What's with fluff/gameplay badassery dissonance in TTRPGs?

[Foxwarrior]

I recently encountered a problem that I sort of wish I was willing to solve with an NPC-only tag: a caster can spend several turns to create an impressive combat effect, but they're stopped by being knocked unconscious or otherwise disabled. Tactically, it produces a situation with a natural time limit and an important location, which makes things more interesting. However, when a PC uses it, it's socially a mess: If the DM focuses fire on any PC who tries to cast one of those spells, and usually knocks them out, the player doesn't get to play with their cool toys; if the DM lets them play with their cool toys, then their cool toys work too well and all the other players feel useless.

[Ancient History]

However, there will also come a point where your players want their characters to breath fire

why? they cant point a stick and do the same thing?

are the player going to hold their breathe and stamp their feet during their tantrum until they get it?

a dragon also has wings, and some players will want them, while other will just want the ability to fly.

there are such hard-limits as times to preserved "balance" between DM side and player side.

A game designer cannot enforce the rules of the game at the table. Mister Cavern, for that matter, is not the autocratic lord of the table. Roleplaying is a cooperative game, where everybody does their part, and the MC's job is to referee, set the scene, play the monsters, to challenge and reward and punish the player characters for their actions in the game. The MC is not there to tell the players what their characters do or not do; there is a world of difference between "you are not strong enough to bend the bar" and "you are not a fighter, so you cannot bend the bar."

If something is feasible within the context of a game, and the PC works hard at it and finds a way that should work, then there is no reason to deny them their goals. The MC doesn't make it easy, but neither do they need to make it impossible. A character in D&D deciding to breath fire like a dragon is no different from a character in Shadowrun that wants to run for Governor of Seattle. While the goals may be fraught with difficulty and practically impossible by normal methods, that doesn't mean they are literally impossible for dedicated characters - a D&D character might resort to a quest for powerful magic, a Shadowrun character may strike a bunch of shady deals with politicians, criminals, and megacorps - in either case, the goal should be at least theoretically achievable, they should have a fair shot of making it happen.

Because if not, if you're stuck in a game with finite choices and no room for thinking and coloring outside the lines a little, to strive for something cool and have fun doing it - then what the fuck is the point?

there is 1 DM and X players. if the DM tools were all in the lap of the players, the DM couldnt present a challenge for the players because 1 < X imaginations.

Bullshit. Mister Cavern can have a small barbarian horde arise over the horizon at a moment's notice; the player character can play a barbarian. One does not, and should not, preclude the other.

I'm playing a D&D game right now, on the Den, with six people. 6 > 1. And the players aren't running roughshod over me, and we're all having a blast. I don't tell them what to do, and pretty much anything goes, and so far it works and everyone is having fun, because we have seven imaginations driving this thing and I'm mainly refereeing and keeping the momentum up. That is a good way to play it. It doesn't have to be the PCs vs. the MC.

<Bizarre DBZ/anime rant>

Avatar, DBZ, Naruto, and Bleach d20 systems, while not having license to use that IP, just didnt catch on mainstream.

That literally has nothing to do with fucking anything anyone is saying, and you should feel bad about it.

[shadzar]

nor does a game designer have to babysit some player or group thereof and try to include their perfect game in the product they are trying to sell for everyone. go make your own fantasy heartbreaker if the designer doesnt provide what you want, because enough people think it doesnt belong.

you CAN create anything, the problem is it wont work for many people, and you need to make it first for the people you play with and tailor it to them.

when your doctor takes you off medication for when you learn Mister Cavern isnt a real person, then try coming back with a real argument n that respect.

as you call it the "dbz/anime" stuff has everything to do in regards to why fluff says one thing and then mechanics act in a different way. this thread is just an offshoot of "why cant fighters have nice things", because most times it is the fighter character where the awesome fluff is mentioned and then gets nothing that works like Aang, Goku, Naruto, etc can do.

i would be interested to "see" this game you are palying here to see if it is what i would consider a real game, or more a beer and pretzels nonsense, or just an extension of storytelling like most PBeM or PbP games ever were. Also to see if you gave the players access to ALL the DM tools in that game.

[Ancient History]

nor does a game designer have to babysit some player or group thereof and try to include their perfect game in the product they are trying to sell for everyone. go make your own fantasy heartbreaker if the designer doesnt provide what you want, because enough people think it doesnt belong.

Game designers are responsible for concept, setting, and system. That is all they sell you. Everything else is what Mister Cavern and the players bring to the table.

as you call it the "dbz/anime" stuff has everything to do in regards to why fluff says one thing and then mechanics act in a different way. this thread is just an offshoot of "why cant fighters have nice things", because most times it is the fighter character where the awesome fluff is mentioned and then gets nothing that works like Aang, Goku, Naruto, etc can do.

Different subject entirely. In the DBZ universe, anybody can go from punching people to being an energy-spewing badass. That is internally consistent. In D&D you can also try to do this, the rules just suck if you try to be Goku. That's a failure of the system. If the designer had built a DBZ Supersaiyan class for NPCs only, then it would be relevant to this thread.

i would be interested to "see" this game you are palying here to see if it is what i would consider a real game, or more a beer and pretzels nonsense, or just an extension of storytelling like most PBeM or PbP games ever were. Also to see if you gave the players access to ALL the DM tools in that game.

Your opinion of what constitutes a real game is meaningless to me, as with all things RPG you are very likely wrong. But read it, bitch:

Crypts of Chaos OOC: http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=53485
Crypts of Chaos IC: http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=53489

[JigokuBosatsu]

This is the best campaign.

Pretty much.

The reason this is pertinent to the thread, is that AH has provided us a classic dungeon crawl in a weird steampunk environment. As he said, he provides challenges and rewards and maintains the pacing. He's pretty liberal with handing out both, and I don't think any of us are particularly interested in "winning".... so the badass factor has been creeping up because it makes things interesting and we're not abusing it. Strictly speaking for myself, my character has functionally become a murderous robot with an artifact weapon, and I fully expect to die horribly before the end of the campaign. That will serve the story, and I think the gap between story and game is what this thread is all about. In the gaming medium, why have a character with a planet-destroying attack if the system doesn't support it?

[shadzar]

nor does a game designer have to babysit some player or group thereof and try to include their perfect game in the product they are trying to sell for everyone. go make your own fantasy heartbreaker if the designer doesnt provide what you want, because enough people think it doesnt belong.

Game designers are responsible for concept, setting, and system. That is all they sell you. Everything else is what Mister Cavern and the players bring to the table.

as you call it the "dbz/anime" stuff has everything to do in regards to why fluff says one thing and then mechanics act in a different way. this thread is just an offshoot of "why cant fighters have nice things", because most times it is the fighter character where the awesome fluff is mentioned and then gets nothing that works like Aang, Goku, Naruto, etc can do.

Different subject entirely. In the DBZ universe, anybody can go from punching people to being an energy-spewing badass. That is internally consistent. In D&D you can also try to do this, the rules just suck if you try to be Goku. That's a failure of the system. If the designer had built a DBZ Supersaiyan class for NPCs only, then it would be relevant to this thread.

i would be interested to "see" this game you are palying here to see if it is what i would consider a real game, or more a beer and pretzels nonsense, or just an extension of storytelling like most PBeM or PbP games ever were. Also to see if you gave the players access to ALL the DM tools in that game.

Your opinion of what constitutes a real game is meaningless to me, as with all things RPG you are very likely wrong. But read it, bitch:

Crypts of Chaos OOC: http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=53485
Crypts of Chaos IC: http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=53489

1. Mister Cavern doesnt exist, and is the sole creation of the DM. also a designer does NOT have responsibility over setting. this is what happens at the table. yes they made 40000 settings under TSR for D&D, but it did NOT affect the core of the game (save for Monstrous Manual jsut hunting and pecking for monsters to fill the pages).

a designer is responsible for system which is core mechanics and fluff (reason behind the mechanics expressed in colorful metaphors).

2. no, DBZ universe does NOT have ANYONE can become Goku, or even be OVER 9000!!!!!!!!! DBZ universe is slanted and inconsistent. the pig farmer would NEVER be able to achieve even the levels Bidel reached to be able to fly after Gohan taught her. thus the reason Satan/Hercule was unable to do anything like it. some people just CANT do those things not even with Koran or Kami or Dendi or the Elder Kai's help. use the Dragonballs.. and well you know what happens then, and they wouldnt be able to grant the increased power level to everyone at the same time. this is why Yasurobi, Yamcha, Puar, etc ceased being Z-fighters when their power levels were greatly eclipsed. this is why this style of thing is proving the mundane just doesnt mix with this. taking D&D for example, you wouldnt get a fighter fashioned from Goku, he would have to be a wizard/rogue and stretching it to fit in 3.x, he would have a shit ton of Su feats. so since DM and players BOTH have access to this, world-destroying (pun intended) power list from so-called "mundane" people it is in a sense balanced as you asked for, but outside of the range where anything but a Z-fighter class could exist.

DBZ the fluff matches the mechanics, but you just cant play a game with it. it literally is 4th edition and its super-powers list, and you play your list of super=powers rather than play the game. spam at-will kamehameha and worry about doing nothing else.

3. oh so Ancient History here at DBZ is the ruler and decider of what is "badwrongfun". funny i thought this place belonged to the "Fence Builder", and HE ordained that each can have fun his own way (thus you have Pf, 3.x, shadowrun threads all coexisting without anyone going into a thread shitting on the system it is about). didnt know you were now the owner of the board and all thoughts and opinions on it.

[JigokuBosatsu]

Yes, Shadzar. AH is the ruler here at DBZ. His power level is exactly 9001. So please stop arguing with him, or he'll send Mr. Cavern after you.

[Josh_Kablack]

That literally has nothing to do with fucking anything anyone is saying, and you should feel bad about it.

Best summation of shadzar yet.

[Koumei]

Also to see if you gave the players access to ALL the DM tools in that game.

That was actually one of the interesting things about the premise: the core books are there for anyone to use anything from. Also, any player can say "I'd like to use book X", at which point everyone (including Mister Cavern) can use it. You'll notice people deciding "I don't think AH will fuck us, let's open up some of the more interesting books to him" as he couldn't just crack open MM2 without a player first using it. By use of the rules set at the table, affecting even Mister Cavern, by Mister Cavern.

Like when a group of grown ups decide to play a game together and don't need one person to be their fuhrer.