ST/WH40K wanky fanboy question.

[Maxus]

Snuff and Unseen Academicals were a little more overt about it. Snuff is pretty damning of the aristocracy and its habits.

And Unseen Academicals is sort condemning lower-class mentality that keeps them from advancing. Not wanting to stick out, etc. The Crab Bucket.

Monstrous Regiment was...well, blind patriotism, among other things.

Side note, I need to find my copy of Wintersmith and re-read it.

[Koumei]

Ah, Unseen Academicals, yeah. And I haven't read Snuff or Monstrous Regiment.

[Grek]

They don't even stock Snuff in my area. Monstrous Regiment was pretty pro-feminist.

[Maxus]

It's also one of my favorites.

My order is pretty much:

Small Gods
Night Watch
Going Postal
Wee Free Men/Wintersmith
Feet of Clay
Monstrous Regiment

[Zinegata]

TL:DR, Picard used a fancy set of beams and forcefields to kill a Borg who was not yet adapted to them.

That's one of the Borg wankers argument, but there are also other scenes where Worf simply cutting one up with a sword. So either the Borgs had never, ever met anyone with swords, or their shields really do just protect against phasers. What's more likely?

Borg drone shields simply do not protect against physical weapons. Again, Walking Dead > The Borg.

Also, the "Federation doesn't use MGs because they don't work" argument is silly. They may not work against the Borg, but they'll work against the JemHadar who attack in fucking column formation and don't have stupid "adaptive" shields. One MG and that whole idiocy in the Siege of ARL-whatever would have been over and done with.

The Federation military is really simply that stupid and forgot about how "We have the Maxim gun, they do not".

[K]

TL:DR, Picard used a fancy set of beams and forcefields to kill a Borg who was not yet adapted to them.

That's one of the Borg wankers argument, but there are also other scenes where Worf simply cutting one up with a sword. So either the Borgs had never, ever met anyone with swords, or their shields really do just protect against phasers. What's more likely?

Borg drone shields simply do not protect against physical weapons. Again, Walking Dead > The Borg.

Also, the "Federation doesn't use MGs because they don't work" argument is silly. They may not work against the Borg, but they'll work against the JemHadar who attack in fucking column formation and don't have stupid "adaptive" shields. One MG and that whole idiocy in the Siege of ARL-whatever would have been over and done with.

The Federation military is really simply that stupid and forgot about how "We have the Maxim gun, they do not".

The likeliest explanation is that Borg armor is too tough for bullets and melee combat and only mega-strength aliens have a chance of cutting through it or punching a Borg hard enough to matter. Borg operate freely in the vacuum of space, wear body armor, and regenerate minor wounds almost instantly, and I think that says "durable as fuck" to me.

There is a reason that ONLY Data and Worf kill Borg in hand-to-hand even a couple of times. No one else is strong enough to get through the basic black armor that Borg wear.

Jem'Hadar are probably bullet-proof too considering that they require much more powerful phaser blasts to take down.

[Username17]

TL:DR, Picard used a fancy set of beams and forcefields to kill a Borg who was not yet adapted to them.

That's one of the Borg wankers argument, but there are also other scenes where Worf simply cutting one up with a sword. So either the Borgs had never, ever met anyone with swords, or their shields really do just protect against phasers. What's more likely?

Well, they also laugh at most other primitive weaponry, so I'm guessing they have some sort of Dune-style shield that protects them from fast moving objects, but not from gas or swords. Also their nanites appear to make them essentially immune to most poisons, so the gas won't work well. And while this setup appears to make fighting moves super effective, remember that they are also super strong.

---

On the Pratchett thing, his worst foray into political navel gazing was Interesting Times, where he basically takes the Beatles position that "revolutions == bad, and you shouldn't follow Mao". It features both Rincewind and a yak farmer who is as much of a stand-in for the author's views as John Galt was for Ayn Rand pausing the action to make speeches that are more to the audience than to the people in the book. And the message is:

I know about people who talk about suffering for the common good. It's never bloody them! When you hear a man shouting "Forward, brave comrades!" you'll see he's the one behind the bloody big rock and the one wearing the only really arrow-proof helmet!

In addition to being the most boring book he wrote before he got Alzheimer's (let's face it: Unseen Academicals is boring to the point of madness), it's also preachy and the point he's making is frankly insane. According to him, if you live under a repressive regime, you shouldn't try to do anything about it, because revolutionary leaders might be cowards. Or something. I'm sure the people of Egypt, and for that matter the United States agree whole heartedly. Oh wait, they don't.

-Username17

[Maxus]

None of the Rincewind books are his best work.

The basic plot of any Rincewind book is "Rincewind runs away from all kinds of stuff, remains sort of a straight man to all this crazy happening around him, and sees a lot of weird things. There's a lot of references that he passes by at speed."

Well, I take it back. I kinda liked Sourcery. It had some neat stuff happening in there.

[K]

Small Gods, Sourcery, Reaper Man, and Soul Music are my favorites.

And Faust Eric is a fun one.

Gun to head, maybe Small Gods as my #1.

[rasmuswagner]

Back when Terry Pratchett's work was less about a political message (which I love) and more about "crazy things happening to a really unlucky dude who is the only person who doesn't just treat it like a jolly caper" (which I also like).

Terry Pratchett has a political message now? Motherfvcker! Stop fvcking with my childhood, universe!

Sam Vimes jumps the shark in Thud! and is paraded around for the authors message in Snuff.

At least Pratchett's views are (mostly) ones I can get behind, unlike say Orson Scott Card.

[Maxus]

Gun to head, maybe Small Gods as my #1.

Same.

I think we ought to move this to the Books We're Reading thread, though I'm just as guilty of sidetracking as anyone else.

[Koumei]

My dad introduced me to the Discworld via Mort, so that one will always have a special place in my heart. I think I prefer the earlier, "sillier" ones in general, though Vimes' grumpiness is always nice.

On Fighting being Super-Effective against the Borg, that just goes without saying: they're Steel Type.

[talozin]

My dad introduced me to the Discworld via Mort, so that one will always have a special place in my heart. I think I prefer the earlier, "sillier" ones in general, though Vimes' grumpiness is always nice.

Yeah, the last Pratchett book I read was Wyrd Sisters. I was super psyched because I picked it up on a trip to England, and, his books being slow to cross the Atlantic at the time, Mort had just barely come out in the States. But I've never heard of most of the books you guys are citing. Maybe it's just as well.

[Wesley Street]

The Empire/Republic encourages breeding Nietzschean ubermensch and crushing rebellion through military might.

The United Federation of Planets encourages the power of friendship and cooperation.

Federation FTW.

[Maxus]

My dad introduced me to the Discworld via Mort, so that one will always have a special place in my heart. I think I prefer the earlier, "sillier" ones in general, though Vimes' grumpiness is always nice.

Yeah, the last Pratchett book I read was Wyrd Sisters. I was super psyched because I picked it up on a trip to England, and, his books being slow to cross the Atlantic at the time, Mort had just barely come out in the States. But I've never heard of most of the books you guys are citing. Maybe it's just as well.

No. Dude. Thou Shalt Read Small Gods. And Feet of Clay. Actually, just read all of the City Watch books. And all of the Witch books, including the YA spinoff series.

Terry Pratchett's done 39 books in the Discworld series. I can happily recommend about thirty-three of those. Discworld is worth reading extensively.

[Koumei]

Yeah. Some of his books are boring. Some are a bit preachy (often with messages I agree with so I can overlook them, though Interesting Times is an exception there). But overall they're a good read - generally thanks to the writing style and the characters.

[Zinegata]

There is a reason that ONLY Data and Worf kill Borg in hand-to-hand even a couple of times. No one else is strong enough to get through the basic black armor that Borg wear.

Except that we've actually seen Klingons in close combat with humans and Bajorans, and while Klingons may have be physically stronger than humans, it is not to superhuman levels to the point it's basically Superman vs bank robbers. Otherwise, Sisko would have been sent flying around his bridge station like a ping-pong ball, or sliced in half by Klingon swords instead of actually being able to block and deflect blows from "super human" Klingons.

Frank mentions "Dune-like shields" that most other sci-fi settings have, which is possible but again we haven't actually seen them in action.

Moreover...

Jem'Hadar are probably bullet-proof too considering that they require much more powerful phaser blasts to take down.

Talking about both the Borg and Jem'Hadar here... but massively powerful armor piercing bullets are already available in the 20th Century. See the .50 cal machine gun. And even if we assume they have body armor, it is very hard to argue against something that can punch you literally thousands of times a minute. MGs are useful in the real world and just about every other sci-fi setting ever because More Dakka does, in fact, work.

You'd really have to assume that the Federation was always infallible for the "MGs don't work anymore" argument to hold. But that's totally not true even within the show - since at one point Kira in DS9 actually says Federation rifles were stupid compared to Cardassian ones because the Federation version is fragile and full of useless scanning gear.

TL;DR: Star Trek needs to hire a proper military consultant, instead of just relying on a writer whose dad was a Guadalcanal veteran because this is how you get silly segments like enemies in column formation being a threat.

[RadiantPhoenix]

at one point Kira in DS9 actually says Federation rifles were stupid compared to Cardassian ones because the Federation version is fragile and full of useless scanning gear.

I would imagine that one would want scanning gear on (something that has a setting that makes it) a wide-angle disintegration beam, to help control collateral damage if nothing else.

The quote I saw about the Federation rifles only said, “... A little less powerful, but with a lot more options: sixteen beam settings, fully autonomous recharge, multiple target acquisition, gyrostablized . . . the works.” though.

i.e.:
* It can recharge itself on its own
* It can auto-aim at multiple targets at once.
* It holds itself steady

Those seem like pretty useful features.

[K]

There is a reason that ONLY Data and Worf kill Borg in hand-to-hand even a couple of times. No one else is strong enough to get through the basic black armor that Borg wear.

Except that we've actually seen Klingons in close combat with humans and Bajorans, and while Klingons may have be physically stronger than humans, it is not to superhuman levels to the point it's basically Superman vs bank robbers. Otherwise, Sisko would have been sent flying around his bridge station like a ping-pong ball, or sliced in half by Klingon swords instead of actually being able to block and deflect blows from "super human" Klingons.

Klingons aren't Superman, but they are dramatically stronger than humans. Any blocking on the part of humans is probably because they block at the point in the Klingon's swing where they have the least power and leverage.

In several rather icky episodes, Klingons are "break bones and maybe kill you during sex even when they are trying not to" strong. Given any leverage at all, they seem to be able to perform superhuman strength pretty well.

That's how real superhuman strength would work. Comics superhuman strength is just dressed-up telekinesis and doesn't follow any laws of physics. We can't even talk about Superman without admitting that he can't catch falling planes without ripping them in half unless he has some kind of penetrating telekinesis that negates mass and inertia on a large area.

Jem'Hadar are probably bullet-proof too considering that they require much more powerful phaser blasts to take down.

Talking about both the Borg and Jem'Hadar here... but massively powerful armor piercing bullets are already available in the 20th Century. See the .50 cal machine gun. And even if we assume they have body armor, it is very hard to argue against something that can punch you literally thousands of times a minute. MGs are useful in the real world and just about every other sci-fi setting ever because More Dakka does, in fact, work.

Why wouldn't sci-fi armor be equal to the task?

We are literally taking about races that grow to adulthood in days. Having defeated conservation of mass, I think that deflecting AP rounds fired at the limits of physics with some sort of sci-fi techno-organic armor is well within their wheelhouse.

[Just another user]

The more I hear about WH40K, the more I think a group of argumentative children wrote it. With crayons.

[...]

(The only bit not in WH40K is the three dicks. Probably.)

I never noticed before how WH40K sound a little like Axe Cop.

[Zinegata]

at one point Kira in DS9 actually says Federation rifles were stupid compared to Cardassian ones because the Federation version is fragile and full of useless scanning gear.

I would imagine that one would want scanning gear on (something that has a setting that makes it) a wide-angle disintegration beam, to help control collateral damage if nothing else.

Actually, the show makes it pretty clear that Kira is commenting on how the Federation is simply not thinking in terms of war fighting yet and is still stuck in this "We are explorers, not warriors!" mindset.

Sure, avoiding collateral damage is great in a diplomatic situation like the ones we usually see in TNG. But when you get into an actual shooting war with warp-capable enemies, then you have to recognize that the gloves have to come off.

Interestingly, there was some attempts to rectify this in-show. They eventually replace the hand phaser (a very, very awful piece of gear for shooting anything) with some actual usable rifles by First Contact.

Why wouldn't sci-fi armor be equal to the task?

We are literally taking about races that grow to adulthood in days. Having defeated conservation of mass, I think that deflecting AP rounds fired at the limits of physics with some sort of sci-fi techno-organic armor is well within their wheelhouse.

Because no matter how strong the armor is, you're still ultimately absorbing the kinetic energy of thousands of bullets. This is why Kevlar may protect you from a bullet or two, but gets shredded to bits with sustained fire.

At the very minimum, even if we assume that the Jem Hadar are immune to regular bullets (which they aren't, otherwise again silly HTH wouldn't work against them), the Federation could still have developed a sustained-fire weapon capable of spitting out a ton of phaser shots every second.

Power problems you say? Well, remember that the Siege of AR-whatever was fought with the Federation on the defensive. They could have actually set down a small reactor which powers a Phaser Machine Gun (and they apparently had a weapon like this during the original series, albeit they used it as a digging / boring device).

They didn't, which again leads back to Kira's commentary that the Feds aren't infallible and have glaring holes in their mindset.

[K]

Why wouldn't sci-fi armor be equal to the task?

We are literally taking about races that grow to adulthood in days. Having defeated conservation of mass, I think that deflecting AP rounds fired at the limits of physics with some sort of sci-fi techno-organic armor is well within their wheelhouse.

Because no matter how strong the armor is, you're still ultimately absorbing the kinetic energy of thousands of bullets. This is why Kevlar may protect you from a bullet or two, but gets shredded to bits with sustained fire.

Who says that you are absorbing the energy of thousands of bullets?

This is a scif-fi universe with materials that don't obey most laws of physics. For fuck's sake, Dominion soldiers have personal biological cloaks or energy weapons and Borg grow metal implants in seconds in defiance of conservation of mass and energy, so assuming that either can't be made of some weird techno-organic exotic material with bizarre physical properties is silly.

For all we know, high-end kinetic weapons might just bounce off them, reflecting 99.99% of the energy, but low-end kinetic attacks work fine (H2H). It makes sense because of sci-fi magic in the same way as warp drive and teleportation and aliens with magic powers.

At the very minimum, even if we assume that the Jem Hadar are immune to regular bullets (which they aren't, otherwise again silly HTH wouldn't work against them), the Federation could still have developed a sustained-fire weapon capable of spitting out a ton of phaser shots every second.

Power problems you say? Well, remember that the Siege of AR-whatever was fought with the Federation on the defensive. They could have actually set down a small reactor which powers a Phaser Machine Gun (and they apparently had a weapon like this during the original series, albeit they used it as a digging / boring device).

They didn't, which again leads back to Kira's commentary that the Feds aren't infallible and have glaring holes in their mindset.

I wouldn't call them glaring holes, but efficiencies.

The Federation makes badass general ships and weapons that can be used for a variety of purposes. They do not make battleships or weapons designed to be used by rag-tag revolutionaries in guerrilla wars.

So Kira is correct is calling out the Federation for not making specialized weapons of war for everyday use. The Feds actually make weapons with stun settings and shit because needing to kill a large number of people in close combat is considered a very rare occurrence.

But Kira is wrong in assuming that the Feds are not capable of doing war or have blind spots. They made The Defiant, for example, a wildly overpowered warship with a cloak for no other purpose than kicking ass, and it's been mentioned that they have stuff like personal shields when they go to war.

Not just that, but they are smart enough to turn com-badges into force shields capable of deflecting holodeck bullets (name that episode!) or turn an enemy's mine field against them (name those episodes!). In the hands of geniuses, generalist weapons seem to be the best choice if their war record is any indication.

[virgil]

Not just that, but they are smart enough to turn com-badges into force shields capable of deflecting holodeck bullets (name that episode!)...

Wasn't the combadge just a battery, and the field generator itself was from a telegraph?

[K]

Not just that, but they are smart enough to turn com-badges into force shields capable of deflecting holodeck bullets (name that episode!)...

Wasn't the combadge just a battery, and the field generator itself was from a telegraph?

Maybe. A telegraph is just a couple of pieces of metal and wire, so it's not like it's some kind of advanced fusion of technologies.

I made one in grade-school (a telegraph, not a com-badge).

[Calibron]

I apologize if this has been addressed, but I'd really rather not wade through all 12 pages of this. What's to stop the federation from becoming a federation of habitation ships instead of a federation of planets whilst they are on a war footing and becoming 100% untouchable by everything in the 40k universe, sans psyker shenanigans?