Pathfinder Is Still Bad

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:08 pm

Voss wrote: I don't doubt that they've over-tapped their base with two separate kickstarters. Plus at least a chunk of their base seriously believes MMOs ruined tabletop games forever, so an MMO isn't going to appeal to them anyway.

Plus, with the original Kickstarter nobody knew anything about what the game would eventually look like, whereas now they've pretty much solidified their ideas around the equivalent of "EVE Online with swords and spells" (which is likely to turn some people off).

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:43 pm

Voss wrote:
ishy wrote:They won't start production on pf2 till pf1 stops selling as well as it currently is.
Production, no. Work, yes. I'd be quite surprised if they aren't working on it already.

Do you think they would wait long enough to be able to say that they've gone longer than 3.5 before a new revision?

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:12 pm

Only if they thought it would be really beneficial. I'm not sure that proving they are somehow better than WotC is really a thing they have to establish any more. The player base split, and there really isn't any going back anymore.

I don't go to their forums often (and haven't at all in about 5 months), but I know there have been calls from some of their players to go ahead and do it already. Enough of them know where the issues are (like the monk bullshit) to know that things need real fixes, but also know that there really isn't any other game out there they will be happy with as players. 4e is what drove them to PF anyway, and 5e is staggering around like a drunken sailor, so...

So they are literally stuck waiting for paizo to do a PF2.0 or 1.5 or whatever. And some of them do the PF Society stuff, so they are stuck with 'official rules or nothing.'

codeGlaze · Post by **codeGlaze** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:27 pm

Voss wrote:Only if they thought it would be really beneficial. I'm not sure that proving they are somehow better than WotC is really a thing they have to establish any more. The player base split, and there really isn't any going back anymore.

I don't go to their forums often (and haven't at all in about 5 months), but I know there have been calls from some of their players to go ahead and do it already. Enough of them know where the issues are (like the monk bullshit) to know that things need real fixes, but also know that there really isn't any other game out there they will be happy with as players. 4e is what drove them to PF anyway, and 5e is staggering around like a drunken sailor, so...

So they are literally stuck waiting for paizo to do a PF2.0 or 1.5 or whatever. And some of them do the PF Society stuff, so they are stuck with 'official rules or nothing.'

Those are pretty much my thoughts, too. Although I think they're slowly working their rules system toward a broad change. So when the big change comes they can allow backwards compatibility with some of the stuff released toward the end of PF1.0 ... or something. xD

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:29 pm

If they want the game to be worth something, I really hope they learned the lesson about backwards compatibility that should be blatantly obvious by now: fuck no, it cripples the system.

codeGlaze · Post by **codeGlaze** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:49 pm

Voss wrote:If they want the game to be worth something, I really hope they learned the lesson about backwards compatibility that should be blatantly obvious by now: fuck no, it cripples the system.

I agree, but it's a schtick.
We'll see, I guess. xD

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:56 am

Voss wrote:
ishy wrote:They won't start production on pf2 till pf1 stops selling as well as it currently is.
Production, no. Work, yes. I'd be quite surprised if they aren't working on it already.

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear.

James Jacobs -Thu, Nov 29, 2012 wrote:Nope. We're not working on a 2nd edition of the game. Launching a 2nd edition of a game when the 1st edition is still increasing in popularity is not a good idea. Maybe once we get the idea that Pathfinder's reached a sales plateau we'll start working on a 2nd edition, but until we get the feeling that we're reaching or have reached such a sales plateau... we're not going to devote much resources in house to fixing something that our sales numbers are telling us isn't, overall, broken.

MfA · Post by **MfA** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:36 pm

D&D editions made sweeping changes in alternate/additional rulesets in previous editions ... Pathfinder could/should simply do it's own version of Unearthed Arcana.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:48 pm

Let's say I'm dipping into a class with good Will saves for early entry to Master of Shrouds. This is a 3.5 game with access to some PFSRD stuff. Are there any particularly compelling options in Pathfinder?

I'm a rebuking cleric necromancer, and I'll have to retrain my 2 feats for access to the prestige class. Dread necromancer might be an option for the level dip later, but it is not currently allowed. If it makes any difference, I'll be able to swap out a cleric level when I hit level 4, so I'll only spend one level missing out on better spells before shadow summoning becomes available.

MisterDee · Post by **MisterDee** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:22 pm

For a single level, Inquisitor might work - there's nothing epic in there but the judgment ability is fairly flexible, there are a few archetypes that replace the crappier level-1 abilities, and maybe you can find an inquisition that's better than a mere domain power.

(Zeal is a nice trick, and Justice would probably trigger often if you're playing a minion-master type and if you fight with your minions. Or if you're more the stay-back type, Black Powder may be worth a look)

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:01 am

I'd probably go with a level of Crossblooded sorcerer, for the ability to cherry-pick two bloodline arcanas (bloodlines arcana?). Fey is pretty good (+2 to compulsion DCs, a no-save touch attack that nauseates an opponent for 1 round) and so is Serpentine (you can affect animals, magic beasts and monstrous humanoids with spells mind-affecting or language-dependent spells).

LeadPal · Post by **LeadPal** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:01 am

If your physical ability scores aren't too hot, synthesist summoner is pretty damn awesome. Fusing with a 1st level bipedal eidolon resets your scores to 16 str, 12 dex, 13 con, then adds 11 hp, +1 BAB, +2 natural armour, and 3 points of evolutions, with some pretty good options like +2 con (2 points), +8 racial to any skill (1 point), or +2 more natural armour (1 point). Or even Extra Limbs (2 points), for no reason except to play a four-armed death god.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:00 am

Well, then, can anyone think of good options for a grumpy, sarcastic historian wizard?

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:02 pm

Korgan0 wrote:Well, then, can anyone think of good options for a grumpy, sarcastic historian wizard?

Archaeologist Bard? Boosts Will, gives you bullshit luck bonuses and bard stuff.

Crossblood Sorc with Sage and something else (Fey, Serpentine, Imperious if you're Human) could work, too. INT for your Sorc spells and the other stuff from Arcane.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:34 pm

Korgan0 wrote:Well, then, can anyone think of good options for a grumpy, sarcastic historian wizard?

How do you feel about illusions?

EDIT: if you can use Knowledge skills to justify worship of an obscure god, http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestig ... llusionist

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:36 am

There's a bit of debate about the Mythic rules on the playtest forum in Paizo here: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p7vl?Missing-the-Myth

I'm trying not to pull my hair out with this Kerian fellow.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:42 am

I was mostly joking, since Avoraciopoctules is looking for stuff for his character in Ancient History's play by post, and I thought I might as well put myself out there. Thanks, in any case!

edit: Illusions aren't very "him," but maybe if he has some kind of traumatic experience that fractures him into little bits he could take up Veiled Illusionist as a way of coping with it, or something.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:49 pm

ishy wrote:
Voss wrote:
ishy wrote:They won't start production on pf2 till pf1 stops selling as well as it currently is.
Production, no. Work, yes. I'd be quite surprised if they aren't working on it already.
Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear.
James Jacobs -Thu, Nov 29, 2012 wrote:Nope. We're not working on a 2nd edition of the game. Launching a 2nd edition of a game when the 1st edition is still increasing in popularity is not a good idea. Maybe once we get the idea that Pathfinder's reached a sales plateau we'll start working on a 2nd edition, but until we get the feeling that we're reaching or have reached such a sales plateau... we're not going to devote much resources in house to fixing something that our sales numbers are telling us isn't, overall, broken.

Yeah, that's what is know as 'a lie,' or alternately 'marketing.' A particularly transparent lie that every big gaming house does at around this time: 'Who, us? Working on 4th edition? No, no. But we have a big announcement for GenCon this year.' - WotC, 2007.

Basically, a company can't start work after sales go flat.* Well, they can, but it is blatantly stupid. It is the sort of thing that causes fly by night companies with no business sense to go bust. Its especially true when you've got big things happening in the industry happening. The flagship title of fantasy RPGs is either going to revive or go completely bust in a year (maybe two). That isn't something you sit out on.

Plus, look at the stuff they're doing lately. Poking at the monk, and other old rules issues. Publishing traditional 'end of line' books. I mean, really? An NPC book and an equipment book? Thats crap you put out because you don't have real product. And if you don't have real product, you're working on something you aren't talking about. In the RPG 'industry' these days, thats an edition change.

*plus I have a lot of trouble believing their sales haven't plateaued already. Even if you want to play, you have to pretty much already know about it, and probably you have a book or pdf already. Or some of your group does. Or access to the 'net. They can limp along for the moment, because there is essentially zero competition right now, but that isn't going to last.

MfA wrote:D&D editions made sweeping changes in alternate/additional rulesets in previous editions ... Pathfinder could/should simply do it's own version of Unearthed Arcana.

They already did that. The Advanced Class Guide was essentially exactly that. They just did it _really_ early. And then they did a multi-volume work out of it with the magic one and guns/asian one. And then the Master Race handbook.

Previn · Post by **Previn** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:05 pm

Voss wrote:*plus I have a lot of trouble believing their sales haven't plateaued already. Even if you want to play, you have to pretty much already know about it, and probably you have a book or pdf already. Or some of your group does. Or access to the 'net. They can limp along for the moment, because there is essentially zero competition right now, but that isn't going to last.

I suspect right now their sales are growing. The 4e fan base is crumbling, 5e isn't out and doesn't seem to be making anyone happy, and the only big product out there to turn to is Pathfinder. They might have some off hand plans, but I doubt they'll really start making anything concrete until after 5e launches and they can see what that's doing to their player base.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:38 am

Previn wrote:
Voss wrote:*plus I have a lot of trouble believing their sales haven't plateaued already. Even if you want to play, you have to pretty much already know about it, and probably you have a book or pdf already. Or some of your group does. Or access to the 'net. They can limp along for the moment, because there is essentially zero competition right now, but that isn't going to last.
I suspect right now their sales are growing. The 4e fan base is crumbling, 5e isn't out and doesn't seem to be making anyone happy, and the only big product out there to turn to is Pathfinder. They might have some off hand plans, but I doubt they'll really start making anything concrete until after 5e launches and they can see what that's doing to their player base.

Again, that is bizarrely bad planning. The best they can hope for is a short-term drop in their sales, because everything else aside, it will have the D&D label on it, and there will be at least a short sales rush (1-3 months) before people really take a look at it to decide if it is bad.

If it isn't outright horrible (or if it is horrible in a way people will swallow because it says D&D on it), it could be a long period of depressed sales for paizo. Scratching their butts while they wait to find out what will happen to their sales after the fact just isn't a rational strategy.

Previn · Post by **Previn** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:54 am

Voss wrote:Again, that is bizarrely bad planning. The best they can hope for is a short-term drop in their sales, because everything else aside, it will have the D&D label on it, and there will be at least a short sales rush (1-3 months) before people really take a look at it to decide if it is bad.

Making up a new edition of a game, or an entirely new game as a profesional company isn't a quick, easy or cheap process. They may have some ideas, but they probably won't divert much to making those ideas into a product so long as Pathfinder is continuing to grow (as I said before). This isn't sitting around scrathcing their butts, it's called not jumping from project to project like a chicken with it's head cutt off because you're in panic mode, al la 'Mearls Mode' as displayed with 4e/4.5/5e and anything else he's ever worked on.

They can't afford to split or disenfranchise their player base like WotC did with 4e, and if Pathfinder is still growing as a brand and product, gambling on a new revision or version makes little sense unless they suspect that 5e will be a run away success, which I don't think anyone, Mearls included, thinks at this point.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:41 am

Previn wrote:
Voss wrote:Again, that is bizarrely bad planning. The best they can hope for is a short-term drop in their sales, because everything else aside, it will have the D&D label on it, and there will be at least a short sales rush (1-3 months) before people really take a look at it to decide if it is bad.
Making up a new edition of a game, or an entirely new game as a profesional company isn't a quick, easy or cheap process. They may have some ideas, but they probably won't divert much to making those ideas into a product so long as Pathfinder is continuing to grow (as I said before). This isn't sitting around scrathcing their butts, it's called not jumping from project to project like a chicken with it's head cutt off because you're in panic mode, al la 'Mearls Mode' as displayed with 4e/4.5/5e and anything else he's ever worked on.

They can't afford to split or disenfranchise their player base like WotC did with 4e, and if Pathfinder is still growing as a brand and product, gambling on a new revision or version makes little sense unless they suspect that 5e will be a run away success, which I don't think anyone, Mearls included, thinks at this point.

It isn't a gamble when the odds are in your favor and you make that gamble for its chance to be decisive. And making the bare bones of a game, at least, is not difficult. It is time consuming, especially if you have other obligations, but it is not difficult. Of all people, someone who spends time on a site that develops full games semi-regularly should know that.

Not developing new ideas is how you stagnate. Waiting to develop means you can't capitalize on sudden shifts in fortune. If, for instance, 5e completely flops and they don't have something to move into that hole, then they've given up a huge amount of potential market share. Furthermore, if they don't have at least concept and design ideas to kick around, the eventual product will miss its chance to make an impact or be rushed out the door and suck ass like 5e is shaping up to.

What you're suggesting, for a company that exists to design and sell gaming product, is "scratching your ass".

They've fast-tracked the fuck out of their product timeline and are already making garbage time supplements. One would hope this is because they're designing their next killer app, since they're three years into a contemporary product life and this is a time of great upheaval in TTRPGs. Remember: 3.5 came out four years after 3.0 and 4e came out four years after 3.5. No contemporary TTRPG has or can have the long tail AD&D 2e had, since that business model was a futile attempt to bail out a sinking ship.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:56 am

Korgan0 wrote:I was mostly joking, since Avoraciopoctules is looking for stuff for his character in Ancient History's play by post, and I thought I might as well put myself out there. Thanks, in any case!

Korgan0, I dug up some spells you might find interesting.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spell ... ing-disarm
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spell ... cret-doors
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/vanish
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-pit

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:09 pm

Yep, 1st edition is the culmination of every patch to OD&D, which was three years of published development patches and then four years of writing.

Work on 2nd edition D&D was under way by 1985, four years before release, though it was scrapped and restarted at least once when Gygax left later that year.

Work on 3e was already happening when TSR went broke, but that was scrapped to start over in 1997, three years before release. 3.5 was a quick and messy patch with a heap of copy-and-paste and still clearly showed in their development line for well over a year.

Formative work on 4e is at least from 2004, so four years in development. Essentials is a quick rewrite of a couple of PHB class mechanics and a couple numbers on the monsters, and it also took well over a year of dodgy publication schedules as everyone worked on it beforehand.

Pathfinder is a line-by-line rewrite of 3e to include a handful of house rules, and it took over a year to put together. There's a lot of little changes, but it's basically the same game, with all the same old problems and a few new ones.

5e work started immediately after 4ssentials hit, which was likely a test run of the first ideas for 5th edition (if they could turn 4e's ideas around at all, or just had to scrap it and start over). It will be four years in the making post-4.5, and they can't even push modules for 4e in the meantime, no budget for art and cartography and stuff. Reprints? Scanning and OCR is slow, but the speed they're going it's only one person, and 3.5 already had the OEFs.

So Pathfinder2 will either be "even more 3rd edition D&D, with no real fixes for anything, because you totally want to buy the same core books for a fourth time" and they can push it out in a bit over a year while not publishing anything but poorly edited freelance modules and compendiums ... or they want to do something big, like incorporate all the rules they've added in the last three years, and that will take at least three years. That latter sort of schedule will not wait on a lull in sales to begin, it'll be happening already.

I'd pick the long cycle, no matter what they say in public. It just makes sense to fold all their patches back into a new core system, split that giant hardback into a DMG and PHB, and then republish the same old rules updated for the new edition with new art. There's only so much original work you can add to D&D before you have to reboot anyway, why not justify the reboot with a rewrite?

Antariuk · Post by **Antariuk** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:34 pm

tussock wrote: ... or they want to do something big, like incorporate all the rules they've added in the last three years, and that will take at least three years. That latter sort of schedule will not wait on a lull in sales to begin, it'll be happening already.

Aren't they already planning for something along those lines? Ultimate Campaign reads like that.