James Wyatt must be stopped.

[shadzar]

not sure who the original "must be stopped" meme came from, but dont care either...

The game is about killing things and taking their stuff, not traipsing through faerie rings and talking to the little people.

We get it Rev Wyatt, your bible-thumping nature despises mythology that does not agree with your religion because you cannot separate real world from fantasy/fiction. (not even getting into the fiction that is considered religion in the real world)

You do not udnerstand or like Fay. Yes, Fay means fairy, while Fey is a term WotC made up to use for them all from the "psycho supernatural behavior" meaning of it, because they and you love to rewrite the English language with the excuse of it being a "game specific term". English is a strong language only when you do not do stupid things with it and end up confusing yourself like we see this week.

We had Jon S confused as well, because NONE of you seem to understand the mythology.

The Fair Folk

So that leads us back to my original question: What are fey?

Fey is a term you created to mean all those things you mentioned, the greek, celtic, and other mythologies into one condensed keyword for D&D. This is why you and the others cannot understand them. They dont all fit together nor should they try to be fit together. Yes they are all pegs, but you wont get the square peg in the round hole. you will have to modify it, then it will no longer be the square peg, and you have lost something, a key identifying characteristic.

Speaking as a guy who tried more than once to design a prestige class in 3rd Edition that made you progressively "more fey," I can tell you that it's hard to identify characteristics those creatures have in common-at least rules characteristics.

the simple reason is because fey as they are implied in D&D dont exist, and combining the real world analogies to them cannot be done! Those you list come from different places. (dryad, grig, nixie, nymph, pixie, and satyr)

the simple common thing they share is they are spirits, not mortal, not gods. expand your religious knowledge of the real world and maybe you can understand this as MANY religions have worshiped or revered entities that they did not see as gods, but life forces of things such as nature. This is why you cannot create your CLASS from something that is extremely close to a RACE in D&D terms. do you understand anything?

I havent gotten past the question yet and am backtracking the article with this so far, but up to this point, you fail to understand like many others, that when you use the name of an existing thing it carries with it certain meanings that people expect. LGBT nymphs/dryads arent going to work, no matter how feminists or whatever were trying to tell Jon S about the artwork. people know otherwise, and some people wish to PRESERVE history, for TRUTH sake, and facts, so that OTHERS may learn from it, not retcon it to be PC.

so how do you appease the LGBT, feminists, and PC people crying misogyny and sexism? DONT USE THINGS THAT EXIST!

just like Jon refused to think, nymph to many had better damn well mean a nubile female representing natures bounty.. and nature being earth means the ability to give birth. D&D PCs and NPCs arent seahorses, and males dont give birth. So do NOT use a nymph. create a creature just for D&D if you need to that is not connected by the name nymph but has the same general ideas. and of course by create i mean DESIGN, that important word in the job title of game DESIGNER. someone create the stupid eBerron constructs that were forced as PC races in 4th. it shouldnt be hard for you, James, to design a new range of monsters. you are a qualified game designers right, RIGHT?

back to read the rest of the article, but i fear you probably still havent learned what "fey" are after you created the word, so i have little faith there will be anything of importance in the second half of it, other than to show you are incompetent to design games, or even understand that which you have designed yourself.

[tussock]

The fey seem fine, and I indeed think the Faerie was one of the few good things to come from 4e. That and the astral-spelljammer mashup, Orcs in Spaaaaaace. Scro. Genius.


Anyhoo, I see there's about 1,200 people answering their polls there. Which would imply 12k page views. Which would imply WotC needs to sell a lot of copies of each book to every one of those people to pay off this multi-year "let's not publish anything" gambit.

Hmmm. Maybe if they showed more nipple? I mean, last two polls were succubus and nymph, and not even an hint.

[shadzar]

Except that the nipple shown might not be that of a female. People want to make D&D PC, not that it was sterilized of demons and devils...which they brought back, and to retcon "real" mythology. so why use nymph or succubi if you aren't going to make them nymphs and succubi, but something else?

also the most people voting or replying on WotC site are likely 4th edition or general D&D name brand fanatics. 1200 players does not make up the whole of the D&D players, nor is it enough to support a new edition, when you consider 4th edition development costed 7 digits.

if all 1200 people bought 3 core books (PHB, DMG, MM) at current retail WotC likes of MSRP $50, and standard book mark-up holds true that WotC would get %25 of the MSRP (150/4). $37.50 per book set for jsut those 1200 people buying DDN core would only be $45ooo for WotC/HASBRO. they would be about $955ooo short of cost, aka in the red on DDN.

they jsut need to decide what they are going to use, and define it, and hope people accept it. Best would still be throw out the sacred cow monsters from mythology (there had to be some in that '96 list you mentioned n the other thread), and make NEW monsters JUST for D&D, and then no worry about existing connections to myth. was beholder and mind-flayer the extent of D&D creatures able to be created mostly new? Is the only thing left a Gooselion© (neck and head of a goose on a lions body), and other strange animal combinations such as manscorpion, manspider (drider), owlbear?

where monsters are concerned i think they really are hit with, the best stuff already being taken, and the only thing left is rename extremely generic stuff to things like warforged (golems).

dont even get me started on the ass-trail sea created for 4th. the great wheel was just as silly, because the game NEVER really worked as being on where you are or fight gods. even Immortals set from BECMI did the same thing 4th said a far as conversion goes, "keep these two or three things and recreate your character idea with these rules for a new game".

since "fey", as they call them are embodiments of natures spirits, they arent exactly empowered with all that is a god, so even traveling to a plane of "fey" isnt the same as being in the presence of a god. the astral plane covers all the "fey" and where the spirits come from anyway. continuing cosmology only because it is mentioned in the article and the "fey" being spirits, i always thought Final Fantasy the Spirits Within, did a good idea of what natures spirits and the life were. it neednt be that constrained to a force such as Gaea/Gaia, nor bacteria like the "force", but living energy being present n the ground isnt that far off. so being children of a god or connected to one, isnt required to have "spirits" or the world.

i think they just need to create their own stuff without connections to mythology and just go with it. they divorced from everything with 4th, so at least they arent afraid of it, and anyone can make their nymph for themselves however they want for their own games. Since they need to fill X pages in a MM with something and dont want to do 20 goblins again like 4th did, they jsut have to actually design something new or find existing material that is generic enough and not connected to researchable mythologies.

[Surgo]

If Shadzar doesn't agree with it, that can only mean that James Wyatt is on the right path. Keep on keeping on, James. At least that quoted line shows you understand what the game's about.

[hogarth]

I have to admit that I find the whole "these ain't your mamma's FAIRIES!!" thing a bit lame. Paizo has that kind of stuff (look at our eXXXtreme piXXXies!!!) as well. Yawn.

[shadzar]

now i am curious what pathfinder has for fairies...did they also jsut used a word that is well known and redefine it to something that has nothing to do with it? like their fairies have 8 arms are 10 feet tall made of rock and gas, and just have the name fairy slapped onto them?

[ModelCitizen]

Based on the Escapist's revelation that 4e was designed as a tabletop tie-in for an MMO that was never developed, I'm going to guess 4e's fey obsession was an idea for re-using art assets and level design. Take a map from the Material Plane, set fog color to green, and you've got the Feywild. You don't even need new meshes for mobs because you can just replace "crocodiles" with "feymire crocodiles." The Shadowfell would be the same shit but with dark purple fog.

[Josh_Kablack]

I find the whole "these ain't your mamma's FAIRIES!!" thing a bit lame. .

Yeah, if D&D is gonna rip-off 20+ year old automobile marketing campaigns, it could at least pick the marketing campaign from a automobile line which hasn't gone under.

[shadzar]

Based on the Escapist's revelation that 4e was designed as a tabletop tie-in for an MMO that was never developed, I'm going to guess 4e's fey obsession was an idea for re-using art assets and level design. Take a map from the Material Plane, set fog color to green, and you've got the Feywild. You don't even need new meshes for mobs because you can just replace "crocodiles" with "feymire crocodiles." The Shadowfell would be the same shit but with dark purple fog.

based on the "state of D&D 3" portion i bothered to read, Andy Collins was a moron and still is, for trying to turn D&D into online games, european board games, card games, and the other sources he looked for rules elements.

i think they just needed a catchy similar KEYWORD for 4th, and fay/fae for fairy was used since elves are just big wingless fairies right? and they took the common misspelling to avoid confusion and try to copyright the term.

can i see many of the things called "fey" as fairies, yes. but some clearly not in my mind of those listed by James and Jon. for the "supernatural" classification of "fey", well every damn big of magic in D&D is supernatural compared to humans, so that means orcs, goblins, dragons, all non-mammals in the game are "fey", and that just doesnt work.

they need to throw out their keyword book for making video games and make a TT game, before they lose ALL audiences, because the TTRPG is the only thing that will carry the D&D name, least we go back to D&D cross-stitch patterns and woodburning kits, or just apply D&D themes to Monopoly, Clue, Connect F-orcs, etc.

continuing down the path of word obfuscation and redefining is only showing inept or lazy design. if you cant come up with a new name for something, they why should anyone believe you could come up with good stories or ideas, and thus create things that fit in those stories and rules to use them?

[Leress]

shad, Dnd has word obfuscation since before 3rd.

[shadzar]

shad, Dnd has word obfuscation since before 3rd.

i hope you are not trying to "level" a specific case of this argument are you?

at least for the most part you could look in Websters or Funk & Wagnalls and look the word up and it agreed with D&D

[Leress]

shad, Dnd has word obfuscation since before 3rd.

i hope you are not trying to "level" a specific case of this argument are you?

at least for the most part you could look in Websters or Funk & Wagnalls and look the word up and it agreed with D&D

My examples would be drow and duergar.

[shadzar]

shad, Dnd has word obfuscation since before 3rd.

i hope you are not trying to "level" a specific case of this argument are you?

at least for the most part you could look in Websters or Funk & Wagnalls and look the word up and it agreed with D&D

My examples would be drow and duergar.

sadly i have a hard time finding info on the drow except that it is the idea Tolkien used to get darkened elves, aka orcs.

deurgar i never heard of being in english before D&D and never found it outside of D&D.

[Previn]

sadly i have a hard time finding info on the drow except that it is the idea Tolkien used to get darkened elves, aka orcs.

deurgar i never heard of being in english before D&D and never found it outside of D&D.

Look harder?

No really, took like 30 seconds.

[shadzar]

ok an alternate spelling and meaning for dwarf... nope, never found it on or off wikipedia.

still nothing new provided there on the drow/trow i didnt already know...

[Aryxbez]

Based on the Escapist's revelation that 4e was designed as a tabletop tie-in for an MMO that was never developed,

Not sure, but I think I may've read this article once, was it like an interview to Mike Mearls or something? Otherwise, I'm requesting if you could show the link to which this connection was made, and/or the relevant bits in said link.

Though, D&D "is" primarily about fighting monsters and like, I'm pretty sure even Munchkin's jokes are based on older D&D, including their "The Munchkin's Guide to Power Gaming." joke book referenced AD&D as I recall. It's heroes who set out into dungeons, full of danger, battling off dangerous monsters, and traps, to get the lovely treasures inside to hall back to town for good times, retirement, and more stuff to use to better in entering dungeons and fighting the monsters (and the loop goes on), just of course, open ended nature, create stories with it.

[Blasted]

I recall EGG posting on Dragon's foot saying something along the lines of "Sometimes, we just handwave going back to town, because it's all about the dungeon".

[ishy]

Based on the Escapist's revelation that 4e was designed as a tabletop tie-in for an MMO that was never developed,

Not sure, but I think I may've read this article once, was it like an interview to Mike Mearls or something? Otherwise, I'm requesting if you could show the link to which this connection was made, and/or the relevant bits in said link.

I don't know which revelation ModelCitizen is talking about, but I absolutely adore the interview Mearls gave on RPGCodex.net that I found googling.

As far as I know, 4th edition was the first set of rules to look to videogames for inspiration. I wasn’t involved in the initial design meetings for the game, but I believe that MMOs played a role in how the game was shaped. I think there was a feeling that D&D needed to move into the MMO space as quickly as possible and that creating a set of MMO-conversion friendly rules would help hasten that.

And I don't even mean the 4e was designed to move into MMO space, but the best part for me is that Mearls is trying to distance himself from fouth editions design as best he can.

[Neeeek]

Based on the Escapist's revelation that 4e was designed as a tabletop tie-in for an MMO that was never developed.

It's in development. I've played the pre-alpha demo.

EDIT: and as expected, 4th ed works far, far better as an MMO.

[shadzar]

I recall EGG posting on Dragon's foot saying something along the lines of "Sometimes, we just handwave going back to town, because it's all about the dungeon".

coming from someone who's roots lay firmly in wargaming, i am not surprised.

the thing is the game he created was supposed to stop there. he wasn't interested in a career in D&D, rather he wanted a career in game design. TSR started to make games, not game.

when his partner died and the widow wanting out, he had to do something to change things thus AD&D and Holmes Basic was created, which also cut out Dave.at that point it was too late to turn back, and Gary was too old to change i guess. he stillw anted to make other games, but was forced by players wanting more an more D&D, and he still liked miniature games, thus the miniature ruler measurements in AD&D which were a part of LOS and measured in inches.

yet he still used myth closely, while not caring to be an actor or trying to make people think you had to be an actor. i think he feared the extreme that was LARPing and idiots running around saying things like "im a level 36 DM".

and he also wrote novels. so that with the mythology he derived from, he might not have wanted to go back to town personally because, well, he had been writing story the whole time and was ready to play; but he still did use the origins closely just like Tolkien did.

i mean Tolkien used "orc" as a demon, and so did Gary, and "ork" was first used in the middle-ages in i think a german origin poem...ork meaning a named trickster cave demon. "ork" having the same origins as "pork", and both D&D and LotR orcs have pig-like features and shapes.

should Gary have make D&D orcs pink and wearing flowers, would it have gone over as well as a monster? maybe Gary just wasnt any good with the impromptu story so going back to town was much different than having months to research and write and alter the myth into a D&D creature or place?

[Prak]

Based on the Escapist's revelation that 4e was designed as a tabletop tie-in for an MMO that was never developed.

It's in development. I've played the pre-alpha demo.

EDIT: and as expected, 4th ed works far, far better as an MMO.

Yeah, playing the Castle Ravenloft board game, I was struck by how much better it works as a board game.

[shadzar]

oh here he goes again with failed poll options because they are loaded without proper options.
. http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx ... nd/2012124 .

How about the eladrin?
1-Get rid of the Feywild eladrin and keep the celestial eladrin.
2-Your proposed solution sounds good.
3-Get rid of the celestial eladrin and keep the 4E Feywild eladrin.

4. Get rid of the eladrin completely, they don't belong in D&D.

either his new method is right, or use one of two other methods, no option to excise them from the game.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

Just remember, Des. You're doing this to yourself.

I know I am going to regret asking this... but why don't Eladrin belong in D&D?

[Winnah]

The etymology of the word is appears to be bastardised Welsh.

Ellyll being a fairy, goblin or demon. Drin referring to literal ascension, as in climbing.

The only time I have seen the El contraction as a prefix would be on the English adopted word eldritch. Drych referring to the appearence of something.

I'm probably way of the mark.

[shadzar]

I'm probably way of the mark.

as far as why I think they dont belong in D&D, yes. as for origins of the word.. i have no idea!

there were even more below that poll quesiton that had similar bad options that forced you to vote their way, but at the time i posted that i didnt feel like reading them all i jsut closed the page and went back to my "value of a GP" math.

grey/sylvan, wood/high, sylvanesti/qualinesti, etc divisions of elves already exist.

4th just pulled eladrin out of its ass to replace high elf, and used the word elf, for wood elves. this was done in part for their sidestep/phase walking/whatever the fuck 4th edition power to interact with the Feywild, that was created for 4th cosmology. you do not need TWO races of elves because some gamer gets a chub for elves. there is only 1 dwarf race, and adding ANY more human "races" would only create racism in the game akin to the real world, ergo all humans are humans in D&D.

there was 11 PC races, IIRC, for 4th, and two of them were elves. that just makes no sense. ALL races could be subject to the humans rule, and allow them to all be the same enough to have the same abilities. you want some city elves and forest elves, just say they are from the city and do city things, and from the forest and do forest things. it doesnt change the fact that they are both elves.