Verbs Vs. Nouns

[Prak]

And Prak, what was the point of all that outside of showing how clever you are/enjoying the sight of your own posts? Is it. "Any form of phlebotinum or narrative bullshit is interchangeable with and must be considered magic since "magic" is phlebotinum and narrative bullshit almost by definition?"

Well it killed time too...
But no, the point was "none of these satisfy the criteria of "PC can mundanely punch ghost in face, but random villager cannot"

@Previn:

Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.

[OgreBattle]

1. The ghost can only be touched by a hero that knows no fear. The villagers are cowardly peasants and cannot touch it, as their quivering yellow hearts betray them when it appears.
2. The ghost can only be harmed by one who is unburdened by sin and unfettered by earthly belongings. The peasant is held back by his owning a farm and lusting after his neighbor's daughter.
3. The ghost can only be struck in the instant it attacks, for that is the only time it becomes corporeal. The peasants do not have the speed to do so.
4. The ghost can only be harmed by a nail from the shoe of the horse that trampled him. The peasant lacks the strength to do anything to the ghost by stabbing it with a nail.
5. The ghost can only be harmed by a knight in service of the True King of England. The peasant is not such a knight.
6. The ghost can only be grasped at sunset and can only die at sunrise. The peasant is incapable of grappling with the ghost for an entire night without the ghost escaping.
7. The ghost can only be touched by someone who coats himself in deadly poison. The peasant would drop dead if he tried.
8. The ghost can only be defeated by someone who can recite the Epic of Gilgamesh in the original Mesopotamian from memory without a single error as they battle it. The peasant can't read, let alone recite ancient poetry.
9. The ghost is a ghost of a Jotun. It can only be killed using Thor's hammer. The peasant is not even strong enough to pick up Thor's hammer.
10. The ghost haunting the mine can only be harmed by silver. It flees through the stone walls of the mine whenever anyone attacks it with silver. In order to kill it, you must cleave through stone fast enough to chase it down.

These are interesting.

[Roog]

Let's do ten.

1. The ghost can only be touched by a hero that knows no fear. The villagers are cowardly peasants and cannot touch it, as their quivering yellow hearts betray them when it appears.

Have them all stand around a paladin. Alternatively, and more hilariously, enchant the ghost such that it emanates an aura of courage which affects all targets within range.

Neither of these is the villagers bypassing the incorpreality themselves. The non-magical PC "hero that knows no fear" bypasses it without assistance.

2. The ghost can only be harmed by one who is unburdened by sin and unfettered by earthly belongings. The peasant is held back by his owning a farm and lusting after his neighbor's daughter.

So the village beggar can go punch the ghost, great.

The village beggar is unfettered by earthly belongings, but is not unburdened by sin. If he was exceptional enough to be both, then he would not be just some random villager.

3. The ghost can only be struck in the instant it attacks, for that is the only time it becomes corporeal. The peasants do not have the speed to do so.

I guarantee you at least one villager could pull off the reflex save sufficient, even if only be luck. Also, mechanically, this just means that you have to hit it with an AoO provoked when it attacks. Or prepare an action.

Not everything is D&D. If you wanted to put this in D&D terms then you would need to use another mechanic.

4. The ghost can only be harmed by a nail from the shoe of the horse that trampled him. The peasant lacks the strength to do anything to the ghost by stabbing it with a nail.

So the peasant puts the nail on a heavy pillar, pulls it up by pulley, and drops it on the ghost.

Maybe a peasant can do this, but any peasant crafty enough to set up a ghost trap is not a random villager.

5. The ghost can only be harmed by a knight in service of the True King of England. The peasant is not such a knight.

Point. But also blatantly magical.

No more magical Frank's listed escape clauses ("can be punched in the sunlight", "can be punched if their fetters have been moved", "can be punched if you have a silver ring on", or whatever)

6. The ghost can only be grasped at sunset and can only die at sunrise. The peasant is incapable of grappling with the ghost for an entire night without the ghost escaping.

Betcha the village strong guy would at least have a decent chance.

Any village strong guy who can perform a heroic act of endurance (wrestling all night with a tireless opponent) is not just some random villager.

7. The ghost can only be touched by someone who coats himself in deadly poison. The peasant would drop dead if he tried.

Nothing says it has to be a contact poison. Use an ingested poison and be careful.

So rewrite the condition as "7. The ghost can only be touched by someone who coats himself in deadly contact poison. The peasant would drop dead if he tried."

8. The ghost can only be defeated by someone who can recite the Epic of Gilgamesh in the original Mesopotamian from memory without a single error as they battle it. The peasant can't read, let alone recite ancient poetry.

The epic of Gilgamesh originates from a time when history was oral. Saying that no one in the village can accomplish this feat is fucking retarded.

If no one in the knows the poem, then no one can recite it. But this bar basically requires a "magical" skill to bypass.

9. The ghost is a ghost of a Jotun. It can only be killed using Thor's hammer. The peasant is not even strong enough to pick up Thor's hammer.

Neither is the PC. Neither is Thor, unless he has the rest of his magic swag.

So make the requirement that the ghost can only be harmed by some other type of weapon that no random peasant in the village is strong enough to wield.

[Prak]

Let's do ten.

1. The ghost can only be touched by a hero that knows no fear. The villagers are cowardly peasants and cannot touch it, as their quivering yellow hearts betray them when it appears.

Have them all stand around a paladin. Alternatively, and more hilariously, enchant the ghost such that it emanates an aura of courage which affects all targets within range.

Neither of these is the villagers bypassing the incorpreality themselves. The non-magical PC "hero that knows no fear" bypasses it without assistance.

Doesn't matter. It requires phlebotinum, thus fails on first principles. Even the hero must have "Immune to Fear" which is phlebotinous.

2. The ghost can only be harmed by one who is unburdened by sin and unfettered by earthly belongings. The peasant is held back by his owning a farm and lusting after his neighbor's daughter.

So the village beggar can go punch the ghost, great.

The village beggar is unfettered by earthly belongings, but is not unburdened by sin. If he was exceptional enough to be both, then he would not be just some random villager.

Who says the beggar is a sinner? Maybe he's a perfectly nice guy, who just happens to be poor. Exceptional means "can have pc class levels, and more than three at that."

3. The ghost can only be struck in the instant it attacks, for that is the only time it becomes corporeal. The peasants do not have the speed to do so.

I guarantee you at least one villager could pull off the reflex save sufficient, even if only be luck. Also, mechanically, this just means that you have to hit it with an AoO provoked when it attacks. Or prepare an action.

Not everything is D&D. If you wanted to put this in D&D terms then you would need to use another mechanic.

The point is, that there is little stopping a villager from doing it, other than luck.

4. The ghost can only be harmed by a nail from the shoe of the horse that trampled him. The peasant lacks the strength to do anything to the ghost by stabbing it with a nail.

So the peasant puts the nail on a heavy pillar, pulls it up by pulley, and drops it on the ghost.

Maybe a peasant can do this, but any peasant crafty enough to set up a ghost trap is not a random villager.

Really? I bullshitted that ghost trap in about thirty seconds. While I'm certainly more than a peasant, at least one peasant would know how to do that, say, the guy who raises barns and uses pulleys literally every day. Or the blacksmith, who knows "I can't punch steel into shape, but I can use a hammer for weight and hardness, with my strength behind it to do so."

5. The ghost can only be harmed by a knight in service of the True King of England. The peasant is not such a knight.

Point. But also blatantly magical.

No more magical Frank's listed escape clauses ("can be punched in the sunlight", "can be punched if their fetters have been moved", "can be punched if you have a silver ring on", or whatever)

Again, it has phlebotinum behind it, thus it fails the test on first principles.

6. The ghost can only be grasped at sunset and can only die at sunrise. The peasant is incapable of grappling with the ghost for an entire night without the ghost escaping.

Betcha the village strong guy would at least have a decent chance.

Any village strong guy who can perform a heroic act of endurance (wrestling all night with a tireless opponent) is not just some random villager.

Who said ghosts are strong? They're actually pretty weak, physically speaking. The village blacksmith could sit on it like an unruly kid until dawn. Also, who said you had to wrestle it? The rule is "can only be grasped at sunset, and only die at sunrise." Wrap a chain around it and build a fire. It can't escape the chain, and at sunrise it'll burn.

7. The ghost can only be touched by someone who coats himself in deadly poison. The peasant would drop dead if he tried.

Nothing says it has to be a contact poison. Use an ingested poison and be careful.

So rewrite the condition as "7. The ghost can only be touched by someone who coats himself in deadly contact poison. The peasant would drop dead if he tried."

Goalpost moving.

8. The ghost can only be defeated by someone who can recite the Epic of Gilgamesh in the original Mesopotamian from memory without a single error as they battle it. The peasant can't read, let alone recite ancient poetry.

The epic of Gilgamesh originates from a time when history was oral. Saying that no one in the village can accomplish this feat is fucking retarded.

If no one in the knows the poem, then no one can recite it. But this bar basically requires a "magical" skill to bypass.

What magical skill? It requires "Know obscure poem" and "rote memory-obscure poem" and a language skill. Or just "rote memory-obscure poem in dead language."

9. The ghost is a ghost of a Jotun. It can only be killed using Thor's hammer. The peasant is not even strong enough to pick up Thor's hammer.

Neither is the PC. Neither is Thor, unless he has the rest of his magic swag.

So make the requirement that the ghost can only be harmed by some other type of weapon that no random peasant in the village is strong enough to wield.

Again, goalpost moving.

I notice you said nothing about #10.

[Surgo]

Sorry, not really quoting this to respond to it in any meaningful way, but rather to restore the context to earlier in the thread which I'm still stuck in.

If your "ghost" has the power "immune to all physical attacks except cold iron which it is magically weak against", that is a different and much weaker power. But in any case, you still can't fucking punch it without fucking magic. And if you hit it with a cold iron blade you aren't using your own magic, you're able to hit it because of the explicit parameters of the ghost's magic. You are doing something that is not particularly impressive, because literally any of the extras in the village could do the same thing in this circumstance

I only read the first three pages of this thread, but something has come to mind in such and I don't think it was addressed/answered. It always seems like there should be some space for the guy whose talent is "being really smart", where their "superpower" is knowing all the monster's weaknesses so they can interact with them as if they weren't monsters (i.e., the ghost example continually used throughout this thread).

The problem with that is obvious: how the fuck does this work in a believable way at all? Is the rest of the world just holding the idiot ball or something? Does everyone forget that cold iron can cut ghosts or something unless one guy with their head on straight is continually reminding people of that fact? I feel like this character gets a lot of use in fiction and is "cool" (I mean, most monster movies work this way), but I'm not sure if its fundamentally usable at all while still making for a sensible world.

[Prak]

The problem with that is obvious: how the fuck does this work in a believable way at all? Is the rest of the world just holding the idiot ball or something? Does everyone forget that cold iron can cut ghosts or something unless one guy with their head on straight is continually reminding people of that fact? I feel like this character gets a lot of use in fiction and is "cool" but I'm not sure if its fundamentally usable at all.

That is literally how Batman is usually written. My friend likes to say that Batman does have a power, it's field of dumb. Whenever he's around every other superhero gets dumber.

In D&D, this is basically what the Bard is supposed to do, though.

[Kaelik]

The problem with that is obvious: how the fuck does this work in a believable way at all? Is the rest of the world just holding the idiot ball or something? Does everyone forget that cold iron can cut ghosts or something unless one guy with their head on straight is continually reminding people of that fact? I feel like this character gets a lot of use in fiction and is "cool" (I mean, most monster movies work this way), but I'm not sure if its fundamentally usable at all while still making for a sensible world.

Knowing about the monsters should not be someone's entire schtik. It is a relatively minor thing that should be open to everyone.

Hence why my knowledge rules basically let people actually know specifically everything about monsters with a decent check. No one should have "knows monsters, but is really better standing in the back, telling real characters that ghosts are subject to iron" as a class feature. The Cleric can just know about ghosts, and the Barbarian can know about fey and giants, and the Wizard can know about Dragons and Constructs.

[Roog]

Prak_Anima, we don't appear to be arguing the same test.

I was responding Frank's request/challenge which was:

Seriously: name a bar it is possible to have in which some random NPC villager would not be able to punch the ghost and yet simultaneously a mundane PC can punch that ghost without having, knowing, using, being, or be aided by magic.

I am attempting to formulate one or more bars that meets this test. To that end I am free to add, change, or ignore bars.

1. The ghost can only be touched by a hero that knows no fear. The villagers are cowardly peasants and cannot touch it, as their quivering yellow hearts betray them when it appears.

It requires phlebotinum, thus fails on first principles. Even the hero must have "Immune to Fear" which is phlebotinous.

Unless controlling your fear is a learned skill, which and random villagers would not be sufficiently skilled.

So the village beggar can go punch the ghost, great.

The village beggar is unfettered by earthly belongings, but is not unburdened by sin. If he was exceptional enough to be both, then he would not be just some random villager.

Who says the beggar is a sinner? Maybe he's a perfectly nice guy, who just happens to be poor. Exceptional means "can have pc class levels, and more than three at that."

As to whether a the beggar was a sinner, that would be a setting dependent religious cosmology question.

I guarantee you at least one villager could pull off the reflex save sufficient, even if only be luck. Also, mechanically, this just means that you have to hit it with an AoO provoked when it attacks. Or prepare an action.

Not everything is D&D. If you wanted to put this in D&D terms then you would need to use another mechanic.

The point is, that there is little stopping a villager from doing it, other than luck.

If luck allows no more than a negligible chance of success, then luck is insufficient.

So the peasant puts the nail on a heavy pillar, pulls it up by pulley, and drops it on the ghost.

Maybe a peasant can do this, but any peasant crafty enough to set up a ghost trap is not a random villager.

Really? I bullshitted that ghost trap in about thirty seconds. While I'm certainly more than a peasant, at least one peasant would know how to do that, say, the guy who raises barns and uses pulleys literally every day. Or the blacksmith, who knows "I can't punch steel into shape, but I can use a hammer for weight and hardness, with my strength behind it to do so."

I'll give up on this one. There are probably plenty of ways to provide sufficient force on the nail, ranging from your mechanical device to simply attaching it to a staff.

Point. But also blatantly magical.

No more magical Frank's listed escape clauses ("can be punched in the sunlight", "can be punched if their fetters have been moved", "can be punched if you have a silver ring on", or whatever)

Again, it has phlebotinum behind it, thus it fails the test on first principles.

The phlebotinum belongs to the ghost not to the knight. Being a knight does not need to be any more magical than a ring being made out of silver needs to be magical.

Betcha the village strong guy would at least have a decent chance.

Any village strong guy who can perform a heroic act of endurance (wrestling all night with a tireless opponent) is not just some random villager.

Who said ghosts are strong? They're actually pretty weak, physically speaking. The village blacksmith could sit on it like an unruly kid until dawn. Also, who said you had to wrestle it? The rule is "can only be grasped at sunset, and only die at sunrise." Wrap a chain around it and build a fire. It can't escape the chain, and at sunrise it'll burn.

I reformulate the bar as ghosts are somewhat strong, and can only be grasped at the instant of sunset.
The village blacksmith does not have sufficient strength+endurance to grapple the ghost until dawn, and the chain cannot be used after the instant of sunset.

So rewrite the condition as "7. The ghost can only be touched by someone who coats himself in deadly contact poison. The peasant would drop dead if he tried."

Goalpost moving.

I altered the bar.

The epic of Gilgamesh originates from a time when history was oral. Saying that no one in the village can accomplish this feat is fucking retarded.

If no one in the knows the poem, then no one can recite it. But this bar basically requires a "magical" skill to bypass.

What magical skill? It requires "Know obscure poem" and "rote memory-obscure poem" and a language skill. Or just "rote memory-obscure poem in dead language."

If you see the skill as being non-magical, that's fine. In that case the peasants are unlikely to have "Know obscure poem" and "rote memory-obscure poem" and a language skill, so it meets my goal of a situation " in which some random NPC villager would not be able to punch the ghost and yet simultaneously a mundane PC can punch that ghost without having, knowing, using, being, or be aided by magic"

9:

So make the requirement that the ghost can only be harmed by some other type of weapon that no random peasant in the village is strong enough to wield.

Again, goalpost moving.

I altered the bar.

10:

I notice you said nothing about #10.

I think that bar number 10 is poorly set up, and feel no need to defend it.

[Chamomile]

You are going to find that quote hilarious in retrospect, and honestly it's a li'l weird now given that Daenerys goes through betrayals and stillbirths and stuff.

To clarify: Jon makes mistakes that are clearly shown to be dumb mistakes that come as a result of his character flaws. When he first shows up at the Wall, someone else has to talk some sense in him and get him to stop being a stupid jackass lording the skills he got for being raised as a noble over a bunch of peasants. Similarly, while he is definitely given a whole lot of credit, I mostly chalk that up to his having an enormously more solid foundation compared to the thieves and rapists who typically get chucked up to the Wall to die. He doesn't seem all that more exceptional than, say, Arya in the company of Gendry and Hot Pie.

Guess we'll see where he goes, though. While I do like him well enough, he's already one of my least favorite characters. It wouldn't take much to push me into a strong dislike of him. For example, I've been hoping for a while now that his mother turns out to be someone totally normal and Ned just didn't like to talk about her because of some personal thing to do with their relationship. Now I'm dreading that instead she'll be some super-special person that makes Jon secretly a Tagaryen and true heir to all of Westeros and also the world or something.

But I probably shouldn't talk about this any further until I catch up with the rest of the books.

[Stubbazubba]

I altered the bar.

Pray I don't alter it any further!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Username17]

It always seems like there should be some space for the guy whose talent is "being really smart", where their "superpower" is knowing all the monster's weaknesses so they can interact with them as if they weren't monsters (i.e., the ghost example continually used throughout this thread).

The problem with that is obvious: how the fuck does this work in a believable way at all? Is the rest of the world just holding the idiot ball or something? Does everyone forget that cold iron can cut ghosts or something unless one guy with their head on straight is continually reminding people of that fact? I feel like this character gets a lot of use in fiction and is "cool" (I mean, most monster movies work this way), but I'm not sure if its fundamentally usable at all while still making for a sensible world.

The "mentor" character who tells the other characters how to fight monsters is an important character in the Hero's Journey. More importantly still, it's a terribly important character for transmitting information to the audience. The knowledgeable character tells the other heroes what needs to be done to defeat the monster, and then the audience also knows that information. Then when the actual battle comes, it is clear to the audience why the silver sword works and the shotgun doesn't (or whatever).

In fiction, whenever a new monster shows up, one character has to tell another character how a monster is supposed to be defeated. Because that establishes the rules for the encounter for the audience. But that sort of thing works extremely poorly in an RPG unless the character giving the information is an NPC. Because if one player character gets to know and then tell this information the player first has to be told it by the MC at which point the other players have already heard the explanation and the entire narrative trope is pointless.

-Username17

[K]

It always seems like there should be some space for the guy whose talent is "being really smart", where their "superpower" is knowing all the monster's weaknesses so they can interact with them as if they weren't monsters (i.e., the ghost example continually used throughout this thread).

The problem with that is obvious: how the fuck does this work in a believable way at all? Is the rest of the world just holding the idiot ball or something? Does everyone forget that cold iron can cut ghosts or something unless one guy with their head on straight is continually reminding people of that fact? I feel like this character gets a lot of use in fiction and is "cool" (I mean, most monster movies work this way), but I'm not sure if its fundamentally usable at all while still making for a sensible world.

The "mentor" character who tells the other characters how to fight monsters is an important character in the Hero's Journey. More importantly still, it's a terribly important character for transmitting information to the audience. The knowledgeable character tells the other heroes what needs to be done to defeat the monster, and then the audience also knows that information. Then when the actual battle comes, it is clear to the audience why the silver sword works and the shotgun doesn't (or whatever).

In fiction, whenever a new monster shows up, one character has to tell another character how a monster is supposed to be defeated. Because that establishes the rules for the encounter for the audience. But that sort of thing works extremely poorly in an RPG unless the character giving the information is an NPC. Because if one player character gets to know and then tell this information the player first has to be told it by the MC at which point the other players have already heard the explanation and the entire narrative trope is pointless.

-Username17

It also doesn't work in an RPG with Monster Manuals. Other players simply knowing the monster's weakness because they read the MM ruins the whole trope of finding monster weaknesses if anyone might remember that entry.

Yet another reason to stick to no pre-set monsters. Build a monster creation system and make every monster a unique snowflake that is revealed by PC abilities. I mean, puzzle monsters only suck when the pregenerated monster the party faces is not killable by their organic character builds... it's not even an issue if monster weaknesses are not preset and can be generated when the PC uses his ability.

You could could even have varying levels of weakness. Everyone might know that vampires die in sunlight, but discovering that a particular vampire is burned by regular water can just be a hero ability.

[Emerald]

For all intents and purposes, Kaelik is actually right, there. (well, it's phlebotinum, but...)

No. Some technology might be magic, magic might be technology (if it's codified/structured enough much as in D&D), but technology isn't magic. You might be able to duplicate the effects of magic using technology, but that doesn't make the technology magic.

The mundane blacksmith has no problems making a sword using technology in an anti-magic field. The Wizard using magic can't make a sword using fabricate to replace technology in an anti-magic field. A fireball fails in an anti-magic field. A grenade works just fine.

And if you set off an EMP pulse over a modern factory it's going to have problems fabricating swords and grenade launchers, while a modern chemist and a medieval herbalist working inside the factory without using any electronics can both make their (al)chemical concoctions just fine. The existence of antimagic fields doesn't mean magic is somehow separate and special and technology is "everything else," it just means they're different kinds of "magic" with different underlying rules. Magic missiles are shut down by antimagic fields, laser-guided missiles are shut down by antitechnology fields (=EMPs), and sufficiently-primitive magic and technology (or advanced magic and tech that work on different principles, like psionics or EMP-hardened tech) can continue functioning in anti-X fields. The thing that separates magic from not-magic is, as someone mentioned, that magic isn't understood and works on different principles from known stuff, and to your average peasant both a magic missile and a rocket are magic.

The basic point, that "technology" magic is understood, internally-consistent, and usable by anyone with training while "handwavium" magic is mysterious, plot device-y, and reserved for heroes and villains, is the same whether your technology is swords and sorcery, guns and grenades, or phasers and photon torpedoes.

[DrPraetor]

So as a phlebtonium-free high-level character, we're discussing the validity of this guy?



In certain RPGs/story arcs, for example a Call of Cthulhu campaign where the party were all investigators who track an avatar of nyarlathotep while he wanders around murdering people in arcane ways, then Richard Grant's skill set - he knows that if you put witch blood in the compass it points to the witch, he knows that if you drive nails into the witches footprints he bleeds, etc. etc. - would be not only valid, it would be good enough to justify being an Anachronism as well!

But absolutely doesn't cut the mustard in D&D. It's cool as a minor side-schtick for rangers, and that's it. For that matter, in a world where everyone agrees that ghosts exist, it starts to strain credibility if only one of the heroes has the folklore to know they're harmed by iron.

[fectin]

Option three: Your character is not personally magic, but can interact with or affect magic.

That is not a third option, or an option at all. If you can affect magic, you are fucking magic, you fucking twat. That's what being magic is.

-Username17

If you hit a fireball in flight with a baseball bat, you affect where it detonates. You do not have to be "magic" to do so.

QED, motherfucker.

[Mistborn]

Option three: Your character is not personally magic, but can interact with or affect magic.

That is not a third option, or an option at all. If you can affect magic, you are fucking magic, you fucking twat. That's what being magic is.

-Username17

If you hit a fireball in flight with a baseball bat, you affect where it detonates. You do not have to be "magic" to do so.

QED, motherfucker.

Hitting a fireball in flight with a bat is on the same level as snatching an arrow. It's one of the blatantly superhuman feats that practically requires some kind of weeaboo fightan magic. Parrying a fireball is not a mundane act it's the action of a charles atlas superpower. (thus you charaters has superpowers just incredibly lame ones.)

[Niles]

Hitting a fireball in flight with a bat is on the same level as snatching an arrow. It's one of the blatantly superhuman feats that practically requires some kind of weeaboo fightan magic.

Search for "arrow catch" on Youtube.

Also Fuck you.

[Mistborn]

Search for "arrow catch" on Youtube.

Also Fuck you.

Such a thing is only possible under heavly controlled circumstances i. e. the guy firing the thing is on your side. We're also not talking about arrows we're talking about fucking magic. D&D fucking magic that has umblockable undodgeable attacks at level one.

Overall grade F.

See you in the fall semester Niles.

[Libertad]

Magic in D&D can interact with the physical world, and create all manner of stuff from Walls of Iron to monsters.

There's nothing wrong with having "mundanes" being capable of interacting with, or even disabling, magical effects, without it it being "magical."

Like Grek's ghost example.

[Previn]

Hitting a fireball in flight with a bat is on the same level as snatching an arrow. It's one of the blatantly superhuman feats that practically requires some kind of weeaboo fightan magic. Parrying a fireball is not a mundane act it's the action of a charles atlas superpower. (thus you charaters has superpowers just incredibly lame ones.)

I don't know. Seems like it's plausible.

[fectin]

Fireball creates a fine object, which streaks to its destination. A commoner can hit with a natural 20 (possibly other rolls), even with the penalty for small things. A commoner can ready actions, which explicitly can include attacking things when they move.
Therefore, a commoner can hit a fireball.

Not even a complex rules interaction.

[fectin]

Dupe.

[Prak]

This is also what allows the commoner to punch the "only incorporeal while striking" ghost.

[Chamomile]

And if a commoner picks up a rock, he can hit a flying opponent on a natural 20. Therefore flight is not a GTFO ability either, and we do not need to be particularly concerned about whether or not a Fighter can hit a flying enemy at the level when they become common.

[fectin]

Wrong thread. This thread is about not every element in a magic result needing to be individually magical, not about GTFO abilities.

But yes: commoners cannot fly, but can interact with flying creatures.