my attempted preemption, making it a... regular emption. See above; unless it's a move action you've traded standard actions with an enemy of your choice and the PC's have more 'awesome standard actions' than any opposition they are ever likely to face. If you have to teleport out of solid fog, a PC caster can call that a win.

No acid resistance.

I don't think you understand what part of acid fog anyone gives a shit about. Having acid resistance does nothing to nullify the parts of acid fog that hurt the most. That said, Frank really should have just said solid fog. It comes online sooner than maximized shivering touch and nobody actually cares about the piddly damage acid fog adds compared to what solid fog offers.

No special movement modes that would get it out of the area (burrow always works, flight might work depending on the ceiling, swim would only work if there was water around... but you wouldn't cast it then).

Solid fog is as tall as its radius. Flying up doesn't work better than just walking out at all. Burrow is affected the first round, and then no round afterwards because you're inside the ground and the ground blocks the solid fog's effect. Nevertheless, the number of things with burrow speeds is pretty damn small, and most of them are melee brutes who lose when you pull out fly, and it still cost you one turn to get out.

[Kaelik]

maximized shivering touch is the same level at the max and that flat out ends anything Dex<18 that's not immune to cold which is a heck of a lot more monsters than the ones that care about acid fog.

Maximized Shivering Touch is a 6th level spell. Even ignoring that it is single target, and so if you are fighting lots of enemies, it's not going to be a very effective use of your slots, and even ignoring the fact that it's touch range, so you have to punch someone in the face in order to get it to go off, here is an analysis of what happens when you succeed at Shivering Touching all the CR 10-12 monsters:

12 Dragons. Two are immune, the other 10 are fucking idiots if they let you touch them, since the actual advantage to a dragon at this level is kiting with breath weapons, and not melee. But absolutely none of them has a dex that isn't ten, so you do actually take them out if you get it off.

8 Hydras. Three of them are immune to it, and the other five are big dumb melee monsters. Color me unimpressed that you can beat some of the Hydras, but not all, with a 6th level spell.

12 Completely Immune: 3 Vermin, Animated Object, Clay and Stone Golems, Retriever, Kolyarut, Dread Wraith, Devourer, Formian Myrmarch, Frost Worm

4 Things you either gave a penalty to AC and reflex saves, or used up one action: Water, Fire, and Air Elementals, Leonal with SLA Heal.

5 Monsters who are mildly inconvenienced and have to retreat with their Su or SLA Planeshift or Greater Teleport: Beblith, Hezrou, Hamatula, Couatl, Chauchemar (well, you shivering touched it's astral projection, so similar).

2 Monsters who you beat if you beat their absurdly high SR for their CR: Rope (30), Rakshasa (27)

The Noble Salamander, who you can coup de grace, but in the mean time can still cast a bunch of fire SLAs and can even use dispel magic one time to try to remove the Shivering Touch.

3 Monsters who lose, but frankly, also lose to anything that can hit them, because their entire concept is based around not being hit: Abyssal Basilisk, Harpy Archer, Guardian Naga.

An Ooze, who you could also beat by not touching, and walking away from every few rounds.

2 Class leveled CR 6 Monsters that everyone ever can beat with anything: Troll Hunter, Hill Giant Lycan.

5 Legitimate level 10-12 Bruisers that people actually care about beating that lose to it: Earth Elemental, Cloud and Fire Giant, Kraken, Purple Worm.

So being extremely generous and giving you all the Dragons that could avoid being touched, counting the things that rely on avoinding closing, counting the ooze, counting the Hydras as legitimate threats, and counting Class leveled CR 6s:

You Defeat or Substantially weaken 27 Monsters.

You force a draw on 4.

You mildly annoy 5.

You don't do anything at all to 19.

That's better than 50-50 but not much, and I am being super generous in presuming that Dragons just fly over and land next to you to let you do this.

And we are just assuming you automatically succeed on hitting it with a touch attack in the first round without it doing everything it was supposed to do anyway before you get to it, and we are assuming you are only facing one monster, because Shivering Touch is way less awesome when you start to face 2-8.

It sure doesn't look to me like something any more powerful than any other good spell of that level.

[Mr. GC]

I don't think you understand what part of acid fog anyone gives a shit about. Having acid resistance does nothing to nullify the parts of acid fog that hurt the most. That said, Frank really should have just said solid fog. It comes online sooner than maximized shivering touch and nobody actually cares about the piddly damage acid fog adds compared to what solid fog offers.

He presented it as if the damage mattered. Unlike 30 a round for 10 rounds when you can take 3 rounds... it doesn't. You're right about Solid Fog (though wrong about Shivering Touch... you can get it Maxed at 5).

Also, lmfao at dragons kiting with breath weapons. Seriously, LMFAO. That's almost as good as "Rogues should fear Lightning Bolt" but not quite.

[Kaelik]

(though wrong about Shivering Touch... you can get it Maxed at 5)

No one said you can't get it maxxed lower. But doing that involving investing resources that are better spent elsewhere.

[Mr. GC]

(though wrong about Shivering Touch... you can get it Maxed at 5)

No one said you can't get it maxxed lower. But doing that involving investing resources that are better spent elsewhere.

What could be better than OHKOing your enemies, driving their CdGed corpses before you, and hearing the lamentations of their women?

No seriously. Sudden Max is on at 5 (a Lesser Max Rod takes a few more levels), an Empowered Spellshard is something you can rock at 6 and that gives about 85%-90% of the same result (15.75 vs 18)...

Meanwhile lol finger darts? It's literally a one shot deal. See that part where it says hands with one or zero fingers are useless? Um yeah, you kind of need at least one for somatic components, so if you cast that spell twice at the levels it is equal to or slightly better than Shivering Touch, you can't cast any more spells at all until someone fixes you.

[Mistborn]

Geez sometimes I'm not so sure about this board.

If your party is dying to dragonstrafe then you have a shit tier party. Now for some dragons the breath weapon can be a factor Red, Blue, Gold, or Silver dragons can spit out enough damage to potentially one-round someone who fails their save if they take maximize breath. Otherwise the breath is a non-issue. A dragons most powerful weapon is it's full attack so what you've got to watch out for is that. Especially if the dragon is strong enough to have wraithstrike that sort of thing will one round anyone without a miss chance.

[Winnah]

Meanwhile lol finger darts? It's literally a one shot deal. See that part where it says hands with one or zero fingers are useless? Um yeah, you kind of need at least one for somatic components, so if you cast that spell twice at the levels it is equal to or slightly better than Shivering Touch, you can't cast any more spells at all until someone fixes you.

'One shot deal' is kind of the fucking point.

Does not need a buff round or modification to use at range. To repeat, it is a single spell requiring a single action.

It does not require an attack roll, so no miss chance or other melee proofing will prevent it, with the exception of special miss chance from things like blink or entropic shield. It does not require investing in a Bard Cohort in order to improve attack rolls.

Fingers heal as soon as the ability damage is healed, and if you're going to use corrupt/sanctified spells, fast healing is a simple countermeasure which has the added benefit of limiting the ability damage caused by opponents. More advanced countermeasures exist, such as using someone elses ability points, but whatever.

Finally, it is a lower level spell. That means I can save 3rd level slots for spells like Devil's Sight, Mount, Major Image or Venomfire.

[Kaelik]

If your party is dying to dragonstrafe then you have a shit tier party.

At CR10-12 Dragons have 80-100ft lines and/or 40-50ft Cones. Their speed is absurdly better than any PC, and some of them have burrow or swim speeds. Dragons have huge piles of HP and really good saves. Dragons with flyby attack strafes can whittle down a parties HP over the course of a long period, and drastically drain resources. If you don't lose to or flee from a kiting dragon who you didn't know you were going to face ahead of time, then you were facing a DM holding back.

General PC consensus in my games is "Oh shit, a kiting Dragon, time to hole up somewhere and hope he was just hunting, and doesn't want us specifically." and/or "Okay, so we teleport somewhere and begin the journey again and hope we don't run into another one."

That's not shit tier parties. That's Druid/Wizard/Tome classes games played by reasonably good parties.

What could be better than OHKOing your enemies, driving their CdGed corpses before you, and hearing the lamentations of their women?

As previously established, Shivering Touch works on at best half of all enemies, and even that is assuming they actually let you touch attack them and you beat SR where applicable. And it's really bad every time you face multiple enemies. So investing feats or money on things that help you no matter what you are casting, or that let you cast other things are better.

No seriously. Sudden Max is on at 5 (a Lesser Max Rod takes a few more levels), an Empowered Spellshard is something you can rock at 6 and that gives about 85%-90% of the same result (15.75 vs 18)...

No seriously, I spend my money on Int boosters, save boosters, and other better items, especially at low levels. No seriously, Sudden Max is a terrible feat that is going to make you look like an idiot when you fight any of these at level 5:

A locked door behind an arbitrarily high number of assorted CR 4 traps.
A huge Animated iron statue in a throne room.
A Large Fire Elemental in a mystic forge.
A Manticore on the wing above a plain.
A couple of Centaur Archers in a light to medium wood.
A Howler/Allip tag team in an abandoned temple to a dark god.
A Grimlock assault team (4 members) hidden in a cavern.
A Cleric of Hextor (with his dozen zombies) in a crypt.

[Mr. GC]

Meanwhile lol finger darts? It's literally a one shot deal. See that part where it says hands with one or zero fingers are useless? Um yeah, you kind of need at least one for somatic components, so if you cast that spell twice at the levels it is equal to or slightly better than Shivering Touch, you can't cast any more spells at all until someone fixes you.

'One shot deal' is kind of the fucking point.

Does not need a buff round or modification to use at range. To repeat, it is a single spell requiring a single action.

And then everyone casts it once, and there are still enemies left, so you're stuck going after alternate victory conditions and not Dex damage, because if you do that again you can't cast any spells at all.

As opposed to one Spectral Hand + 1 Shivering Touch per successful attack (misses keep the charge).

At CR10-12 Dragons have 80-100ft lines and/or 40-50ft Cones. Their speed is absurdly better than any PC, and some of them have burrow or swim speeds. Dragons have huge piles of HP and really good saves. Dragons with flyby attack strafes can whittle down a parties HP over the course of a long period, and drastically drain resources. If you don't lose to or flee from a kiting dragon who you didn't know you were going to face ahead of time, then you were facing a DM holding back.

Suck fewer cocks. One spell and they do 0 damage. Meanwhile, you do non 0 damage to them. It's totally ok if they want to fly around, do nothing, and let you kill them.

The only way the breath weapon is a threat is if it loaded up on metabreaths. Then it isn't kiting you with its breath weapon, it's just breaking invis to OHKO the entire party.

General PC consensus in my games is "Oh shit, a kiting Dragon, time to hole up somewhere and hope he was just hunting, and doesn't want us specifically." and/or "Okay, so we teleport somewhere and begin the journey again and hope we don't run into another one."

Again, suck fewer cocks. Yeah, we get that the Den is full of "Rogues should fear Lightning Bolt", "OMG something easily countered by a low spell, we can't deal with that shit!", and "Holy fuck, a whole bunch of weak Will save shit, let's be scared of it even though we have some Will save shit!"

You're getting pwned hardcore by Misty based on 5 minutes of instruction.

That's not shit tier parties. That's Druid/Wizard/Tome classes games played by reasonably good parties.

Reasonably good yet can't cast a simple spell on their fucking spell list. Um yeah. You know what to do right?

As previously established, Shivering Touch works on at best half of all enemies, and even that is assuming they actually let you touch attack them and you beat SR where applicable. And it's really bad every time you face multiple enemies. So investing feats or money on things that help you no matter what you are casting, or that let you cast other things are better.

If SR is a factor, you know what to remove from your mouth. If hitting touch AC is a factor, Dispel Scintillating Scales or see previous advice.

If it's multiple enemies, the other Dex damage spell has the same problem, and there's the small factor of you getting many shots of it.

No seriously, I spend my money on Int boosters, save boosters, and other better items, especially at low levels. No seriously, Sudden Max is a terrible feat that is going to make you look like an idiot when you fight any of these at level 5:

A locked door behind an arbitrarily high number of assorted CR 4 traps.
A huge Animated iron statue in a throne room.
A Large Fire Elemental in a mystic forge.
A Manticore on the wing above a plain.
A couple of Centaur Archers in a light to medium wood.
A Howler/Allip tag team in an abandoned temple to a dark god.
A Grimlock assault team (4 members) hidden in a cavern.
A Cleric of Hextor (with his dozen zombies) in a crypt.

That's your idea of a hard set of encounters? Really? Um yeah. Get on my level.

PS: About half of those would be OHKOed by some application of Sudden Maximize, not necessarily on Shivering Touch.

[Username17]

What could be better than OHKOing your enemies, driving their CdGed corpses before you, and hearing the lamentations of their women?

Well... you could actually KO them for starters. Shivering Touch doesn't do that. It gives the target a Dex of 0 which does not kill them or render them unconscious. It makes them paralyzed, so they can be CDGed, but if they have spell-likes or gaze attacks they can just keep using them for the spell's duration.

If you were concerned about:

short, medium, or long range teleportation

... then Shivering Touch does not have you covered. Almost 90% of monsters with teleportation have it as a spell-like, which means they can just use it to escape if they've been given the bad touch. The damage only lasts 1 round/level, so if they get an action to withdraw they can be back pretty soon at full health.

It's just a single target Hold effect that goes against Cold Resistance instead of Enchantment Resistance and has to land a melee touch attack instead of allowing a Will Save. Oh, and you need to maximize it to keep it from being a piece of shit that almost never works on top of that. Even when used perfectly, it's not a one-hit drop. You need to get into melee (or put up a Spectral Hand or some shit), then you need to hit with your Maximized Shivering Touch, then you need an ally to CDG before it gets dispelled or the enemy teleports away! That is, at the minimum, two hits. There are a lot of fucking ways for a Wizard to spend a feat and a spell and the actions of two characters to drop an opponent after succeeding on a die roll.

Yes, Dragons have a shitty Touch AC and a massive Will Save, and Shivering Touch is very good for Dragon Hunting. And... that's about it. A certain kind of internet fan sperges about Shivering Touch, but for the vast majority of scenarios it is not even worth preparing.

-Username17

[Mr. GC]

It isn't as if getting a follower to follow up is hard. All the alternatives being proposed require even more setup, as you might expect from people scared of easy dragons.

[Username17]

It isn't as if getting a follower to follow up is hard. All the alternatives being proposed require even more setup, as you might expect from people scared of easy dragons.

So your current claim is that Shivering Touch is overpowered because it is easy for characters to get followers. At fifth level.



-Username17

[Kaelik]

Suck fewer cocks. One spell and they do 0 damage. Meanwhile, you do non 0 damage to them. It's totally ok if they want to fly around, do nothing, and let you kill them.

Resist Energy is a good spell. With a duration of an hour or two, depending on CL. If you cast it, 1) It doesn't block all damage, and yes, you actually do zero damage to the dragon, so you are still being harassed. 2) If you do have a Cleric Archer in your party, the Dragon flies far enough away to out weight your casting, and shadows you until he knows it has.

Again, suck fewer cocks. Yeah, we get that the Den is full of "Rogues should fear Lightning Bolt", "OMG something easily countered by a low spell, we can't deal with that shit!", and "Holy fuck, a whole bunch of weak Will save shit, let's be scared of it even though we have some Will save shit!"

If you want to attribute something to people, usually it is best to actually attribute things they have said. So when you start whining about how the Den thinks Rogues should fear lightning bolts you sound like an idiot.

Reasonably good yet can't cast a simple spell on their fucking spell list. Um yeah. You know what to do right?

And I bet 15 minutes before this line of conversation started you wouldn't have had a single Resist Energy in your prepared lists. And as previously established, hiding under ground is more effective, because it doesn't use resources, doesn't subject them to any attacks, and has a duration of "longer than the Dragon is willing to wait."

Unlike Resist Energy, which wears off over the course of a journey, isn't always available, and doesn't prevent all damage.

If SR is a factor, you know what to remove from your mouth.

So... you regularly have a CL of 20 at level 10? Because that's what you need to have even a 50% chance of effecting a Roper. Or is this the part where you explain that of course you cast a 4th level spell as well? Because I'm pretty sure that will go great with the example of Acid Fog + Wall of Ice(/Sand/Whatever) that also beats Ropers no save, and unlike Assay Resistance + Maximized Shivering Touch, it has a 100% chance instead of a 50% chance.

If hitting touch AC is a factor, Dispel Scintillating Scales or see previous advice.

Hitting touch AC is sometimes a factor, like against, for example, an Elder Air Elemental, Barbed Devil, or Harpy Archer. But it's also important that it's hard to get a touch attack off at all against some enemies, like Dragons or Harpy Archers.

And no, Spectral Hand is not an all purpose answer, since it can be easily killed by the dragon's surprise attack if you have already cast it, or by the Harpy's +1 Bow. And if you cast it when you see the enemy, they can destroy it then, or in the Dragon's case perhaps cast some low level spell like Mirror Image to give them time to come within range and breath on you and it.

If it's multiple enemies, the other Dex damage spell has the same problem, and there's the small factor of you getting many shots of it.

No, if you are facing multiple enemies, you don't cast Lahm's Finger Darts either. The argument for multiple enemies is an argument both against preparing too many shivering touches to the exclusion of anything else, and an argument against taking sudden maximize, or any of the other ways you can invest resources into Shivering Touch. Because investing a lot of resources in a single target spell makes you look silly when you face multiple enemies.

That's your idea of a hard set of encounters? Really? Um yeah. Get on my level.

PS: About half of those would be OHKOed by some application of Sudden Maximize, not necessarily on Shivering Touch.

Oh you tiny brained boy. Learn before you attempt to troll, otherwise you just look pathetic. No, I don't think those are hard encounters, I think those are thoroughly average encounters. So average that they are the actual example used for level 5 characters facing an average set of encounters.

And while you might be able to beat some of those encounters with an application of sudden maximize, I very seriously doubt you prepare fireballs as often as you do Shivering Touch. And in practice, the ones I can state that no possible application of sudden maximize could beat are the ones with multiple enemies, so... four of the eight, that you couldn't even beat that way.

[Mr. GC]

It isn't as if getting a follower to follow up is hard. All the alternatives being proposed require even more setup, as you might expect from people scared of easy dragons.

So your current claim is that Shivering Touch is overpowered because it is easy for characters to get followers. At fifth level.



-Username17

This is the part where you sperg that follower means Follower, and not a synonym of minion which can be any one of undead/attack animals/anything else with a half decent attack line... Right?

[Mr. GC]

Resist Energy is a good spell. With a duration of an hour or two, depending on CL. If you cast it, 1) It doesn't block all damage, and yes, you actually do zero damage to the dragon, so you are still being harassed. 2) If you do have a Cleric Archer in your party, the Dragon flies far enough away to out weight your casting, and shadows you until he knows it has.

It blocks all damage from weak attacks, such as dragon breath.

If you do zero damage at range, you have my instructions already.

And I bet 15 minutes before this line of conversation started you wouldn't have had a single Resist Energy in your prepared lists. And as previously established, hiding under ground is more effective, because it doesn't use resources, doesn't subject them to any attacks, and has a duration of "longer than the Dragon is willing to wait."

Unlike Resist Energy, which wears off over the course of a journey, isn't always available, and doesn't prevent all damage.

Mass Resist is a standard counter as it allows you to totally ignore low elemental damage encounters. Such as say, dragon strafing.

Hiding underground meanwhile is dependent upon a conveniently placed cave.

So... you regularly have a CL of 20 at level 10? Because that's what you need to have even a 50% chance of effecting a Roper. Or is this the part where you explain that of course you cast a 4th level spell as well? Because I'm pretty sure that will go great with the example of Acid Fog + Wall of Ice(/Sand/Whatever) that also beats Ropers no save, and unlike Assay Resistance + Maximized Shivering Touch, it has a 100% chance instead of a 50% chance.

If you're worried about a Roper... yeah that shit again.

By the way, it's 55%.

Hitting touch AC is sometimes a factor, like against, for example, an Elder Air Elemental, Barbed Devil, or Harpy Archer. But it's also important that it's hard to get a touch attack off at all against some enemies, like Dragons or Harpy Archers.

16, 16, 19.

*checks own game, sees party was going up against 20-30, or higher, while at a lower level and not having a problem*

You should get that checked out.

No, if you are facing multiple enemies, you don't cast Lahm's Finger Darts either. The argument for multiple enemies is an argument both against preparing too many shivering touches to the exclusion of anything else, and an argument against taking sudden maximize, or any of the other ways you can invest resources into Shivering Touch. Because investing a lot of resources in a single target spell makes you look silly when you face multiple enemies.

...Or you could just use the Sudden Maximize on some sort of AoE, instead of pretending it can only work on one spell ever. Just saying.

[Username17]

It isn't as if getting a follower to follow up is hard. All the alternatives being proposed require even more setup, as you might expect from people scared of easy dragons.

So your current claim is that Shivering Touch is overpowered because it is easy for characters to get followers. At fifth level.



-Username17

This is the part where you sperg that follower means Follower, and not a synonym of minion which can be any one of undead/attack animals/anything else with a half decent attack line... Right?

No. This is the point where I point out that as a fifth level wizard, you don't get any of that shit either.

-Username17

[Kaelik]

It blocks all damage from weak attacks, such as dragon breath.

Even at Resist 30 at CL 11, CR 10-12 Dragons all do more than 30 damage on their breaths. And if you are only CL 10, oops, plenty of damage to compare to what a party can do against a Dragon.

Mass Resist is a standard counter as it allows you to totally ignore low elemental damage encounters. Such as say, dragon strafing.

As previously established, 1) Mass Resist doesn't actually solve that problem. 2) Prior to me pointing out that Dragons kite, you were so sure that Shivering Touch beats all Dragons super easy, you probably wouldn't have prepared Mass Resist Energy in your 3rd level slots.

And of course, I can point to six other monsters, and you can tell me six other spells you would have prepared, but you can't tell me what those spells are now, because you are Schroedinger Spell Slotting your way to hypothetical victory.

Hiding underground meanwhile is dependent upon a conveniently placed cave.

No, they are dependant on having a real character class, like Druid, who can spontaneously convert any 3rd level spell, no matter what he prepared, into a burrowing creature that digs a tunnel for the party to dive into.

If you're worried about a Roper... yeah that shit again.

Ah you just generically beat Str draining grapple monsters with your Wizard without casting a spell. No, I'm sure you, unlike every party ever, will just glare the Roper to death.

16, 16, 19.

*checks own game, sees party was going up against 20-30, or higher, while at a lower level and not having a problem*

Some people can't afford to spend a Leadership Cohort on a Bard that adds to their AB, because they have better things to do (Or because Leadership is banned, because it's actually so good that everyone would take it, unlike Shivering Touch, which so far requires two other spells, a feat spent on Sudden Maximize, and a feat spend on Leadership for a Bard Cohort to even be able to beat 50% of the monsters in the MM). Those people often have difficulty being assured of hitting touch AC 16-19 at level 10 with their Str dumped Wizard who doesn't walk around with Persistent buffs.

Frankly, I doubt your characters really had assured hits against 19 touch AC either.

...Or you could just use the Sudden Maximize on some sort of AoE, instead of pretending it can only work on one spell ever. Just saying.

In your games all the monsters stand next to each other to make it easy to AoE them? Wow. Why do you play on easy mod?

[erik]

Mass Resist is a standard counter as it allows you to totally ignore low elemental damage encounters. Such as say, dragon strafing.

Why are you repeatedly suggesting that resist energy is sufficient to prevent all harm from dragon breath?

At 7th level you can block 20 damage
At 11th level you can block 30 damage

CR 6 Blue= 6d8 (avg 27) 7 over resist
CR 7 Red= 6d10 (avg 33) 13 over resist
CR 8 Green= 8d6 (avg 27 7 over resist
CR 10 Red= 8d10 (avg 44) 14 over resist
CR 11 Blue= 10d8 (avg 44) 14 over resist
CR 11 Green 10d6 (avg 35) 5 over resist

It's not big money damage by any stretch of the imagination, but it also is just crappy average damage and at exactly the level where your resist gets a bump. If it rolls under, meh, it is a wasted round. If it rolls over damage then it can get much worse. And it costs the dragon nothing.

And if you fight any higher CR dragons they're just going to exceed your resistance which capped out at 30. If you fight any dragons with breath metamagic they're again going to blow past your resistance.