Verbs Vs. Nouns

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:15 am

Let me apologize preemptively for the thread spam. I'm relatively certain that this post could and maybe should have gone in one of the 4 other threads on the front page discussing leveling, magic, non-magic, and concept obsolescence. But because there are so many of them I'm not sure where to put this, so I'm making a new thread for it. Here's the basic observation I want to share: in a world with supernatural elements, adventurers need to be able to do things to or with supernatural stuff. However, you have a lot of leeway when it comes to describing how this functions. Specifically, you can put the magic bit in the object or you can put it in the verb Sometimes it will be both, like

Hiro enchanted a flaming sword
Hiro bound a demon
Hiro conjured a portal
Hiro banished a ghost

Compare sentences for mundane actions like

Hiro forged a sword
Hiro went and hired some thugs
Hiro punched an orc

But sometimes, the magic is entirely in one or the other. Sometimes it's just in the verb

Hiro fireblasted an orc
Hiro conjured a sword
Hiro bound a tiger

These are mostly ignorable. People find them cool, but lacking them is not really a balance issue. You could just shoot the orc and train a tiger. But, you can also do the opposite. Choose a mundane-seeming verb and offload the magic into the object.

Hiro punched a ghost
Hiro tamed a dragon
Hiro forged a flaming sword out of Efreeti Steel
King Hiro called up his nation's reserve army of ghosts
Hiro mixes up a lightning flask

I think that for those of us on the Den who occasionally feel the lure of the "mundane," it's because we find those mundane verbs a little sexier. First of all, there's less repetition. Figuring out how to avoid using conjured and enchanted for every single magic verb was a challenge. Second, mundane verbs just tend to be cooler. Who doesn't want to forge things, tame things, punch things, and fix or break stuff? I think that's honestly the core of the male "action hero" fantasy. This means, of course, that I am suggesting that the "mundane" character have game-mechanical abilities that let them produce "magic" effects like a dragon mount, demon ally, or access to another plane. This usually comes up in these conversations before being dismissed as "that's just an artificer" or "just a gadgeteer." But I think it actually is possible to do this in a way that will satisfy a lot of people by watching your verbs.

Magic-users in real world traditions and in fiction already do a lot of this, of course, so much so that there can be serious arguments about who even counts as a wizard or a spellcaster. Shamans gather and apply herbs as part of a healing spell, magic swords are forged out of magic stuff, diviners see the future or other places in the sacred pool, and cabbalists contact otherworldly spirits. Raising the dead, or contacting their spirits, requires a physical journey through some netherworld. Arguably none of those people are spellcasters. They could have some kind of "phlebotinum" that allows them to produce those effects using those tools, but they don't have to. Maybe the wizard actually is just a normal guy who happens to know where the good herbs and sacred pools are, and the melting point of Firesteel, and how to re-wire a planar portal. A lot of existing games have mechanics that can very nearly do this. For instance, if you take the spellcasting pre-requisite off of crafting feats, then crafting in D&D requires nothing more than burning a bunch of money on "magic stuff." You could flavor that anywhere along a spectrum from "the magic comes from within the character and the money is spent on tools to focus and direct his power" to "the money goes to buy magic stuff, which the crafter manipulates in a mundane way without any chanting or focusing at all." The big problem is that the games that can support this also tend to have wide-open highly-customizable magic systems. Shadowrun and D&D, for instance, both have enormous libraries of tradition-agnostic effects on tap. The sheer scope of available effects and power sources precludes any actual description of how these things are accomplished. And in the absence of description, people default to generic verbs like "enchant" and "conjure." And they picture waving hands and muttering in Latin.

If you start with the list of effects on a sheet and then try to add mundanification post facto, it feels like a lame cop-out because it is a lame cop-out. You're not going to convince anyone that the healing came from "sacred herbs" just because your GM houseruled in a material component for cure light wounds. And the fact is, coming up with a satisfying mundane-feeling way to a supernatural effect is difficult to do off the cuff. The answer is, a fantasy heartbreaker game should start with a list of magic stuff and places. You should put a dozen different magic ores and minerals in the Equipment chapterHave a firebrand on the weapon table next to longsword and list its crafting DC. Have a list of powerful herbs and mention the different kinds of potions they can be blended or brewed into. In the "Adventuring" chapter have a list of magic places that can be used to scry, travel to other planes, contact the dead or raise up elementals. I think if you simply present these things as normal parts of the game world rather than segregating them into the "wizard chapter" you could get a lot of traction with a smith/herbalist/animal trainer character who scales into forging souls, brewing resurrection potions and training Nightmares.

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Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:26 am

I'm confused about adjectives

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:33 am

Your wall of text cuts both ways; once the "mundane" guy is producing magical effects via phlebotinum, he is no longer mundane, even if the magical effects are through "mundane" methods. A mundane person can't punch a ghost in the face (although that would be awesome). Mixing a bunch of herbs to make a "magical" effect is still not mundane; a ninja whose smoke bomb makes darkness from the pits of Yomi is still beyond the mundane regardless if he made it with eleven herbs and spices or with actual darkness from the pits of Yomi.

You can have a "mundane" guy doing magical things, but the setting would have to be postmodernist fantasy, where magic itself has become mundane.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:00 am

Josh_Kablack wrote:I'm confused about adjectives

Is your confusion mundane or magical in nature?

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:30 am

Yeah, this is one of those topics where people talk past each other. Oftentimes one party means mundane to mean commonplace within the fictional setting in question while another uses mundane to describe something that is non-magical/explicable by real-life standards, and those are two very different things. That's why so many of us keep talking about mercilessly weeding out a lot of the non-magical character concepts from D&D though--some dude who seriously refuses to interact with wide chunks of the world around him is just kind of weird and ignorant after a while. I don't expect flat earthers to be very good at geology and I expect pilots to have a working knowledge of how lift works, so I'm pretty OK with a setting where the successful demon hunters are all people who made sure to pick up a few ways to maintain abjuration effects during their apprenticeship. Problem is, people still measure the normalcy of everything they encounter by their own experiences, so they don't quite understand on a visceral level how out of place Mr. Melee Machine can be in any given magical setting.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:49 am

That whole list of verbs and nouns was just a further example to me of how completely bullshit mundane is, and how much I would hate to be so crippled as to be one.

Literally everything about mundane verbs and magical nouns was just a perfect example of 4e bullshit monsters that you feel pathetic for beating. Literally everything about magical verbs for mundane nouns was the sort of throw away stuff that looks low level and common place.

Only magical verb and noun sentences are the things I want defining my game.

How the fuck you think those sentences show why people like mundane characters is just one more completely inexplicable thing about why you fucking weirdos like mundane characters in the first place.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:13 am

Whipstitch wrote:Yeah, this is one of those topics where people talk past each other. Oftentimes one party means mundane to mean commonplace within the fictional setting in question while another uses mundane to describe something that is non-magical/explicable by real-life standards, and those are two very different things. That's why so many of us keep talking about mercilessly weeding out a lot of the non-magical character concepts from D&D though--some dude who seriously refuses to interact with wide chunks of the world around him is just kind of weird and ignorant after a while. I don't expect flat earthers to be very good at geology and I expect pilots to have a working knowledge of how lift works, so I'm pretty OK with a setting where the successful demon hunters are all people who made sure to pick up a few ways to maintain abjuration effects during their apprenticeship. Problem is, people still measure the normalcy of everything they encounter by their own experiences, so they don't quite understand on a visceral level how out of place Mr. Melee Machine can be in any given magical setting.

Basically this. Magic is a thing. It's like the physics of the world. There's no real reason fighter dude doesn't know combat spells. Its just something you would be likely to pick up in a world where magic is just a thing that most people seem apt to do.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:42 am

Kaelik wrote:Literally everything about magical verbs for mundane nouns was the sort of throw away stuff that looks low level and common place.

How the fuck you think those sentences show why people like mundane characters is just one more completely inexplicable thing about why you fucking weirdos like mundane characters in the first place.

Hiro punched a ghost

I don't understand how that sentence isn't just awesome.

EDIT: Correction. I don't understand how you think that sentence isn't awesome.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:53 am

Touch the untouchable! Punch the unpunchable! ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER.

I was more drawn to the reserve army of ghosts, myself. It's a tried and true tactic for defeating the armies of Dark Lords.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:58 am

I like this post, it was an informative post and provocative of thoughtful thinking.

That bit on the craft checks of firebrands and the effects of magical herbs, it does add a lot.

It's really in the presentation.

Desdan_Mervolam · Post by **Desdan_Mervolam** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:31 am

Whipstitch wrote:That's why so many of us keep talking about mercilessly weeding out a lot of the non-magical character concepts from D&D though--some dude who seriously refuses to interact with wide chunks of the world around him is just kind of weird and ignorant after a while. I don't expect flat earthers to be very good at geology and I expect pilots to have a working knowledge of how lift works, so I'm pretty OK with a setting where the successful demon hunters are all people who made sure to pick up a few ways to maintain abjuration effects during their apprenticeship. Problem is, people still measure the normalcy of everything they encounter by their own experiences, so they don't quite understand on a visceral level how out of place Mr. Melee Machine can be in any given magical setting.

I think the problem more is that the burden of interpretation is inextricably on the reader, not the writer. You can't tell players what they want to play. So if they get it in their head that they want to play a Badass Normal, they are just not going to accept anything that they perceive as being above and beyond what is realistically acceptable. For example, witness the people who are offered a spot in a World of Darkness game and insist on playing Mortals, even though they know that no one else is playing a mortal.

By all rights, somewhere around level 6-10 people should stop getting abilities that are fluffled as non-magical. But the idiots out there who scream and cry about "Weeabo Animu corruption" are loud enough that I'm not expecting D&D to do it any time soon.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:17 pm

not sure what all is going on here, but IF i have the right idea...

i prefer some more mundane words for less obscurity. game makers aren't shakespeare and flauhnting intelligence is meaningless. i believe there is no since using a $20 word when a 25 cent word will do. put down the thesaurus unless you really need it, and in gaming most of the time you dont. novels is another case, but rule books a little dry can be better, and clearer, and much more concise.

forged != enchanted

created = forged
created = enchanted

a wizard can create an enchanted sword through enchanting it, unless he is also a blacksmith.

this is a good use of a thesaurus, but getting too many magic-y word is a bit silly.

bound vs enslaved in regards to demons. or even trapped. not all the words mean the same thing.

i think sometimes they use the WRONG word in published books, by being novice author, and dont realize that the word they chose has a stronger meaning than the one they want. IE: 4e keywords (bloodied).

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:02 pm

...You Lost Me wrote:
Kaelik wrote:Literally everything about magical verbs for mundane nouns was the sort of throw away stuff that looks low level and common place.

How the fuck you think those sentences show why people like mundane characters is just one more completely inexplicable thing about why you fucking weirdos like mundane characters in the first place.

Hiro punched a ghost
I don't understand how that sentence isn't just awesome.

EDIT: Correction. I don't understand how you think that sentence isn't awesome.

Not speaking for Kaelik here, but if hiro can just punch ghosts, then ghosts are nothing special anymore. Ghosts feel special because you can't just hit them. Otherwise they are just a different coloured goblin.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:04 pm

shadzar wrote:not sure what all is going on here, but IF i have the right idea...

You do not.

This thread isn't about what specific words should be used to describe magical effects, but rather about where the magic comes from. Is the magic sword made by:

A] Enchanting a mundane sword made from mundane metal in mundane fire by casting a spell on it.
B] Forging a magic sword made from magic metal in a mundane fire.
C] Forging a magic sword made from mundane metal in a magic fire.
D] Imbuing a mundane sword made from mundane metal in mundane fire with magic power by dipping it into a magic liquid.

The basic problem is that people will be upset if the fighter ever says anything that starts with, "I enchant..." because they are so caught up in stereotypes that they can't imagine a anyone not wearing a robe and a pointy hat knowing how to enchant something. But for whatever reason, they're OK with it if a blacksmith forges a special sword out of special metal, or with a special fire to get special effects. Their entire hangup is based on muscular people not being allowed to know things about magic.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:16 pm

Such people have been thankfully rare in my experience--at my college pick up games the newbies routinely wanted to be gishes, bards or war domain clerics. The bigger problem I've always had has been the odd Batman fan who has defined their character mostly in terms of limitations.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:29 pm

...You Lost Me wrote:
Kaelik wrote:Literally everything about magical verbs for mundane nouns was the sort of throw away stuff that looks low level and common place.

How the fuck you think those sentences show why people like mundane characters is just one more completely inexplicable thing about why you fucking weirdos like mundane characters in the first place.

Hiro punched a ghost
I don't understand how that sentence isn't just awesome.

EDIT: Correction. I don't understand how you think that sentence isn't awesome.

Yes, ishy has it pretty much. Ghosts are interesting because they are non physical. If people can just punch ghosts with their mundane fists, then ghosts are just translucent goblins.

Translucent goblins are not cool. If there is some missing magical adverb that makes Hiro's punch not a normal punch, and therefore capable of hitting ghosts, then that adverb might be interesting. But just punching ghosts makes ghosts not ghosts.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:14 pm

A ghost is still a ghost in the stories it can tell before and after you punch it in the face, Kaelik. It still possesses people, flings shit, is bound by grief/rage/yer mum to the physical world, can go through solid objects and what not. All it says about a guy who can punch ghosts is he can punch ghosts. Granted, this needs a phlebotinum excuse to suspend disbelief, but "trained in the Guyana Highlands" is good enough and non-mystical.

Now, when we get to "can punch someone through spacetime" or "can punch the ghost out of someone", the phlebotinum needs to be more exacting, which leads to defining what is mundane in your world again.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:14 pm

No Mask, that is the point.

Ghosts have some qualities. The fact that a ghost does not lose other qualities when you take away one quality is not meaningful as to whether you have taken away one quality.

Yes, punching a ghost does in fact mean that the ghost has lost it's non physical nature. If a guy from the mountains can punch a ghost, then anyone can punch a ghost, if anyone can punch a ghost, ghosts are physical creatures.

That makes ghosts less cool than before. Wizards can possess people and telekinesis and walk through walls, but they are still physical creatures. Having those abilities does not make you not physical.

Ghosts are therefore less, when anyone can punch them, which makes punching them inherently less interesting.

That is why the very concept of nonmagically punching ghosts is itself offensive, but the reason why punching ghosts is not cool is the same reason punching demons or people is not cool.

Punching is inherently a boring action that I could go do right now, it is not a fantastical action, and punching a fantastical creature does not magically transform your boring action into a cool action.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:30 pm

Kaelik is engaging in a slippery slope argument that if you let one mundane dude mundanely punch ghosts, you have to let every mundane dude mundanely punch ghosts, and then ghosts aren't actually incorporeal anymore, and they have lost some ghostly attribute, and are therefore less ghostly. Your first inclination might be to call Kaelik fucking retarded. But I prefer to think that Christmas has infused him with a cheerful, naive optimism; what he's really saying is that if we all wanted to, we could go out and run as fast as Usain Bolt right now. Because if one mundane dude can accomplish one mundane thing mundanely, anyone can replicate that feat with tryhard.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:02 pm

I'm seeing it differently. The ghost is a ghost, and is incorporeal so people can't hurt him. But if you're punching a ghost, then you're doing a mundane thing to a supernatural creature and that makes you special. I don't think the action being mundane has to violate the specialness of the target, and I don't think mundane verbs imply mundane mediums for those verbs.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:18 pm

What I can't wrap my head around is why would you want to design a game with fantastical shit happening that everyone nominally has access to and then cater to people who very much hates the idea of using that shit. If people don't want to magic it up then "fuck them" should be the answer.

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:42 pm

If your punches are hurting the ghost, either your punches aren't mundane or the ghost isn't incorporeal. There's really not some wriggly middle that you can find if you bury the supernatural elements behind an obscure enough part of speech.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:44 pm

DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik is engaging in a slippery slope argument that if you let one mundane dude mundanely punch ghosts, you have to let every mundane dude mundanely punch ghosts, and then ghosts aren't actually incorporeal anymore, and they have lost some ghostly attribute, and are therefore less ghostly. Your first inclination might be to call Kaelik fucking retarded. But I prefer to think that Christmas has infused him with a cheerful, naive optimism; what he's really saying is that if we all wanted to, we could go out and run as fast as Usain Bolt right now. Because if one mundane dude can accomplish one mundane thing mundanely, anyone can replicate that feat with tryhard.

No DSM, what I am saying is that non physical things are non physical, and if they are in fact physical, then they are not non-physical.

If there is lava that Usain Bolt can touch without being burned, then other people can also touch that lava without being burned, and therefore, that lava is missing some essential element of lavaness.

So yes, if someone can punch a ghost mundanely, then the ghost must in fact be a physical entity that can be physically interacted with by anyone, unless there is some kind of magic acting on or through the punch.

Now, all that is quite aside from the fact that being able to punch a Nazgul isn't in and of interesting or cool or impressive, because the Nazgul is still kind of awesome, and you are still a lame ass fuckhead who punches things.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:14 pm

John Magnum wrote:If your punches are hurting the ghost, either your punches aren't mundane or the ghost isn't incorporeal. There's really not some wriggly middle that you can find if you bury the supernatural elements behind an obscure enough part of speech.

You could just make the incorporeality conditional. If the ghost treats holy water, silver, and laurel wood as solid, you can punch it out if you do some research and make a set of fancy punching gloves. Of course, that probably means making every ghost into a Steve if you don't want every ghost hunter to go around with silver knuckles and a blessed Super Soaker.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:47 pm

Iron. Iron disrupts ghosts. So does salt. To kill them you have to burn and salt their bones.