Fighters doing stuff outside of combat

[Prak]

1197415083[/unixtime]]Fighters should just be folded into Rogues and Knights should be folded into Paladins.

or vise versa... paladin is really just a knight that takes his orders from Good rather than King Daxall, and rogue is really just a fighter who happens to stab you in the back more often than the face.

In fact, the rogue could be a fighter who picks up a Sneak Attack feat and "city" as his preferred environment, with bluff, diplomacy, gather info, disable device and pick pockets as recon skills.

[Bigode]

Sigma: how do you destroy stuff better than a high-level wizard?

Frank: what's wrong with calling a lot of fiction protagonists RoW fighters?

[NoDot]

1197419910[/unixtime]]Frank: what's wrong with calling a lot of fiction protagonists RoW fighters?

They aren't all. The RoW Fighter is an example of the Heroic Archetype-heros and antivillains. The Rogue is the Villainous Archetype-antiheros and villains.

Yes, that's a big generalization.

[Bigode]

No heroes with Move Silently in class? Or what? I'm pretty sure there are heroes in both classes.

[NoDot]

I believe the RoW Fighter has Move Silently on its class list.

[Crissa]

Just because a skill is on the class list doesn't mean they have that skill.

There are 36 skills in core. A character has from 6 to 29 skills on their list... And only gets to take at most 13 of them at first level.

And that's not counting skills you have to take more than once, setting dependent skills, languages, etc!

Ugh.

I know this because of trying to optimize it.

-Crissa

[Bigode]

People have asked in surprise in the past about exactly that - it doesn't, and it looks like it was on purpose; see here.

[RandomCasualty]

1197416084[/unixtime]]
or vise versa... paladin is really just a knight that takes his orders from Good rather than King Daxall, and rogue is really just a fighter who happens to stab you in the back more often than the face.

In fact, the rogue could be a fighter who picks up a Sneak Attack feat and "city" as his preferred environment, with bluff, diplomacy, gather info, disable device and pick pockets as recon skills.

That's how i see it.

[JonSetanta]

1197419910[/unixtime]]Sigma: how do you destroy stuff better than a high-level wizard?

Oh, I'll find a way.

I'm making a class called the "Exploder" to pick up the slack where Evocation has failed.
It'll using concepts from the tweaked Evocations here, including status effects topped with explosions and maybe a pre-emptive stab at an Explosive Spell fix (before Keith gets to it!):

http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewth ... &postnum=0

[NoDot]

1197276607[/unixtime]]Spell Practice [skill-Spellcraft]
You learned some spellcasting.
Benefit: Spellcraft is always a class skill for you.
6: You cast spells not unlike a Sorcerer of a level equal to your ranks in Spellcraft minus five. The DCs of your spells granted form this feat are determined my your INT score. You do not get extra spells per day with a high INT or CHA score. You do not suffer Arcane Spell Failure in armour that you are proficient with.
Special: No, you don't get to take this spell more than once!

Sometimes, you need to deliver a warning, so here's a version which works a little better:

Student of the Arcane [general]
You spent time practicing arcane spellcasting. (This feat scales by your character level.)
Benefit: For each character level you possess, you may select one spell off of the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list to permanently memorize. You may not select a spell of a level higher than one less than one half (rounded down) of your character level. (If this passes below zero, you may select a zero-level spell.) The result is given in the table below:

Code: Select all

Lvl 0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9[br] 1  1  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -[br] 2  2  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -[br] 3  3  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -[br] 4  3  1  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -[br] 5  3  2  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -[br] 6  3  2  1  -  -  -  -  -  -  -[br] 7  3  2  2  -  -  -  -  -  -  -[br] 8  3  2  2  1  -  -  -  -  -  -[br] 9  3  2  2  2  -  -  -  -  -  -[br]10  3  2  2  2  1  -  -  -  -  -[br]11  3  2  2  2  2  -  -  -  -  -[br]12  3  2  2  2  2  1  -  -  -  -[br]13  3  2  2  2  2  2  -  -  -  -[br]14  3  2  2  2  2  2  1  -  -  -[br]15  3  2  2  2  2  2  2  -  -  -[br]16  3  2  2  2  2  2  2  1  -  -[br]17  3  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  -  -[br]18  3  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  1  -[br]19  3  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  -[br]20  3  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  2  1

Note: You may select a spell of a lower level than the highest you may learn.

Spells of the highest level you may learn may each be cast 3/day each. Spells of any level lower may be cast at will. If your highest level slot contains a spell of a level lower than the highest it could be, it is castable at will.

These spells are Spell-like Abilities, and the feats which metamagic Spell-like Abilities may metamagic these spells. However, you must still supply material and focus components over 1 gp in value. Also, you must supply Verbal and Somatic components for these spells, although you do not suffer arcane spell failure in armour in which you are proficient. If the spell has an XP cost, you must pay it.

Your caster level for these spells is equal to your character level. The stat which influences the DC of these spells is determined at the time you take this feat and cannot be changed.

[JonSetanta]

Ehh... I'm pushing for more of a "refer to the Sorcerer spell slot charts" mechanic rather than a new one. Maybe even the Wizard slots progression for caster, but retaining spells learned as Sorcerer. The worst of both.
My girlfriend expressed interest in this concept recently, but asked "what about Spellsword? I remember that seemed to be one of the few options for dabbling in magic, years ago."
That was 3.0 she referred to; now we have Eldritch Knight, which is still teh suck but OK.

I figure, it seems weak to have so few levels of some random spellcaster class plugged in at any time, but keep in mind that a warrior with half their levels counting as Cleric or Sorc can buff nicely before stomping around with their Righteous Might/Divine Power and such.

While I'd like that any time, even when facing NPCs doing the same, I don't think it's quite as underpowered as Frank makes it out to be.

[Koumei]

I like the channel ability the Spellsword had. Specifically, the fact that you could channel some really dumb stuff:

You're meant to channel Fireball, adding 10d6 Fire damage to your sword attack.

But instead, you channel Cloudkill (making smoke pour out of the wound into their square, affecting them any round that they are in their own square) or Deltane's Burning Tentacles (causing a fiery tentacle to grow from their wound and try to grapple them every round, in addition to piddly amounts of Fire damage).

[JonSetanta]

I have actually never seen Spellsword in action. Ever. Players would rather go all caster or warrior, not halfway.
So...

Ding! Spellcaster levels (slots as Wizard, spells known maximum as Sorc, choose from any class list) + portions of Spellsword in a single feat.
Damn, I should be keeping a list of these ideas.

There. TXT file for "to do". The next step is to not lose it.


The issue remains, though, of a solid caster level reduced by a set amount such as with NoDot's, or a fraction of your total levels (half or 3/4ths?), for advancement.

[Maxus]

The issue remains, though, of a solid caster level reduced by a set amount such as with NoDot's, or a fraction of your total levels (half or 3/4ths?), for advancement.

Therein lies the problem, huh? Levels that don't grant extra spellcasting ability are the traditional price you have to pay for mixing something with magic, just as LAs are the price you're supposed to pay for playing a stronger creature.

The problem is, those don't gaurantee you're getting fair value and you get abilities that let you contribute like someone who's not getting fancy.

So, in this case, maybe someone should explore and test some alternatives to getting a nerfed spellcaster level. For wizard/[class] gish classes, maybe they could lose another spellcasting school? Or pick up some limitations on their casting that don't actually screw them over any more than taking levels in a non-casting class did?

I agree there should be a price to pay for power, but it shouldn't be paying more power than what you're actually getting out of it...

Edit: On further reflection, it seems to me that the idea you can still have a caster/noncaster mix that doesn't have the full abilities of either a single caster or a single non-caster would be perfectly fine.

...Provided there are lots of spells that stay useful for several levels after you get them, like Color Spray. Either that or you get a bunch of darn useful utility spells.

But as it is, the majority of spells just aren't that good within a few levels after you get them.

...Although I do like Koumei's examples of Spellsword trickery, especially the one with the tentacle. That's the kind of synergy you should be getting from combining two classes.