You do fucking win at D&D.

[Mr. GC]

So your current claim is that Shivering Touch is overpowered because it is easy for characters to get followers. At fifth level.



-Username17

This is the part where you sperg that follower means Follower, and not a synonym of minion which can be any one of undead/attack animals/anything else with a half decent attack line... Right?

No. This is the point where I point out that as a fifth level wizard, you don't get any of that shit either.

-Username17

You can't get undead. Absolutely nothing stops you from purchasing a Magebred Warbeast Fleshraker of Gimp Slaying +5, and it costs under 1k.

It blocks all damage from weak attacks, such as dragon breath.

Even at Resist 30 at CL 11, CR 10-12 Dragons all do more than 30 damage on their breaths. And if you are only CL 10, oops, plenty of damage to compare to what a party can do against a Dragon.

O rly?

Black averages 30 and that's if you fail the save which isn't very likely provided you are not shit tier. So you have to fail, and take above average damage to take any damage at all.
Blue does 45. Since again, non shit tier parties usually pass saves you take 0.
Green does 35, even if you fail 5 is about the same as 0 since even a fucking wand or passive regen can mitigate that.
Reds are one of the few with a relevant breath weapon. In this range though you're just being hit for 44... you know the deal.
White is 21 or 24.5... let's just skip this one.

Brass... 17.5 or 21... I thought whites were the worst. Wow.
Bronze, 35. Blah blah blah.
Copper, 25. Yawn.
Gold, 44. Bored now...
Silver, 36. Uh huh.

The DCs are 21-23 except for the weakest one which oddly, is 25, and aside from that these are about standard for the level and therefore there's no reason for good parties to fail them with any degree of regularity.

Even if you are a shit tier party, and are therefore taking single digits or low teens most of the time, you still have about ten rounds before the dragon can even attempt to kill anyone. Even a shit tier party can do something in ten rounds in a fucking D&D fight.

As previously established, 1) Mass Resist doesn't actually solve that problem. 2) Prior to me pointing out that Dragons kite, you were so sure that Shivering Touch beats all Dragons super easy, you probably wouldn't have prepared Mass Resist Energy in your 3rd level slots.

Except for that part where Mass Resist Energy isn't actually the same spell level for Wizards. And the part where a mass resist does cockblock it. You know, the entire thing that makes you wrong.

And of course, I can point to six other monsters, and you can tell me six other spells you would have prepared, but you can't tell me what those spells are now, because you are Schroedinger Spell Slotting your way to hypothetical victory.

Just like you'd try and pick something any given spell list couldn't deal with... except since you consider touch ACs below 20 and dragons nicely allowing you to kill them to be insurmountable you'd likely fail at this hardcore if you tried.

No, they are dependant on having a real character class, like Druid, who can spontaneously convert any 3rd level spell, no matter what he prepared, into a burrowing creature that digs a tunnel for the party to dive into.

And then the dragon fucking breathes into the hole, and your shit tier party dies anyways... also, if they're smart enough to play real character classes, like Druids, they don't have to hide in the sand from them.

Ah you just generically beat Str draining grapple monsters with your Wizard without casting a spell. No, I'm sure you, unlike every party ever, will just glare the Roper to death.

Ropers are one of the weakest enemies ever. As long as you don't take the bait and attack the tentacles, which just causes you to get Str damaged all over again they're an easy kill.

Some people can't afford to spend a Leadership Cohort on a Bard that adds to their AB, because they have better things to do (Or because Leadership is banned, because it's actually so good that everyone would take it, unlike Shivering Touch, which so far requires two other spells, a feat spent on Sudden Maximize, and a feat spend on Leadership for a Bard Cohort to even be able to beat 50% of the monsters in the MM). Those people often have difficulty being assured of hitting touch AC 16-19 at level 10 with their Str dumped Wizard who doesn't walk around with Persistent buffs.

If not a Bard cohort, an actual Bard. You know, a standard thing you do if your party is even remotely attack based, and therefore a Bardless party is either all pure casters or shit tier.

Even without the Bard though, to hit bonuses are a dime a dozen, if you can't hit +14/+17 you're not trying.

Frankly, I doubt your characters really had assured hits against 19 touch AC either.

Hm, I dunno. Does +20 to +25 reliably hit touch AC 19?

In your games all the monsters stand next to each other to make it easy to AoE them? Wow. Why do you play on easy mod?

You are aware not all AoEs are contiguous right? No, you don't realize dragon breath strafing is a free kill. Of course not.

[Winnah]

And then everyone casts it once, and there are still enemies left, so you're stuck going after alternate victory conditions and not Dex damage, because if you do that again you can't cast any spells at all.

You suck at math. If casting LFD twice is an insufficient contribution to the encounter, you still have enough fingers to cast other spells with until the rest of your hand grows back in a few rounds.

and FYI, Ropers will fuck you up. They are the poster child for ability damage touch attacks. 6 attacks per round means that iterative probability will run it's course so much faster.

[Leress]

Show me the stat block of this character that is doing all of this, GC.

[Mr. GC]

6 attacks period (unless you drink the koolaid and cut them, then they just regrow, regrab, and re Str damage you with no penalty) and DC 18... so try sucking less?

If that's a poison it's even worse.

And this is supposedly a CR 12... Yeah.

[Winnah]

6 attacks period (unless you drink the koolaid and cut them, then they just regrow, regrab, and re Str damage you with no penalty) and DC 18... so try sucking less?

If that's a poison it's even worse.

And this is supposedly a CR 12... Yeah.

Read the fucking stat block before you start with your shit.

6 strand attacks. 1 bite. Additional free bite attacks depending on number of strands attached to a creature within 10 feet.

Roper Weakness is not a poison.

DC 18 does not sound like much. Assuming level 12, good save from class, expect +8. Above average Con? Save bonus from items? add another 6.

so, you have a +14 to save assuming you're a 'tough' class with decent items and a decent constitution score. You need to roll a 4 or better to pass the save vs. weakness in this instance. If 6 strands hit you, the cumulative probability of failing one of those fortitude saves is around 62%. Do you like those odds? How about if you're a wizard, or the wizard's bard cohort?

[Mr. GC]

6 attacks period (unless you drink the koolaid and cut them, then they just regrow, regrab, and re Str damage you with no penalty) and DC 18... so try sucking less?

If that's a poison it's even worse.

And this is supposedly a CR 12... Yeah.

Read the fucking stat block before you start with your shit.

6 strand attacks. 1 bite. Additional free bite attacks depending on number of strands attached to a creature within 10 feet.

Roper Weakness is not a poison.

DC 18 does not sound like much. Assuming level 12, good save from class, expect +8. Above average Con? Save bonus from items? add another 6.

so, you have a +14 to save assuming you're a 'tough' class with decent items and a decent constitution score. You need to roll a 4 or better to pass the save vs. weakness in this instance. If 6 strands hit you, the cumulative probability of failing one of those fortitude saves is around 62%. Do you like those odds? How about if you're a wizard, or the wizard's bard cohort?

Or you could get out of shit tier, at which point the entire party has like 20 all saves or more, so that you don't get raped by spells, and therefore you do not give any fucks about the Roper who gets to do some Str damage if you get a 1 and otherwise does nothing but slowly pull you closer for a weak attack... assuming you even get in its range in the first place.

[Winnah]

Show me the stat block of this character that is doing all of this, GC.

...

[Fuchs]

Mr. GC doesn't actually have any stats to present, he is making all his claims up and never presents anything that can be tested and checked.

[Kaelik]

O rly?

Yes really.

you still have about ten rounds before the dragon can even attempt to kill anyone. Even a shit tier party can do something in ten rounds in a fucking D&D fight.

You have a lot more than ten rounds, you have infinity rounds, because they are going to fucking kite you. But since you actually can't do anything to a Dragon 100ft away, that's not very helpful. Again, Cleric Archers can do something, but what else, Wizards can't do shit, Druids can't do shit. Clerics can't do shit. Rogues can't do shit. Are you telling me that your non shit tier party consists of fighter archers?

Except for that part where Mass Resist Energy isn't actually the same spell level for Wizards. And the part where a mass resist does cockblock it. You know, the entire thing that makes you wrong.

So 1) You still don't know the duration of Resist Energy, or just cannot believe that Dragons would come back. 2) You still think your party includes fighter archers. 3) Your defense against it being not worth the spell slot for you to prepare if you don't know the Dragon is coming is that... it actually takes a 4th level slot. So right away it doesn't help you against Dragons when you are level 5, and at level 10, you are now spending a "low level" spell that is one level lower than your maximum.

Just like you'd try and pick something any given spell list couldn't deal with

No, I would try to pick the specific monster that shivering touch arguably works best against, and is really thematic, since I already showed how it does not fucking work against half the MM.

And then the dragon fucking breathes into the hole, and your shit tier party dies anyways... also, if they're smart enough to play real character classes, like Druids, they don't have to hide in the sand from them.

1) As previously established, Druids can't do shit to Dragons that kite.
2) Good thing all tunnels are required to be straight lines of less than 100ft depth right, because otherwise that would be really stupid, and the tunnel would break line of effect.

Ropers are one of the weakest enemies ever. As long as you don't take the bait and attack the tentacles, which just causes you to get Str damaged all over again they're an easy kill.

Because it's totally impossible for a Roper to willingly dislodge a tentacle and attack again with it.

Why do you play one easy mod so much?

Hm, I dunno. Does +20 to +25 reliably hit touch AC 19?

Oh hey, the completely baseless number you pull out of your ass that doesn't reflect anything proves... nothing. Explain how you get a +20-25 at level 10 on your Wizard's touch attack, so that I can make fun of you for investing more resources into Shivering Touch that isn't very good.

You are aware not all AoEs are contiguous right? No, you don't realize dragon breath strafing is a free kill. Of course not.

Um... So? How does having a completely unspecified AoE not be contiguous help you hit two things that are too far away. How about you explain what sudden maximized spells you use to beat all those encounters. That will be rich, because then you try to explain how you prepare all these different spells every day but still have 4 Shivering Touches too.

[Lago PARANOIA]

You know, way back on the Nifty Message boards we had another non-optimization optimization argument and ropers came up then, too.

[Mr. GC]

You have a lot more than ten rounds, you have infinity rounds, because they are going to fucking kite you. But since you actually can't do anything to a Dragon 100ft away, that's not very helpful. Again, Cleric Archers can do something, but what else, Wizards can't do shit, Druids can't do shit. Clerics can't do shit. Rogues can't do shit. Are you telling me that your non shit tier party consists of fighter archers?

Non shit tier melee has a range greater than 100, and that's not counting the actual ranged attacks so I must again invite you to suck fewer cocks.

Also, a real dragon, meaning one that does not suck a barrel of cocks is Blood Wind full attacking from those ranges and Power Attacking and hitting on a 2 anyways and doing non 0 damage.

So 1) You still don't know the duration of Resist Energy, or just cannot believe that Dragons would come back. 2) You still think your party includes fighter archers. 3) Your defense against it being not worth the spell slot for you to prepare if you don't know the Dragon is coming is that... it actually takes a 4th level slot. So right away it doesn't help you against Dragons when you are level 5, and at level 10, you are now spending a "low level" spell that is one level lower than your maximum.

At 11? It lasts 3:40 without trying. If the dragon wants to fuck off for almost 4 hours that's cool, plenty of time to do something else and then leave.

If you are at level 5 the fucking Cleric casts it, since I'm pretty sure they don't get Shivering Touch, anyways.

Oh hey, the completely baseless number you pull out of your ass that doesn't reflect anything proves... nothing. Explain how you get a +20-25 at level 10 on your Wizard's touch attack, so that I can make fun of you for investing more resources into Shivering Touch that isn't very good.

Without trying at all you take a basic 14 Dex, rock a Bard song and pop a Knowledge Devotion, and that gets you straight in that range. If you did in fact try you'd do much better... and since you only actually need 17 you can do much worse and still auto hit the "insurmountable" touch AC (which just leads me to believe you, and other Denners would cry like little bitches if I ran a game for you for five minutes).

[Kaelik]

Non shit tier melee has a range greater than 100

Please describe this.

At 11? It lasts 3:40 without trying. If the dragon wants to fuck off for almost 4 hours that's cool, plenty of time to do something else and then leave.

Ah, so now at level 11 you are spending a 5th level slot to delay for four hours the attack. That's really useful. I mean, that way you face the exact same enemy four hours later with fewer spells.

Without trying at all you take a basic 14 Dex, rock a Bard song and pop a Knowledge Devotion, and that gets you straight in that range.

So on your Wizard... you use Dex on your touch attacks because... you took Weapon Finesse, you take Knowledge Devotion, you have a bard Cohort, and then you have a touch attack for your maximized shivering touch using Sudden Maximize.

That's four feats you have spent on the ability to Shivering Touch people with very little additional benefit (as Compared to Leadership for a Druid, and three caster feats that are better than Sudden Maximize and Weapon Finesse). And you do all this using Complete Champion, and Leadership, because you always have access to those, and no one ever nerfs or bans leadership.

Yeah, this sure sounds like a respectable usage of resources for a Wizard all on one spell that doesn't even work on half the monsters and never works on more than one enemy per action.

[Mr. GC]

Non shit tier melee has a range greater than 100

Please describe this.

Flying pounces. Only way that might actually work is if the dragon is straight up since ascending is half speed for non perfect maneuverability. That in turn requires the line breath, which means it doesn't hit all the party and is lucky to hit half. A cone breath means 50 feet which is easy engagement range. Again, this is entirely excluding actual ranged attacks.

Ah, so now at level 11 you are spending a 5th level slot to delay for four hours the attack. That's really useful. I mean, that way you face the exact same enemy four hours later with fewer spells.

Who says it's 5th level? Also, even if it were you do that twice and it's gone for the entire day, so whatever.

So on your Wizard... you use Dex on your touch attacks because... you took Weapon Finesse, you take Knowledge Devotion, you have a bard Cohort, and then you have a touch attack for your maximized shivering touch using Sudden Maximize.

I actually forgot about the Spectral Hand +2. You can ignore the Dex then.

[Kaelik]

Flying pounces. Only way that might actually work is if the dragon is straight up since ascending is half speed for non perfect maneuverability. That in turn requires the line breath, which means it doesn't hit all the party and is lucky to hit half. A cone breath means 50 feet which is easy engagement range.

Oh, so as long as the kiting dragon doesn't have flyby attack you can totally hit it with melee attacks...

Oh wait, that would be stupid.

So I guess we are back to you playing on easy mode. Someone should make a list of all the things Monsters are not allowed to do because it would be too hard for your poor PCs.

I actually forgot about the Spectral Hand +2. You can ignore the Dex then.

Good, then that's back to: 1) it's really easy to kill a Spectral Hand, sometimes it just happens by accident in the middle of attempting to kill the Wizard. 2) You now have Str 10 on your Wizard for some reason.

[Chamomile]

You know, way back on the Nifty Message boards we had another non-optimization optimization argument and ropers came up then, too.

Flame war...Flame war never changes...

[rasmuswagner]

Oh hey, the completely baseless number you pull out of your ass that doesn't reflect anything proves... nothing. Explain how you get a +20-25 at level 10 on your Wizard's touch attack, so that I can make fun of you for investing more resources into Shivering Touch that isn't very good.

Without trying at all you take a basic 14 Dex, rock a Bard song and pop a Knowledge Devotion, and that gets you straight in that range. If you did in fact try you'd do much better... and since you only actually need 17 you can do much worse and still auto hit the "insurmountable" touch AC (which just leads me to believe you, and other Denners would cry like little bitches if I ran a game for you for five minutes).

+5 BaB. +2 Dex. Let's say +5 from Knowledge Devotion. That means your bard cohort is adding +8 to your attack roll, at the very least. That, or you're full of shit, not only playing Schrödinger's Wizard, but doing a piss-poor job of even that game. I know which explanation I believe, given your track record of 0 builds to support your cockmunching.

[Leress]

Show me the stat block of this character that is doing all of this, GC.

...

I pretty much want GC to show proof or shut the fuck up.

[...You Lost Me]

Watching Kaelik tear someone's argument to shreds is like one of my favorite things to do. He will make an excellent lawyer.

[K]

Oh hey, the completely baseless number you pull out of your ass that doesn't reflect anything proves... nothing. Explain how you get a +20-25 at level 10 on your Wizard's touch attack, so that I can make fun of you for investing more resources into Shivering Touch that isn't very good.

Without trying at all you take a basic 14 Dex, rock a Bard song and pop a Knowledge Devotion, and that gets you straight in that range. If you did in fact try you'd do much better... and since you only actually need 17 you can do much worse and still auto hit the "insurmountable" touch AC (which just leads me to believe you, and other Denners would cry like little bitches if I ran a game for you for five minutes).

+5 BaB. +2 Dex. Let's say +5 from Knowledge Devotion. That means your bard cohort is adding +8 to your attack roll, at the very least. That, or you're full of shit, not only playing Schrödinger's Wizard, but doing a piss-poor job of even that game. I know which explanation I believe, given your track record of 0 builds to support your cockmunching.

There is a wildy incorrect, but very common, Bard build on the optimization boards that uses an obviously bad reading of Words of Creation to get bonuses that high.

GC is an incestuous child of the CharOp boards and an armchair gamer with little real experience. This is why he tends to be wrong on fundamental rules questions and doesn't actually know how to make the actual judgements needed to be good at DnD.

I don't think he even can stat up these hypothetical encounters since people on CharOP boards don't stat up monsters, just PCs. There is nothing for him to copy.

Remember how he tried to get us to stat up some killer monsters in another thread? He was probably trying to do the research to troll another board with this same kind of thread, but he couldn't do it with his low skill level.

[Mr. GC]

Flying pounces. Only way that might actually work is if the dragon is straight up since ascending is half speed for non perfect maneuverability. That in turn requires the line breath, which means it doesn't hit all the party and is lucky to hit half. A cone breath means 50 feet which is easy engagement range.

Oh, so as long as the kiting dragon doesn't have flyby attack you can totally hit it with melee attacks...

Oh wait, that would be stupid.

So I guess we are back to you playing on easy mode. Someone should make a list of all the things Monsters are not allowed to do because it would be too hard for your poor PCs.

Except that what actually happens is the dragon flies overhead at a distance of 50 or 100, and at some point during that breathes, and then keeps going. So instead of being 50 or 100 feet directly overhead it is that distance up and some distance over... which means it is actually easier to reach, because you are a dumbass and didn't read the maneuverability rules I just pointed out before saying that.

And what K is actually babbling about was that I asked for items for a troll monster, as in a monster that trolls the party. The only reason I put that thread up is because I wanted to see if different perspectives would show me something I missed. They didn't. I didn't get a single useful idea from that thread. Not a single one. And the creature was already made, so his claim I was trying to get people to make it for me is blatantly false... Also laughably false, since if I did outsource statblock making to the Den they'd give me some fucking garbage gimp monsters, the sort of shit I could let 9 year olds faceroll for the lols.

After all, this is the board where Rogues fear lightning bolt, parties that include both a Druid and a Wizard fear dragon strafing, and touch ACs below 20 are considered high at mid levels.

Meanwhile, my mooks hit harder than this supposedly deadly dragon breath. So yeah. Why would I trust you fucks to do my work for me again?

[Mistborn]

I'd really like to see the statblocks for one of these ubermonsters that GC is on about.

Still GC is sort of right about the dragon. At the maximum the dragon is what 150-200ft away from the party after flyby strafing and thus likely still in range of many spells. Plus even if the party can't reach the dragon at that distance they probably can via readied actions while the dragon is attacking them. Then again this is the place that faps to rogues and their 30ft sneak attack range.

[Orion]

Does anyone know what the whole Rogue/Lightning Bolt thing is about?

[Kaelik]

Still GC is sort of right about the dragon. At the maximum the dragon is what 150-200ft away from the party after flyby strafing and thus likely still in range of many spells. Plus even if the party can't reach the dragon at that distance they probably can via readied actions while the dragon is attacking them. Then again this is the place that faps to rogues and their 30ft sneak attack range.

I never said that no one can cast spells on the Dragon, but good luck since the average Dragon of your CR fails saves on a 3-4 and has a huge pile of HP. And of course, most ray attack spells that are worth casting have a range of short, so you might be able to hit the dragon with a readied action at the exact moment he is over head, if he has a cone breath.

But since GC's actual contention was that you could melee the dragon, and you definitely can't melee the dragon that is 40-100ft above you and 100-200ft laterally away, you sure cannot melee charge him, since even Fly + Haste is only 180ft, and it is half distance going up.

But frankly, I find it extra funny that GC doesn't understand triangles. He thinks it is easier to reach a Dragon who is 50ft up and 150ft over than to reach the same dragon 50ft up. After all, flyby attack makes it easier to reach dragons with melee attacks...

[Mr. GC]

Does anyone know what the whole Rogue/Lightning Bolt thing is about?

Someone linked a thread in which Frank and K were bitching about how hard Red Hand of Doom is. I don't doubt they actually found it difficult as they had an all Rogue party which is about the worst party imaginable, beating out even mono Fighter and mono Monk. In it, they cited Wyrmlord Koth, one of the worst built Sorcerers imaginable and whose best trick is Lightning Bolt as if he were an actual threat to be feared. Even though, as they also pointed out he had no Concentration, no defensive spells, and no flight so some chuckle fuck can just walk over to him and turn him from taking weak actions to no actions at all.

That thread is full of hilarity and a testament to just how bad people here are at D&D, but "Rogues should fear Lightning Bolt" is the most iconic example because about the only things Rogues DO end up doing right is not dying to weak Reflex save based spells.

[Kaelik]

Someone linked a thread in which Frank and K were bitching about how hard Red Hand of Doom is.

So... you can't read?

The entire point of that thread is that Red Hand of Doom is actually easy as balls. They of course win the whole thing, but they know that it is only because they are better than the average, and do things unconventionally. They know that really bad people like you also play the game, and so they recognize that you might very well die. For example, because you would have a not rogue, and you would think that walking upstairs into CL 10 lightning bolts at level 5 isn't going to kill you.

You look like an idiot.