ST/WH40K wanky fanboy question.

[Stahlseele]

Yeah, there was an AI Revolution.
That's why AI is outlawed in the Imperium of Man. Even Robots are.
The closest you get to these are the Cyborg-Slaves.

And technically speaking, the War should not be called the Horus Heresy, but the Lorgar Lapse.
Because it was that magnificient Bastard who started it all after the Emperor told him to get his Act together in terms of speed of conquest. And then burned his home-city/home planet to a cinder because Lorgar was a religious man and the Emperor did not like Religion.
LORGAR gave the Chaos infliction and the Weapon to the Man who wounded Horus to weaken Horus so the Chaos Gods could sway him over to their seide. He did this by forming the Warrior Lodges in the other Legions to convert some of them to his way of thinking so these close by to Horus would take him to Davin when he was wounded.

As for the Tau versus Daemons?
Not gonna happen. They are genetically barred from the warp.
No Presence there whatsoever, without being a race of complete Pariah.

And yes, Grandpappy Nurgle is, technically speaking, the best thing there is in that entire Universe. He is a genuinely nice guy, he doesn't make his followers suffer, they ENJOY being sick. It feels good to them. Nothing does hurt them anymore and he really treats them as close family. And i mean that in the way of inviting them over for a cold one and some story tellig. That his blessings are bad for everybody who does not accept them is an unfortunate fact for other people that he rightfully does not care about. He tries to spread his jolly family all over because he wants people to be happy and not suffer anymore.

[Koumei]

Yeah, there was an AI Revolution.
That's why AI is outlawed in the Imperium of Man. Even Robots are.
The closest you get to these are the Cyborg-Slaves.

That's why they have servitors. Now obviously, GW said "We're going to have freakish cyborg slaves" and then worked backwards from there, going "Okay, how do we justify this? I know, AIs are banned!" and then "Why are they banned? Oh! AI revolution!" and the machine spirit thing where your gun literally has a personality and memory and your tank can drive itself are just handwaved or something.

Pretty sure Eldar is a Gaelic dialect, firstly because elves are always from that vague area (or the expy of it), secondly because a lot of their other words (even "Kaela Mensha") sound like that, and thirdly because I'm pretty sure I've spoken to an Irishman who identified as "Gaelic" and while we didn't speak about corn/Khorne/Korn, there was that aw -> ae thing going on. Normally I'd guess Welsh, but they don't have any planets that begin with three Ls.

[Stahlseele]

Well, i have no idea wether or not the MachineSpirit has actual Rules in the Table-Top.
In the Novels, it's talked about, but doesn't do anything at all, as far as i remember.
In the Computer-Games, there was one ability of certain Tanks that made them go berserk and took them out of your control for a certain time.

[Koumei]

In the tabletop game, the Land Raider has the Power of the Machine Spirit as a rule: any turn, you can fire one weapon more than normal, and at a different target. Additionally, if you're Stunned (can't move or shoot), it moves anyway, zooming up at full speed.

And I just checked with an English friend who says that although the basic language sounds/looks Gaelic, he can't think of any specific dialects that do the Khorne -> Khaine thing. And wishes to remind us that they don't have to be a racist portrayal of a British group: they're space-Japanese (magic katanas that can chop tanks in half, shuriken guns, everyone is a ninja master, all armour and vehicles are sleek lightweight things).

[Stahlseele]

@Machine Spirit:
Yeah, that's how it works in the computer game too, so they did a 1:1 translation then it seems.

Hmm . . Wapanese Space Elves . . doesn't make it better, does it? <.<;,

[Ted the Flayer]

And if movies have taught me anything, it taught me that white people are better at being japanese than the japanese are.

[RadiantPhoenix]

For those of you wondering about the Khaine-Khorne thing:

If you cut the symbol of Khorne in half down the middle, then glue the halves to the sides of an Eldar helmet, you get approximately the Avatar's head.

Also, it's summoned by sacrificing an Eldar psyker, just like 'normal' demons. (Every Eldar is a psyker)

[Stahlseele]

Yeah, and that was way more pronounced way back then . .

[Red_Rob]

You are not even in the right era. The Age of Strife is the era where setting psykers on fire is normal, and the only reason that might not happen is because your local feudal warlord thinks you are a valuable asset against all the other feudal warlords everywhere. Or you yourself have used your psyker powers to become a feudal warlord, likely because you kept exploding people who tried to set you on fire with your psyker mind powers until there was a void in local management that you stepped in to fill.

No, the Age of Strife was the age where worlds that purged and killed psykers survived, and worlds that trained and encouraged their psykers to experiment with their powers died screaming. Firstly, this means that only worlds that mercilessly culled their psyker population of the weaker members are left to decide what should be the policy moving forwards. Secondly, if you are saying that later in the timeline you can suddenly train all psykers without having the weak ones attract Warp Entities like moths to a flame regardless of what you teach them, you need to show some evidence that this change happened and Warp Entities are no longer a big threat. Because as far as I can tell the default position is that weak psykers must be rounded up like cattle and exterminated or they will fall prey to psychic domination from the Warp.

2) The Emperor, after thousands of years of doing shit, finally gets around to deciding to pass an official ruling on the psyker issue. Not because it's an issue threatening to tear apart his empire, but because Magnus the Red has crossed some questionable boundaries and some of the chapters have started using Librarians, and that is making some of the other chapters uncomfortable. His decision is that "we won't kill them, but I want to carefully observe them and minimize our usage of them. Also, Magnus, I know what you're dabbling in, and cut that shit out or I'll fucking kill you." Seriously, the primary concern of the Emperor isn't psykers in the population at large being corrupted by the warp. It's Magnus, a primarch, an insanely powerful psyker, and Space Marine Librarians, who are also powerful psykers.

The Emperor did reject the idea of killing weak psykers

Really? I don't get that from the decree given by the Emperor at the time. I see the discussion as being almost entirely about whether the psykers that can control their power should be allowed to work in the Imperium. There is no discussion of weak psykers, and definitely no mention of "stopping the killing of thousands of humans" which you would think would be fairly important to spell out. Instead he seems much more focussed on whether Librarians can resist the pull of Chaos when experimenting with their powers, which isn't the same thing at all. Here's the full quote:

I am not blind to the needs of the Imperium, but nor am I blind to the realities of the hearts of men. I hear men speak of knowledge and power as though they are abstract concepts to be employed as simply as a sword or gun.
They are not. Power is a living force, and the danger with power is obsession. A man who attains a measure of power will find it comes to dominate his life until all he can think of is the acquisition of more. Nearly all men can stand adversity, but few can stand the ultimate test of character, that of wielding power without succumbing to its darker temptations.

Peering into the darkness to gain knowledge of the Warp is fraught with peril, for it is an inconstant place of shifting reality, capricious lies and untruths. The seeker after truth must have a care he is not deceived, for false knowledge is far more dangerous than ignorance. All men wish to possess knowledge, but few are willing to pay the price. Always men will seek to take the short cut, the quick route to power, and it is a man’s own mind, not his enemy or foe, that will lure him to evil ways.
True knowledge is gained only after the acquisition of wisdom. Without wisdom, a powerful person does not become more powerful, he becomes reckless. His power will turn on him and eventually destroy all he has built.

I have walked paths no man can know and faced the unnameable creatures of the Warp. I understand all too well the secrets and dangers that lurk in its hidden darkness. Such things are not for lesser minds to know; no matter how powerful or knowledgeable they believe themselves to be. The secrets I have shared serve as warnings, not enticements to explore further. Only death and damnation await those who pry too deeply into secrets not meant for mortals.

I see now I have allowed my sons to delve too profoundly into matters I should never have permitted them to know even existed. Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light.

Note the distinct lack of "Yo, stop murdering people". The Council of Nikkaea was about Gays Librarians in the military. The continued killing of weak psykers was not even under discussion, it was so obvious it needed to continue in order to keep humanity safe.

[Wrathzog]

Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light.

Is this like a quote from the bible which may have been translated, re-translated, and then re-re-translated into gaining new meanings and implications?

[JigokuBosatsu]

Maybe the Federation could create a new god if they really worked at it. I don't know. It would probably take a long time and there is no assurance that their God will be any nicer than the Chaos Gods.

They already did, and they didn't have to work at it. He's maybe a bigger douche than the Fab Four- depending on whether you're going with the canon of the show, or the books "written" by the actor who played him.

[Avoraciopoctules]

If this scenario happened when Q is playing at Starfleet Admiral, things would get hilarious fast.

[JigokuBosatsu]

"Oh look, it's Grand Inquisitor Microbrain. I love your hat." (Inquisitor turns into a plate of kafta kebab.)

[Winnah]

Khaine/Khorne

Khaine is also believed to have been assaulted, defeated, and dominated by Slaanesh sometime after Slaanesh's awakening in the 29th millennium (Imperial Calendar). Following this, Khorne, Chaos God of war, battled Slaanesh for Khaine, rightly claiming the Eldar deity as his property. During their struggle, Khaine was driven into the material world, where he shattered into a thousand pieces. The dread Avatars of Khaine are the mere splinters of the ancient war god that can be called upon by a sacrifice of an Exarch who is chosen to be the Young King who are then absorbed by the essence, thus becoming the Avatar of Khaine wielding the might of the War God himself.

Maybe it's a metaphor or something. The changing nature of the deity once humanity became a more dominant force in the galaxy. But this description depicts the two Gods as different entities. One a god of Order, the other a god of Chaos.

Isha may actually be another aspect of Nurgle, and actually not trapped in a birdcage somewhere in Nurgle's palace. Who knows?

Of course, this is not explicitly spelled out anywhere in 40k material, at least not that I know of. The only direct reference I know of comes from WH fantasy, and then only the depiction of Khorne as Khaine by elves.

[DSMatticus]

No, the Age of Strife was the age where worlds that purged and killed psykers survived, and worlds that trained and encouraged their psykers to experiment with their powers died screaming. Firstly, this means that only worlds that mercilessly culled their psyker population of the weaker members are left to decide what should be the policy moving forwards. Secondly, if you are saying that later in the timeline you can suddenly train all psykers without having the weak ones attract Warp Entities like moths to a flame regardless of what you teach them, you need to show some evidence that this change happened and Warp Entities are no longer a big threat.

No, again, you are wrong in a small but very important way. The Age of Strife is a five to seven thousand year period that begins roughly with the collapse of mankind's empire, and ends roughly with the Great Crusades and the creation of the Imperium. The collapse of mankind due to warp instability happens in the late Age of Technology and a very tiny sliver of the Age of Strife. The vast majority of the action in the Age of Strife is feudal warlords beating the shit out of eachother. Also, some orks. The bit where society implodes (mostly due to the sudden denial of FTL) has already happened.

Psykers were a new thing in the Age of Technology. That, unchecked, they would spread daemons all up in everything was a fact people did not actually know and could not prepare for or even try to prevent. But there's also the fact that in the early Age of Strife, Slaanesh is born and the Eldar die and the warp canonically quiets the fuck down (it's the only reason the Emperor can leave the Sol System to reunite humanity - human space before this is one giant warp storm). So we totally know that warp instability is less of a thing post-Slaanesh, and presumably that influences the rate of chaos corruption because warp storms and the horrible entities associated with them are no longer everywhere.

Because as far as I can tell the default position is that weak psykers must be rounded up like cattle and exterminated or they will fall prey to psychic domination from the Warp.

I'm going to point out that the suggestion to sacrifice psykers to the Astronomican was made while the Emperor was alive (because it could help keep it running without tying down the Emperor), and he hated the idea of throwing psykers into a sacrifical furnace to power the Imperium's FTL navigation. He did it despite that, because he thought it would be an okay temporary measure until he had cracked the secrets of the webway and made a better FTL system. Then he died. Oh, hilarity.

There is no discussion of weak psykers, and definitely no mention of "stopping the killing of thousands of humans" which you would think would be fairly important to spell out.

It would be, if it were actually happening, and the point is that it's not clear it's happening. "Let's stop doing that thing we're not doing" would be a really weird thing to say. But let's quote a wiki:

Firstly, as the Great Crusade reached further from the light of Terra, stranger and stranger foes were faced. Many times the Legiones Astartes or the Imperial Army would discover a new world, only to be met by hostile action from beings who wielded mysterious, sorcerous-seeming powers; powers that resembled those employed by the Thousand Sons and the legion Librarians.

Think about that. When the Emperor sets out on his Great Crusade to reunite humanity, he and his psykers don't even run into chaos corrupted sorcerers of any note until they start hitting the edge of Imperium space. Then they look at their Librarians and say, "wow, maybe these two could be related!" Psykers going chaosy and murdering people with warp powers is such a non-event that they have been using the same warp powers as chaos sorcerers to murder things for most of the Great Crusade and not realizing it. Finding chaos sorcerers who can do the same thing the Librarians can genuinely shocks and unsettles the Imperium's leaders.

The idea that the pre-Heresy Imperium is constantly hunting and purging psykers because they will lead to chaos insurgencies is laughable, because they don't even know what a chaos insurgency looks like. Psyker hate is genuinely just superstitution and legend held over from the end of the Age of Technology, which is the period during which Slaanesh is being born and the warp is more powerful and dangerous than it ever has been before. Now, the post-Heresy Imperium does know what a chaos insurgency looks like. Because they have them much more regularly.

Do you agree with the following statement: The post-Heresy Imperium is more authoritarian, more pro-psyker massacre, and more prone to internal chaos problems?

Really, the sanest reading of the 40k canon is that the Imperium is in the middle of gestating the next chaos god (though, I don't think I can give the authors enough credit to intend that). And while I'm ranting about fan interpretations: the Tyranid are drawn to warp disturbances and suppress the warp in their vicinity, and they have an FTL system that functions by pulling itself towards massive objects, like planets, stars, and galactic centers. Conclusion: they are galactic artillery engineered by a nearby warp sensitive race in order to exterminate (and insulate them from in the process) other warp sensitive races because of shit like the Fall of the Eldar, which hurls out warp storms.

[Koumei]

Really, the sanest reading of the 40k canon is that the Imperium is in the middle of gestating the next chaos god (though, I don't think I can give the authors enough credit to intend that).

Actually, I'm pretty sure they mentioned that as a possibility in several books. I mean, there's a whole philosophy dedicated to "If we shank the Emperor on his throne, He becomes a new actual god and bitchslaps the Chaos Gods so hard their creators feel it" within the Inquisition (it's one of the many things they fight about internally), and while some oppose that on grounds of "No, you're wrong, he'll just die", others oppose it on grounds of "He'll become a new Chaos god and we're all fucked" and "He's already becoming a god with our faith and psykers boosting him - do not interrupt the process!"

So they're aware of the "Humanity, through its fight against Chaos, is potentially making the next Chaos God" angle, but they're specifically thinking of that CG being the Emperor, not just "another great power forms from their madness" and it's all one debate in-setting with no answer ever forthcoming.

[DSMatticus]

Yeah, I should have spoken a little more carefully there. I know "Emperor as a new god" has been tossed around, I was just never sure where to draw the line between canon and fan speculation on that, especially since that line is moving.

[Stahlseele]

Technically, chaos has to win.
War, never ending = Khorne Wins.
Change through war never ending = Tzeentch wins.
Decay because of war never ending = Nurgle wins.
The onyl one who can't really win in this universe is Slaanesh, because at birth he killed the only pan galactic orgy around and made sure people are afraid to have too much fun . .

[Koumei]

Nah, excessive war = Slaanesh.

[koz]

DSM, that theory about the Tyranids is nothing short of inspired. I admit it's unlikely that this is what the canon authors intended, but it's still awesome.

[Stahlseele]

*nods*
first time someone looked at them like that O.o