Verbs Vs. Nouns

[Soda]

effect similar to an antimagic field... make a normal melee attack that has an additional effect similar to a mage's disjunction

Let me fix that typo for you. *Tome Wizard Not Mundane No Way.

Hold on, DR, Fast Healing, Immune to Death effects...? *Tome Magical Mage Magus Magician

[Roog]

Only characters with sufficient karmic significance (i.e. PCs and significant NPCs) can punch the ghost.

So if the "mundane" character is actually magic, then they can punch the ghost?

Only if you consider PCs and significant NPCs to be magical by virtue of being PCs and significant NPCs.

So if in fact, ghosts aren't really special at all, and you can just punch them by being upset and the hero punching them is a meaningless feat, then the "mundane" character can compete on the same level as "housewife villager #3".

If random NPC villagers cannot achieve sufficiently strong emotion or sufficient emotional disciple (which ever the bar is) then random NPC villagers cannot punch the ghost.

Your "wait for the ghost's immunity to be waived voluntarily" thing should obviously not even be considered. Since by definition they wouldn't be incorporeal at that point.

But the random NPC villager could not get the ghost to waive their immunity, so the ghost would still be incorporeal at that point if the NPC villager was trying to punch them.

[Previn]

Maybe ghost are emotions, and if you're emotional enough, or emotionally disciplined enough you can actually punch them, without resorting to magic.

So if in fact, ghosts aren't really special at all, and you can just punch them by being upset and the hero punching them is a meaningless feat, then the "mundane" character can compete on the same level as "housewife villager #3".

Well, that's one extreme.

You could also take it to the other extreme: If you're not in the equivalent of a barbarian's Mighty Rage, or don't have the equivalent of a monk's Diamond Soul, then no, you can't punch ghosts. So while mundane, and non-magical, it is not something "housewife villager #3" gets to do just because she's a little upset that little Billy didn't do the dishes.

And that can be perfectly special enough.

[Roog]

Hint: a secret knowledge that allows you to bypass the laws of physics as experienced by other people is fucking magic, you fucking twat.

Depending on what you mean by "the laws of physics as experienced by other people" this would include things like blacksmithing or writing under the category of magic.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

I genuinely don't understand how this is an argument. You can't punch ghosts unless one of the following is true:

• You have magic that lets you punch ghosts.
• Your ghosts are much weaker than truly incorporeal ghosts, and have some normal escape clause for their immunities ("can be punched in the sunlight", "can be punched if their fetters have been moved", "can be punched if you have a silver ring on", or whatever).
• Your ghosts are so weak and stupid that they don't have physical immunity under any circumstances, in which case your "ghost" is just a ghoul or a zombie and you are moving goalposts for the purposes of shitting on the conversation.

That's it. There is no option four, and there is no option where you non-magically punch a ghost that doesn't involve you either shitting on the conversation or your character being a stand-in for a random NPC villager who sucks. It is not possible to non-magically punch a ghost and still be "cool". For you to be able to non-magically punch a ghost in the first place, the bar for ghost punching has to be set so low that the fact you could do it isn't cool.

I'm fine with this, actually. Punching a ghost should require either magic (spellcasting or a special technique, I don't care which is your preferred fluff), or using lore to exploit a ghost's weakness. Either way preserves a ghosts "Ghostness". And yeah, having a weakeness to exploit makes ghosts weaker. Duh. But it's still a ghost.

[erik]

I genuinely don't understand how this is an argument. You can't punch ghosts unless one of the following is true:

• You have magic that lets you punch ghosts.
• Your ghosts are much weaker than truly incorporeal ghosts, and have some normal escape clause for their immunities ("can be punched in the sunlight", "can be punched if their fetters have been moved", "can be punched if you have a silver ring on", or whatever).
• Your ghosts are so weak and stupid that they don't have physical immunity under any circumstances, in which case your "ghost" is just a ghoul or a zombie and you are moving goalposts for the purposes of shitting on the conversation.

I think a large amount of people are saying that the 2nd one happens, creating a fair bit if wiggle room for ghosts and Kaelik seems to generally not be granting that- reclassifying things under either magic or non-ghost if there is another way to badtouch them.

When this branch of the discussion began I immediately thought of this Solomon Kane short story.

relevant text:

Now a vague and grisly mouth gaped wide and the demoniac laughter

again shrieked but, soul-shaking in its nearness. And in the midst of

feat threat of doom, Kane deliberately levelled his long pistol and

fired. A maniacal yell of rage and mockery answered the report, and

the thing came at him like a flying sheet of smoke, long shadowy arms

stretched to drag him down.



Kane, moving with the dynamic speed of a famished wolf, fired the

second pistol with as little effect, snatched his long rapier from its

sheath and thrust into the centre of the misty attacker. The blade

sang as it passed clear through, encountering no solid resistance, and

Kane felt icy fingers grip his limbs, bestial talons tear his garments

and the skin beneath,



He dropped the useless sword and sought to grapple with his foe. It

was like fighting a floating mist, a flying shadow armed with dagger

like claws. His savage blows met empty air, his leanly mighty arms, in

whose grasp strong men had died, swept nothingness and clutched

emptiness. Naught was solid or real save the flaying, apelike fingers

with their crooked talons, and the crazy eyes which burned into the

shuddering depths of his soul.



Kane realized that he was in a desperate plight indeed. Already his

garments hung in tatters and he bled from a score of deep wounds. But

he never flinched, and the thought of flight never entered his mind.

He had never fled from a single foe, and had the thought occurred to

him he would have flushed with shame.



He saw no help for it now, but that his form should lie there beside

the fragments of the other ' victim, but the thought held no terrors

for him. His only wish was to give as good an account of himself as

possible before the end came, and if he could, to inflict some damage

on his unearthly foe. There above the dead man's torn body, man fought

with demon under the pale light of the rising moon, with all the

advantages with the demon, save one. And that one was enough to

overcome the others. For if abstract hate may bring into material

substance a ghostly thing, may not courage, equally abstract, form a

concrete weapon to combat that ghost? Kane fought with his arms and

his feet and his hands, and he was aware at last that the ghost began

to give back before him, and the fearful slaughter changed to screams

of baffled fury. For man's only weapon is courage that flinches not

from the gates of Hell itself, and against such not even the legions

of Hell can stand. Of this Kane knew nothing; he only knew that the

talons which tore and rended him seemed to grow weaker and wavering,

that a wild light grew and grew in the horrible eyes. And reeling and

gasping, he rushed in, grappled the thing at last and threw it, and as

they tumbled about on the moor and it writhed and lapped his limbs

like a serpent of smoke, his flesh crawled and his hair stood on end,

for he began to understand its gibbering.

Basically, he's fighting an angry ghost that has killed many men already, and he's failing at it because it is incorporeal, but he is able to bad-assedly punch and wrestle it when he fires up his super-courage and finally throws it down.

It seems like this qualifies in that there's no techo/magic and the thing is a ghost that was killing the poor NPCs, but this bad ass mortal wasn't having it so he threw down. It is still a ghost. Not as powerful as a completely untouchable ghost, but I'd still call it a ghost. A tortured soul of a deceased human that haunts this earth, able to pass through matter. Whatever.

[Orion]

@Frank

Don't you think the problem with the "cold iron" example is that iron isn't very fucking special, rather than with the concept of making stuff out of special shit? Let's say the only weapon that will hurt ghosts is a Flamebrand, and the only way to get a flamebrand is to look up a record of meteor sighting, go dig up some Nickel from the crater, and make it into a sword on a forge built inside a temple and fired with coal from a volcanic island. Random villager #3 could totally stab a ghost if he managed to rack down both a meteor and a volcano, learned how to work metal at extraordinarily high temperatures and had access to an ancient temple. But I have to say, if I managed to pull all that off, I would not feel very threatened by Villager #3. Or for higher level stories, "literally anyone" who skimmed water from the Fount of Unborn Souls, purified it in a dragon's breath, and consecrated it with an angel's tears could forge into a sword that would stab ghosts. I'm pretty sure pulling that off qualifies as special.

@Kaelik,

I think we have to agree to disagree, because I find mundane verbs inherently more interesting than magic ones. Telling me that I'm "enchanting" "conjuring" or "binding" something tells me essentially nothing about what's going on. If there's going to be any interesting visuals at all, I'm going to have to make them up. And if we're talking about D&D spellcasters, I'm going to have to make it up without even being able to use real-world religions and magic beliefs for reference because every damn wizard in the history of earth did more than chant and wave his hands. (Except, weirdly, Jesus and the Apostles)

If you tell me I'm "forging," "brewing," "weaving," or "calculating" something, no we're getting somewhere. The great thing about verbs that come from real life is that they come with traditions and visuals pre-built. We have hundreds of years of tradition and philosophy telling us what brewing beer or serving tea means, what attitude one should approach it with, and what it demands of us. Attaching a real verb to magic makes it more iconic and more relatable.

@Everyone,

Okay, I rather regret including "punch a ghost" on the list there. It is an example of doing something magic with a mundane verb, but it's not really an example of the type of character I'm saying we need to write. We already have Monks who can punch ghosts through secret techniques, that's not a whole in D&D or fantasy gaming generally. For the record, here's how I look at it:

For a "mundane" character to stab a ghost, he needs to be using a magic sword. That much I feel is true by definition. Ghosts are immune to normal attacks, so a sword that can hurt ghosts is by definition magic. Heck, looking at the werewolf example, I wouldn't say that a silver dagger is a "mundane" way of hurting a werewolf, I'd say that in D&D silver is a magical metal. It's all sacred and shit with mystical properties. So to stab ghosts, you need a magic sword. That means if you want to be a "mundane" and fight ghosts, the game needs to guarantee you have access to a magic weapon.

There are basically three approaches that have been discussed on the Den. One is the "anime option" -- The fighter somehow trains so hard that eventually his body is made of magic. The other is the "everyone's a wizard" option. The Fighter gets magic powers that he can use to do things like enchant a magic sword. So he's now a "sword wizard." For the record, I think both of these are cool and I'm happy to play with them. There's a third option which is always mentioned, and dismissed, in this perennial argument. Someone inevitably suggests keeping all the magic outside the fighter--giving him magic pets and mounts and wizard lackeys who do all the work for him and furnish him with all the magic gear he needs. People point out, rightly, that it seems like the Fighter is not really the interesting part of this team and probably the Wizard should just cut the middleman and ride the dragon himself.

All of these options assume that any action which has a "magic" result like "you now have a magic sword!" is necessarily a magic activity. What I want to do is introduce a distinction between "effecting something, magically" and "effective something, that is magical." Punching a ghost is magic--ghosts are immune to nonmagic punches. If you can do it, you're probably a Monk or something and you are made of magic. But punching a Monk is not magic, even though he is a magic person. Similarly, stabbing a werewolf with a silver sword is magic. But hitting a lump of silver with a hammer is not magic. The problem with D&D is that at low levels a good weapon is good because it's "made out of cool stuff." At high levels a good weapon is good because "somebody mumbled at it for a while." But that's entirely arbitrary. There's no reason you could add a dozen new special materials that turn out flaming weapons and vorpal swords and holy avengers when crafted.

Now, you can argue that at a certain point, making a DC35 Blacksmith check to forge a sword out of Pure Thought, or even out of Starsteel is magic, and to be honest I'd agree with you. In fact it's the kind of magic most magic-users in history and many magic-users in fiction actually use. Heck, it might be what's going on behind the scenes in D&D--nobody knows what all that gold is getting spent on. But if you look carefully, this thread never claimed to about making a "mundane" character viable. It's about figuring out what people who think they want a "mundane" character actually want and what we can do to appease them. My argument is not that my hypothetical Warrior class would actually be a "mundane" character. It's that we could make more people happy with their magic guy by finding a new way to present magic. People got tired of having to feel "wizardy" so we went wuxia and let people feel "monk-ish" and then we go superhero and let people feel "mutanty" or "demidivine" and these are all good as far as they go. But I feel that we could capture more market share by offering a "fightery/craftery" take on magic that revolved around finding and exploiting magic places, materials, and animals.

PS -- The "secret ghost punching technique" thing bends my brain because I'm pretty sure it comes down to how you present it in the rulebook. If you say "the plains riders know a secret technique that lets them punch ghosts," and then give it to them as an (ex) ability without explaining what it is, they're definitely magic. But let's go back to the ghost vs. iron. A peasant stabbing a ghost with cold iron isn't himself magic; the iron is magic. Even if the ghost writeup said "ghosts are vulnerable to cold iron weapons, but this fact is not generally known except among the plains barbarians," the barbarians still aren't magic. So I would argue, If you wrote in Plains Rider prestige class that "Ghosts cannot be punched, but they can be hurt by a spear hand. The Plains Barbarians know this and practice this move daily." Then the barbarians would not be magic even though they had Ghost tough as a class features. Fingertips would be magic, and the barbarians would just be experts in the use of fingertips.

[fectin]

It's possible that Martin's publisher demanded more explicit scenes, and he didn't want to mess with his main story. That would explain why he included a character on another continent who for the entire first book just has sex happen at her, and also why she had less sex happen at her later on, when the books had sold better.

I don't know anything, it just seems like it fits.

[hyzmarca]

Hint: a secret knowledge that allows you to bypass the laws of physics as experienced by other people is fucking magic, you fucking twat.

Depending on what you mean by "the laws of physics as experienced by other people" this would include things like blacksmithing or writing under the category of magic.

Indeed it does. When most of the population is illiterate, writing is magic and people assume that you can crazy magic things with a quill and parchment.

That's where the whole sterotype of wizards with books and scrolls comes from.

When it comes down to it, a D&D wizard is just a guy who knows how to read. He studies textbooks that tell him how to do "magic." And if you enforce material components, that magical fireball is really a primitive gunpowder grenade.

[Username17]

Or to put it another way: there are no and can be no "mundane characters" in Supernatural, because magical effects are something absolutely anyone can do. You can spend thirty second telling someone how to banish a ghost and then they can go do it even if they got up that morning not even knowing that ghosts were real. If there's a way to banish ghosts and you can do it, then either you have some fucking magic or it doesn't require magic to get rid of ghosts in your setting. That is exhaustive, there is no possible option three.

There is no possible setup in which ghosts are cool enough to need magic to get rid of and your character can get rid of them and your character is all mundane. People keep asking for it, but it's literally impossible, and they just have to learn to fucking accept that.

-Username17

[Orion]

Bullshit. I don't watch Supernatural but I'm pretty sure it has angels and demons and shit in it. Those guys are magic, and a regular dude is still a mundane even if you take 30 seconds to teach him how to banish a ghost. Now, you *could* write a fantasy game where a wizard was just a dude with a bunch of old books, and where in principle anyone with a comprehensive mastery of Latin grammar could summon demons in the same way anyone with comprehensive mastery of metallurgy can make flaming sword. That would even be pretty cool. But that's really explicitly not how D&D Wizards work. D&D Wizards are made of magic and store that magic in their bodies. The magic isn't in the book because they don't need to have the book on their person to do the spell. It isn't in the words because reciting the words does nothing if they don't have the spell prepared, or if they've already used it up. The magic is stored inside the wizard and only controlled by the words. That's a completely different thing from your example guy in Supernatural. Just like a Luminary doesn't become a Supernatural because they learned how to throw salt.

The question is: is this a world where knowing Latin and metallurgy gets you farther than it does on earth, or one where knowing Latin and metallurgy *in addition to being full of secret sauce* gets you farther than Latin and metallurgy get you on earth. My argument is that there's a substantial market of people who find the former more satisfying, and it's worth thinking about how to cater to them.

[nockermensch]

Hint: a secret knowledge that allows you to bypass the laws of physics as experienced by other people is fucking magic, you fucking twat.

-Username17

Step 1: Define magic as the ability of doing awesome things.

Step 2: Point that non-magical people can't be awesome.

Dude, what?

[Username17]

Bullshit. I don't watch Supernatural but I'm pretty sure it has angels and demons and shit in it. Those guys are magic, and a regular dude is still a mundane even if you take 30 seconds to teach him how to banish a ghost.

Yes, it does have angels and demons in it, and yes those guys are more magical (and more powerful) than "ordinary" dudes. But the thing is that in that setting, an "ordinary" dude can still cast fucking magic. That does not fit the fucking useless "mundane dude" archetype that Fighter enthusiasts keep fapping to. There is literally no one in that entire show's world who is as fundamentally helpless against the world of magic as the D&D Fighter is supposed to be.

-Username17

[fectin]

Or to put it another way: there are no and can be no "mundane characters" in Supernatural, because magical effects are something absolutely anyone can do. You can spend thirty second telling someone how to banish a ghost and then they can go do it even if they got up that morning not even knowing that ghosts were real. If there's a way to banish ghosts and you can do it, then either you have some fucking magic or it doesn't require magic to get rid of ghosts in your setting. That is exhaustive, there is no possible option three.

There is no possible setup in which ghosts are cool enough to need magic to get rid of and your character can get rid of them and your character is all mundane. People keep asking for it, but it's literally impossible, and they just have to learn to fucking accept that.

-Username17

Option three: Your character is not personally magic, but can interact with or affect magic.

[Libertad]

This would all be made so much easier if we made magic it's own distinct thing instead of "generic supernatural stuff," and the noncasters could be like Monks (except they don't suck). They're not technically spellcasters, but they get immunities and "special energy" attacks gained through training and mind preparation and all that.

I don't care if the super-smart guy goes into "magic" territory because he can effectively use Divination-like abilities, or the nimble guy's so light on his feet that he can pull a Jesus-style water walk.

Just say that they get their abilities from training or "the inner Chi which resides inside all living things" or something like that.

[Avoraciopoctules]

How many people in this thread are talking about D&D Fighters?

When I think of a "Mundane hero", that totally allows for using rituals 'anyone' can do out of a book.

The Gram guy from King's Quest is definitely something I'd call a 'mundane hero' even after he gets into a shapeshifting battle with an evil sorceror. He has to creep around and figure out just enough magic tricks to be competetive, unlike the overtly magical types who bend reality casually. And he doesn't have the ability to do anything impressive without assembling a Batman Belt's worth of stuff beforehand.

[Previn]

There is no possible setup in which ghosts are cool enough to need magic to get rid of and your character can get rid of them and your character is all mundane. People keep asking for it, but it's literally impossible, and they just have to learn to fucking accept that.

-Username17

As a rule, the only way to get rid of a ghost for sure is to determine the reason for its existence and set right whatever prevents it from resting in peace. The exact means varies with each spirit and may require a good deal of research.

How exactly do you reconcile that a mundane person without magic in D&D right now can get rid of ghosts? Are we now saying that ghosts in D&D are not cool enough? Is doing something like digging a hole and properly burying remains a magical act?

[Username17]

Option three: Your character is not personally magic, but can interact with or affect magic.

That is not a third option, or an option at all. If you can affect magic, you are fucking magic, you fucking twat. That's what being magic is.

-Username17

[Avoraciopoctules]

Hint: a secret knowledge that allows you to bypass the laws of physics as experienced by other people is fucking magic, you fucking twat.

-Username17

Step 1: Define magic as the ability of doing awesome things.

Step 2: Point that non-magical people can't be awesome.

Dude, what?

[Whipstitch]

Option three: Your character is not personally magic, but can interact with or affect magic.

You mean like a god damned wizard?

[sabs]

There is no possible setup in which ghosts are cool enough to need magic to get rid of and your character can get rid of them and your character is all mundane. People keep asking for it, but it's literally impossible, and they just have to learn to fucking accept that.

-Username17

As a rule, the only way to get rid of a ghost for sure is to determine the reason for its existence and set right whatever prevents it from resting in peace. The exact means varies with each spirit and may require a good deal of research.

How exactly do you reconcile that a mundane person without magic in D&D right now can get rid of ghosts? Are we now saying that ghosts in D&D are not cool enough? Is doing something like digging a hole and properly burying remains a magical act?

That person is not getting rid of the ghost. That Person is allowing the Ghost to resolve the problem that keeps it a ghost. It's a really common Ghost Mythos that they exist in order to 'accomplish' something they failed to in life. So really, that person is just helping the Ghost finish, so that he's no longer a ghost.

That is seriously different than slashing it with Ghost Slayer, or doing an exorcism.

[Orion]

Frank, you're being dumb. Everyone can achieve magical tasks through a sufficient chain of intermediary steps. Paying a wizard to blow up a ghost does not make you personally magic. Paying a wizard to make you a magic sword, and then stabbing the ghost with it, does not make you personally magic. Finding a magic sword on the ground, and then stabbing a ghost with it does not make you personally magic. Finding a lump of magic ore, and beating it into the shape of a word, and then stabbing a ghost with it does not make you personally magic.

Anyone can interact with magic. Wizards are magic and Magic Swords are magic and anyone can punch a wizard or pickup a magic sword. Hell, anyone can interact with ghosts, since "having a conversation" is a kind of interaction. What everyone can't do is interact with things in a magical way. That is, not everyone can enchant things, bind things, channel things, transcend things, or transform things. Some people are stuck picking things up and hitting them with other things. But those people can interact with magic things, and those things can exert magical effects on other things.

[Username17]

The Gram guy from King's Quest is definitely something I'd call a 'mundane hero' even after he gets into a shapeshifting battle with an evil sorceror. He has to creep around and figure out just enough magic tricks to be competetive, unlike the overtly magical types who bend reality casually. And he doesn't have the ability to do anything impressive without assembling a Batman Belt's worth of stuff beforehand.

No. That's stupid. You are stupid. If you get into a fucking shapeshifting battle, you not mundane. If your definition of "mundane" is "someone who can get into a fucking shapeshifting battle", then your definition of "mundane" is pants on head retarded and we should stop talking to you. Seriously: what the fuck?

Grahm has to sneak around because other people are more powerful than he is. But he still has magic, because he gets into a god damned shape shifting battle, you blithering idiot!

-Username17

[Avoraciopoctules]

Gram picks up a step-by-step list of instructions on how to set up three spells in advance. Anyone from town could have done it, so Gram is only special because the player can reload saves.

[sabs]

Frank, you're being dumb. Everyone can achieve magical tasks through a sufficient chain of intermediary steps. Paying a wizard to blow up a ghost does not make you personally magic. Paying a wizard to make you a magic sword, and then stabbing the ghost with it, does not make you personally magic. Finding a magic sword on the ground, and then stabbing a ghost with it does not make you personally magic. Finding a lump of magic ore, and beating it into the shape of a word, and then stabbing a ghost with it does not make you personally magic.

Anyone can interact with magic. Wizards are magic and Magic Swords are magic and anyone can punch a wizard or pickup a magic sword. Hell, anyone can interact with ghosts, since "having a conversation" is a kind of interaction. What everyone can't do is interact with things in a magical way. That is, not everyone can enchant things, bind things, channel things, transcend things, or transform things. Some people are stuck picking things up and hitting them with other things. But those people can interact with magic things, and those things can exert magical effects on other things.

How do you write up a character class with the abilities of:

Happen to find a Magic sword when I need one.
Have pocket wizard.

anyone can pick up a magic sword and smack a ghost with it. But where does that make for an interesting character who is in any meaningful way better than Peasant #4