Verbs Vs. Nouns

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:24 pm

The point of this thread is: Can we make an Artificer that "feels" like a Fighter? I maintain that the more detail you give as to what exactly is happened when shit gets crafted, and the more the materials used feel mythological/medieval rather than renaissance/steampunk, the more likely you will be to convince people that an Artificer will do what they want to do.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:25 pm

CapnTthePirateG wrote:So until all the grognards who demand realistic fighters within the realms of normal human ability who can totally fight alongside guys who can stop time, animate legions of the walking dead, and rain down fire go away, we're stuck here.

Like I said sucking is the defining quality of the fighter.

From the point of view of someone actually trying to sell a game the best thing would be to bite the bullet and give them their horrible fighter class. Then very quietly write some non-terrible pretige classes for fighters to jump ship to if the want to not suck.

Chamomile wrote:Mistborn, your post is self-contradictory. You've literally said "people don't want to be a martial fighter who builds himself lots of cool gadgets, they want to be a martial fighter who builds himself lots of cool gadgets." Even if it weren't, fact stands that the premise of this thread was never even remotely about what "people" want, but rather what a specific subset of people here on the Den who like mundane flavor want.

>>2012
>>not understanding why you can't be Batman in D&D
>>ishygddt

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:15 pm

Every single one of those reasons are Bullshit Special Snowflake newage crap reasons. Every single one.

1) For this to be true, Hiro has to somehow get more strength than an average bully can. And this is stupid if Hiro is an agility based speed fighter with a love of rapiers.
2) It's too hot? What special ability does Hiro get that makes him resistant to fire.
3) So Hiro is actually a Shaman? or an Elementalist.. check
4) Why can village bully #8 not know that sword fighting style. How did Hiro learn it? What rules give him this special style.
5) Spirit of the true warrior? WHat does that even mean. So now you're evil pillaging bully bad guy can't use special swords why?
6) so the Efreeti steel sword has a smart-gun chip on it that limits how useful it is based on who it's attacking. Awesome. What if your True Warrior from earlier needs to defeat town guards.
7) THat's assuming Hiro didn't just give it to him, because Hiro decided he made more money building swords, without risking his life than if he went adventuring.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:58 pm

How about the classic, "gear which is incredibly difficult or expensive to obtain tends to be issued to highly qualified people even when it would also noticeably improve the performance of amateurs." I mean, hell, sometimes you do get artifact swords form nice old npc dwarves or something. But you gotta figure most people who go to the effort making a fire sword will want to keep it, and most third parties will also be more comfortable when the superweapon is in the hands of the guy who demonstrated enough competence to build it.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:17 am

Sabs, every single one of your responses boils down to "but I don't like that flavor baaaaaaaaaw" or else is simply idiotic. You don't think Hiro should get a fire resistance ability? Okay, whatever, get out of the thread, because the whole premise of it is that Hiro can have a fire resistance ability. Impressing efreeti with your martial prowess is a caster ability? What are you smoking?

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:49 am

I'm completely okay with Hiro getting a fire resistance ability. But huh.. how does he get a fire resistance ability? Just by being the most awesome cool guy ever? He's mundane right? No power source.. so how exactly did he get fire resistance to the point where he can forge a living efreet?

SO now you're saying. I think fighters should get fire resistance at some point. That's fine and dandy.. show me 1 fighter class in any roleplaying game that's gotten elemental resistances as part of leveling up?

Impressing an Efreeti is a form of elemental diplomacy. Elemental Diplomacy is 1/2 of what an Elementalist does.

You can't both say: Hiro is a mundane hero, with no magical power source
AND say: Hiro gets fire resistance, super human strength, and can interact with elementals, and.. and ...

Man up, and admit that eventually Hiro becomes super-human.
He's forging a blade out of living fire. He's not a regular human.

That doesn't make him a fighter.. because very few of the great fighters of mythology were craftsman who made their own shit. But at least you're getting somewhere.

I want fighters to rock. But I have no problems with their power source becoming weird and special along the way.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:14 pm

sabs wrote:I'm completely okay with Hiro getting a fire resistance ability. But huh.. how does he get a fire resistance ability? Just by being the most awesome cool guy ever? He's mundane right? No power source.. so how exactly did he get fire resistance to the point where he can forge a living efreet?

The problem here is that you have sunk into the mindset that there are only two possible options in a fantasy game: Magic, which has no rules and can do anything, and mundane which follows all the rules of the real world to the letter. This is not true to the mythic source material that D&D comes from. Great heroes are able to do crazy things all the time in stories without much in the way of explanation, and certainly without requiring a wizard to help them out. A fantasy game should just accept that to play with the big boys the warrior needs fantastic abilities and this is totally supported by the source material.

I think 4e had something with the Martial power source, although it would need to go much further. By explaining that after a certain number of levels a character is so removed from the normal capabilities of their race that they are now a mythic hero and can perform actions that are worthy of legends you would hopefully break down some of the bias against "mundane" powers from the GM side. I mean, if you are supposed to double in power every 2 levels then by level 11 you are the equivalent of 30 trained men! Gaining immunity to fire or the ability to leap over buildings doesn't seem like such a stretch.

sabs wrote:show me 1 fighter class in any roleplaying game that's gotten elemental resistances as part of leveling up?

Well this feat is available to all warriors of level 8 or higher, so I'd say that counts.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:26 pm

Orion wrote:The point of this thread is: Can we make an Artificer that "feels" like a Fighter? I maintain that the more detail you give as to what exactly is happened when shit gets crafted, and the more the materials used feel mythological/medieval rather than renaissance/steampunk, the more likely you will be to convince people that an Artificer will do what they want to do.

you can make anything feel more like a fighter, by taking away the toys of the other classes from it.

using terms is only refluffing it however, you would need mechanical changes to do anything real, since fluff is easily discarded by all.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:34 pm

Sabs, this is just semantic quibbling over what exactly "mundane" or "power source" means which nobody here is interested in discussing. It was established four or five pages ago that "mundane" means "Beowulf," who is strong as thirty men just because.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:38 pm

Chamomile wrote:Sabs, this is just semantic quibbling over what exactly "mundane" or "power source" means which nobody here is interested in discussing. It was established four or five pages ago that "mundane" means "Beowulf," who is strong as thirty men just because.

No it wasn't. It was established 5 pages ago that there are two types of people:

People who are not idiots.

People who think engaging in a shapechange battle is mundane, because they want so bad for fighter to be a viable character that they refuse to even recognize what is not mundane.

This thread was specifically made by one of the former, IE not you, and is primarily being discussed by the former, IE not you.

So guess what, in this thread, Beowulf is not mundane, because he has some power source, such as divine fate, since it is specifically a story about Christianity taking over anyway.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:27 pm

Red_Rob wrote:
sabs wrote:show me 1 fighter class in any roleplaying game that's gotten elemental resistances as part of leveling up?
Well this feat is available to all warriors of level 8 or higher, so I'd say that counts.

The feat that specifically says, "By channeling the power of nature" That feat? That's a general feat that anyone can take... That's the feat that makes Hiro the mundane hero able to do his craft firesword trick?

That feat has clearly the "Nature" Power source. It's not mundane by any stretch. I'm okay with that

it's actually kind of a cute feat. Although by level 8 being able to ignore 5 points of fire damage is.. yawn. I guess it's basically a permanent version of endure elements.

Beowulf is probably a scion of some sort. Not to mention Beowulf is at best level 10.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:28 pm

The requirement isn't level 8, it's base fort save of 8. So you get it at Fighter 12 or at Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Ranger 1/Monk 1.