Saving Throw Math
Moderator: Moderators
Saving Throw Math
So I've been diving into ever-more significant house rules for 3.X. As part of that, I've been thinking about ways to make saves work. Obviously, an important piece of information for making any actual pragmatic house rules for saves is knowing how high your saves need to be at any given level. I could work this out myself, but I'm pretty sure there's people here who already know this by heart, so you'd be saving me a lot of trouble if you could tell me how high saves should be at any given level.
-
RadiantPhoenix
- Prince
- Posts: 2668
- Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:33 pm
- Location: Trudging up the Hill
Well, let's see:
When you level up, you need to win an average of 13.333 encounters to level up again.
When you die and get Raise Dead, you need to win an average of 6.667 encounters to get reattain your prior level
P0 = your probability of surviving in an encounter
P1 = P0^13.333 is your probability of getting to the next level on your first try.
P2 = P0^6.667 * (1 - P1) = P0^6.667 - P0^20 is your probability of making a full loop.
P3 = 1 - P1 - P2 = 1 + P0^20 - P0^6.667 - P0^13.333 is your probability of making negative progress.
If P3 < P1, on average you will eventually make progress through levels, barring other concerns.
If P3 = P1, on average you will stand still, which means that noise will eventually drain your constitution to zero and kill you.
If P3 > P1, on average you will make no progress.
Assuming the party has to make a save-or-die every round, and assuming 5 round encounters, a character will face 1.25 save-or-dies each encounter, so:
P_s = probability of passing a save
P0 = P_s ^1.25
Assuming all save types are random
P_s = average(P(Fort),P(Ref),P(Will))
So you have a granularity of 1/60 for P_s, which, when I use my spreadsheet program, tells me that the sum of the numbers you need to get to pass (each of which has a minimum of 2 in 3.5, and a minimum of 1 regardless) is 7. An example would be if you passed on a 2/2/3.
If we go down to only one save-or-die per party per encounter, we get a limit on the total TN of 17, e.g. 5/6/6 or 2/2/13.
If we assume a typical save-or-die DC is 11 + level, then in the first paradigm you need saves of about 9+level and in the second you need about 5+level
EDIT: IF an average character must pass an average of 11 save-or-dies in 100 encounters, the required TNs can add up to 33, which yields 0+level for saves.
When you level up, you need to win an average of 13.333 encounters to level up again.
When you die and get Raise Dead, you need to win an average of 6.667 encounters to get reattain your prior level
P0 = your probability of surviving in an encounter
P1 = P0^13.333 is your probability of getting to the next level on your first try.
P2 = P0^6.667 * (1 - P1) = P0^6.667 - P0^20 is your probability of making a full loop.
P3 = 1 - P1 - P2 = 1 + P0^20 - P0^6.667 - P0^13.333 is your probability of making negative progress.
If P3 < P1, on average you will eventually make progress through levels, barring other concerns.
If P3 = P1, on average you will stand still, which means that noise will eventually drain your constitution to zero and kill you.
If P3 > P1, on average you will make no progress.
Assuming the party has to make a save-or-die every round, and assuming 5 round encounters, a character will face 1.25 save-or-dies each encounter, so:
P_s = probability of passing a save
P0 = P_s ^1.25
Assuming all save types are random
P_s = average(P(Fort),P(Ref),P(Will))
So you have a granularity of 1/60 for P_s, which, when I use my spreadsheet program, tells me that the sum of the numbers you need to get to pass (each of which has a minimum of 2 in 3.5, and a minimum of 1 regardless) is 7. An example would be if you passed on a 2/2/3.
If we go down to only one save-or-die per party per encounter, we get a limit on the total TN of 17, e.g. 5/6/6 or 2/2/13.
If we assume a typical save-or-die DC is 11 + level, then in the first paradigm you need saves of about 9+level and in the second you need about 5+level
EDIT: IF an average character must pass an average of 11 save-or-dies in 100 encounters, the required TNs can add up to 33, which yields 0+level for saves.
Last edited by RadiantPhoenix on Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Problem with that number-crunching is that 5/6/6 and 2/2/13 are equally preferable, but the wildly divergent saves in the second one are the reason why I want to fix the save system in the first place. What I want to know is whether assuming a typical save-or-die DC 11+level is a safe bet. Since a level 1 Wizard is going to have a save-or-die DC of something like 14 on his level 1 spells, I'm not sure if that's accurate. Unfortunately, I'm not really sure what I can count on the average stat boost to a casting stat can be, or if the Monster Manual's saves are about even with what a player's would be. That's the data I'm hoping to get from this, people who've played through the game often enough that they just know what the average save DC is for any given level.
Are we talking about player or monster saves?
Lets talk about a lvl 20 (because even though nobody plays at that level, it shows a problem). A lvl 20 wizard with greater spell focus and a paladin.
Wizard probably starts with 21 int (18 + 2 sub elf race or smt, +1 middle age), +6 headband, + 5 lvl up, +5 tomes = 37
lvl 9 spell: 10 + 9 + 13 + 2 (greater spell focus) = 34
Paladin 14 wis (since paladin needs other scores), +6 headband, +1 lvl up, +5 tomes = 26
Lvl 4 spell (paladin spells fuck yeah): 10 + 4 + 8 = 22
Difference of 12.
Lets talk about a lvl 20 (because even though nobody plays at that level, it shows a problem). A lvl 20 wizard with greater spell focus and a paladin.
Wizard probably starts with 21 int (18 + 2 sub elf race or smt, +1 middle age), +6 headband, + 5 lvl up, +5 tomes = 37
lvl 9 spell: 10 + 9 + 13 + 2 (greater spell focus) = 34
Paladin 14 wis (since paladin needs other scores), +6 headband, +1 lvl up, +5 tomes = 26
Lvl 4 spell (paladin spells fuck yeah): 10 + 4 + 8 = 22
Difference of 12.
Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.
-
RadiantPhoenix
- Prince
- Posts: 2668
- Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:33 pm
- Location: Trudging up the Hill
Recall that in Tome, the normal save DC is the monster save DC of 10 + 1/2 level + ATTRIBUTE
The normal save is 1d20 + 1/3 level + item (1/3 level) + ATTRIBUTE, which rises faster. This is necessary because the rate at which you are exposed to SoDs goes up with level. Good saves rise at an additional +1/6 level (+1/2 - +1/3).
The normal save is 1d20 + 1/3 level + item (1/3 level) + ATTRIBUTE, which rises faster. This is necessary because the rate at which you are exposed to SoDs goes up with level. Good saves rise at an additional +1/6 level (+1/2 - +1/3).
Part of the problem with the Paladin caster thing is that Paladin spellcasting is so terrible it may as well not exist. That said, I'm looking into reworking how saves work. As the game moves into higher levels, the gap between a good save and a bad one grows ever larger, a problem which is exacerbated when, like the Cleric, your good save shares a modifier with your one necessary stat. I'm hoping to shuffle the way saves work a bit to help with that, and to do that, I need to know how high a save needs to be before it can reliably pass the saves enemies will be throwing at your players on average.
Yeah, I've that issue as well, I eventually realized that Good saves =1/2HD +2, and Bad = 1/3 HD. Difficult to come up with a standard attribute for creatures, best I can think of, is to try and figure out attribute normally be for a character.
So 12th, maybe have like 14-16 in attributes that modify saves, so 14 base, +4 enchantment, +3 level (houserule where +1 to every stat every 4 lvs?), and maybe the +5 insight from the Manual/Tomes? = 21, or 26 w/tomes.
Thus +5 stat, +4 enchantment, +8 Good) or +4 (Bad) from Save progression, =+17 (Good Save Progression), or +13 (Bad Save progression)
Find out what want people to roll to succeed, if it's like an 8 or better, then it would be DC 21 to 25, pending if it's meant for Bad or Good saves. I realize, it'd be a +20/+16 if those tomes stat-ups are included, and the DC would need to be 28 or 24 respectively.
Course, I'm sure I made a mistake somewhere, but I guess that's my take (didn't really have the mind for understanding that fancy formula by RadiantPhoenix).
So 12th, maybe have like 14-16 in attributes that modify saves, so 14 base, +4 enchantment, +3 level (houserule where +1 to every stat every 4 lvs?), and maybe the +5 insight from the Manual/Tomes? = 21, or 26 w/tomes.
Thus +5 stat, +4 enchantment, +8 Good) or +4 (Bad) from Save progression, =+17 (Good Save Progression), or +13 (Bad Save progression)
Find out what want people to roll to succeed, if it's like an 8 or better, then it would be DC 21 to 25, pending if it's meant for Bad or Good saves. I realize, it'd be a +20/+16 if those tomes stat-ups are included, and the DC would need to be 28 or 24 respectively.
Course, I'm sure I made a mistake somewhere, but I guess that's my take (didn't really have the mind for understanding that fancy formula by RadiantPhoenix).
What I find wrong w/ 4th edition: "I want to stab dragons the size of a small keep with skin like supple adamantine and command over time and space to death with my longsword in head to head combat, but I want to be totally within realistic capabilities of a real human being!" --Caedrus mocking 4rries
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
-
RadiantPhoenix
- Prince
- Posts: 2668
- Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:33 pm
- Location: Trudging up the Hill
I can't actually solve my formula backwards, so what I do is make a spreadsheet that goes something like this:Aryxbez wrote:Course, I'm sure I made a mistake somewhere, but I guess that's my take (didn't really have the mind for understanding that fancy formula by RadiantPhoenix).
Where n is the number of SoDs per encounter
| {63..3} | = 1 - (col1 - 3)/60 | =P_s^n | =P0^(40/3) | =P0^(20/3) - P0^20 | = 1 - P1 - P2 | = P1 - P3 |
And I check to see when the last column changes from negative to positive.
Also, I screwed up before; add 1 to each of my target numbers in my first post.
I tried to do my own homebrew revisions at one point, including trying to make the numbers between the haves and the have-nots diverge less quickly. The solution I went with was to get rid of (very nearly) all of the bonuses to skills and saves and instead have those effects give out re-rolls (or related gimmicks). This made the numbers less divergent, making really skilled players reliable at being successful while still allowing untrained people to participate without having to pray for a natural 20; the same was true for making saves.
Last edited by Shatner on Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
RadiantPhoenix
- Prince
- Posts: 2668
- Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:33 pm
- Location: Trudging up the Hill
I follow you, and my revisions attempt to do just that. I have the rules included in the spoiler section below; feel free to use any, all, or none of it as it strikes you.RadiantPhoenix wrote:Well, what we want isn't actually for all characters to be on the RNG with each other, just for all characters at the same level to be on the RNG with each other and have the necessary consistency to survive.
Introductory Text for my Players wrote:DnD is ideally a game about character specializations and a revolving spotlight, so you want some divergence in the numbers; DimWit the Barbarian gets to look badass when he smashes through a door Cool-Aid Man Style and Swordy McSmiteEvil gets to smirk as he diplomances the party past the guards with his stirring rhetoric and shiny, shiny armor. However, you need to keep everyone numerically within reach of one another otherwise DimWit's player stacks dice until the party finishes talking and Swordy stays in the tavern when he learns the next dungeon crawl involves stealth. Since the roll to determine a skill attempt's success or failure only goes from 1 to 20, the bonuses a character has to their skills RELATIVE TO OTHER SIMILARLY LEVELED CHARACTERS needs to be no more than 20 better or worse than the others (and we should really strive to keep that range around 10). That way Swordy isn't expected to sneaky as well as the party rogue but he can at least show up wearing camo and not embarrass everyone, and the party is genuinely glad to have DimWit around because he actually does notice someone lying through their teeth about one time in four. As far as gratuitous bonuses go, the skill sub-system is among the worst offenders. So that stops. The number of bonuses given out to skills will get paired way, WAY down.
---Multi-classing Numeric Progression---
Under the DnD 3.x rules, the numeric progression of your base attack bonus (BAB) and saving throw bonuses advanced based on the individual classes you took. In other words, if you took a level of wizard and a level of sorcerer then you had the BAB and saves of a level 1 wizard wizard (+0 BAB, F/R/W of 0/0/2) added to the BAB and saves of a level 1 sorcerer (+0 BAB, F/R/W of 0/0/2) for a net of one terrible BAB, fort save and reflex save but one insane will save. This made multi-classing (including prestige classes) a really weird thing where you'd have 8th level characters with some numbers being reflective of a 3rd level character and others beating what a straight-classed 20th level character would have (my wizard/cleric/sorcerer/druid has the BAB of a goblin and the will save of a GOD). That needs to end.
So now each level advances you along a numeric progression track as relates to base attack bonus and each of the three saves. There are two tracks for each save: fast (2 + 1/2 round down like the fort save on a fighter) and slow (0 + 1/3 level round down like the will save on a fighter). All of the classes with a favored fort save (fighter, barbarian, cleric, druid, monk, etc.) advance you down the fast fort save track while all the classes with an unfavored fort save (wizard, rogue, sorcerer, etc.) advance you down the slow fort save track. Ditto for all the other saves. To determine your save, you look at your position on the slow track, look at your position on the fast track and add the bonuses together. So, a Fighter 2/Sorcerer 3/Cleric 1/Rogue 1 would have 3 levels of fast track fort save (fighter 2 + cleric 1) for a bonus of +3, a slow track fort save (sorcerer 3 + rogue 1) of +1 for a total fort save of 4. He would also have a reflex save of 4 (6 levels of slow-track reflex save, 1 level of fast-track reflex save) and a will save of 4 for a total F/R/W of 4/2/4. To put that in contrast, under the old style that same character would have a F/R/W of 6/3/5.
Level
1 2 3 4 5 6 7...
----------------------------------------------------------
Fast 2 3 3 4 4 5 5
Slow 0 0 1 1 1 2 2
In DnD there are three BAB tracks: 1/1 (fast, like a fighter), 2/3 (medium, like a cleric) and 1/2 (slow, like a wizard). Here you do the same thing, advancing along those tracks and adding the results together. If our Fighter 2/Sorcerer 3/Cleric 1/Rogue 1 then took a level of barbarian and then a level of Rogue, he would have done the following...
3 levels of fast (fighter 2 + barbarian 1) = +3
2 levels of medium (cleric 1 + rogue 1) = +1
3 levels of slow (sorcerer 3) = +1
...for a total BAB of +5. Under the old system they would have a BAB of +4.
Level
1 2 3 4 5 6 7...
------------------------------
----------------------------
Fast 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Medium 0 1 2 3 3 4 5
Slow 0 1 1 2 2 3 3
I have actually hewn to this particular house rule since my first major campaign way back in 2007; I've just never bothered to codify it. So I'm doing that now. The motivation behind this is to prevent polarized numeric progressions. The old multi-classing progression allowed for saving throws to occupy an enormous range (at level ten you could have a character with a base saving throw bonus of +0 for one save and a +20 for another... that's the entire random number generator for saving throws!), making some high level saves impossible to succeed against for some and impossible to fail against for others. That's bad. Furthermore, it could do nothing but penalize base attack bonuses, causing further success/failure extremes. So in an effort to keep the math on the rails, to not overly penalize a player who wanted to multi-class in a non-synergistic way, and to not overly incentive a player who wanted to multi-class for munchkiny reasons I am making these changes.
If it helps you think about it better, you can pretend your Cleric 3/Monk 2 (or what-have-you) effectively took 5 levels of monk when determining their BAB, fort save and will save (since those are all on the same tracks) and effectively took 2 levels of monk and 3 levels of cleric for determining their reflex save (since those are on separate tracks). That's what I do.
---Skill Revisions - an Explanation---
Now we start to get into the meat of the revisions I've come up with. Before I actually explain what I mean by re-rolls, let me tell you a thing or two about 3.X DnD. Third Edition has a problem with bonuses. It's a junkie. It just can't get enough bonuses. Racial bonuses, circumstance bonuses, attribute bonuses, inherent bonuses, profane bonuses, dodge bonuses, synergy bonuses, even nameless bonuses. And they all stack. This causes problems, especially at the higher levels. However, it's not just an issue with equipment, wherein a high level character can afford to load themselves up with a mask of bluffing, a potion of glibness, a snake's tongue amulet, a serpent familiar and +4 underwear of deceit so their bluff check is several times larger than what anyone else could overcome... even without equipment, it is entirely feasible for a mid level character to have a combined bonus of +20 or higher in some skill and another character still have a +0... or lower. As I said before, that's bad.
DnD is ideally a game about character specializations and a revolving spotlight, so you want some divergence in the numbers; DimWit the Barbarian gets to look badass when he smashes through a door Cool-Aid Man Style and Swordy McSmiteEvil gets to smirk as he diplomances the party past the guards with his stirring rhetoric and shiny, shiny armor. However, you need to keep everyone numerically within reach of one another otherwise DimWit's player stacks dice until the party finishes talking and Swordy stays in the tavern when he learns the next dungeon crawl involves stealth. Since the roll to determine a skill attempt's success or failure only goes from 1 to 20, the bonuses a character has to their skills RELATIVE TO OTHER SIMILARLY LEVELED CHARACTERS needs to be no more than 20 better or worse than the others (and we should really strive to keep that range around 10). That way Swordy isn't expected to sneaky as well as the party rogue but he can at least show up wearing camo and not embarrass everyone, and the party is genuinely glad to have DimWit around because he actually does notice someone lying through their teeth about one time in four. As far as gratuitous bonuses go, the skill sub-system is among the worst offenders. So that stops. The number of bonuses given out to skills will get paired way, WAY down.
---Re-Rolls---
So, fewer skill bonuses. Okay. If that's the case, what benefit do you actually get when you wear camo and are hiding or have on boots of Superior Leaping and are trying to jump from one rooftop to another? One answer is... re-rolls. One way to represent a really skilled character who gets performance-enhancing equipment is to allow them to roll one or more extra dice and choose the result they want. So Swordy McSmiteEvil gets Robes of the Diplomat. They allow him to, once per session, re-roll his diplomacy check. This means he rolls a d20 and adds his bonus to diplomacy, is dissatisfied with the result and uses his robe's power to roll another d20 and choose whichever one he wants. In contrast to unmitigated bonus accumulation, re-rolls allow for consistent success (which is good) without resulting in guaranteed success (which is bad). More of the particulars concerning re-rolls will be explored in subsequent sections but I wanted to introduce them here because they really are one of the fundamental changes I am introducing with these revisions.
Whenever you use a re-roll of any kind you will roll an identical number of the same kinds of dice as the first roll and then choose between the results. If you are still not satisfied with the results and you have re-rolls remaining, you may do additional re-rolls until you get a number you like or run out of re-rolls. Let's say a strong rogue (+3 strength mod) sneak attacks (+4d6 sneak attack damage) with a longsword (1d8 weapon damage). He would roll 4d6 + 1d8 and add 3 to the result to see how much damage he did (for example, say he rolled a total of 8 on their 4d6 and 5 on their 1d8 for a total of 8 + 5 + 3 = 16). If he used a general re-roll for his attack's damage, he would roll another set of 4d6 + 1d8 and add 3 to that result as well (say he rolled 16 on the 4d6 and 2 on their 1d8 for a total of 16 + 2 + 3 = 21). The rogue could then choose between the original 16, the new 21 (note that he can't mix-and-match the numbers between the rolls) or choose to use another general re-roll if he had one.
So, under the new rules, each character will start each session with one general re-roll and one skill re-roll. Certain feats, equipment, class skills and racial bonuses will grant additional re-rolls (for example, instead of an halflings getting a +1 luck bonus to all saves, they now get one general re-roll per session which can only be used to re-roll a saving throw). Skill re-rolls can, as the name implies, only be used to re-roll skill attempts. Skill re-rolls will be fairly common as far as re-rolls go, but general re-rolls will be much rarer. That's because general re-rolls can be used to re-roll anything: saving throws, attack rolls, skill checks (if you are out of skill re-rolls) or even damage rolls.
All re-rolls are refreshed at the start of a session and unused re-rolls are lost at the end of a session. I'm favoring a "per session" usage over the more typical "X times per day" mechanic because re-rolls represent a meta ability that heroes have. This is their ability to overcome steep odds and get by with determination, grit and luck. And the pacing by which a party needs heroic luck has little-to-no basis on the passage of in-game time and everything to do with the passage of in-session time. The amount of in-game time a session represents is very meta in that one session might cover a span of in-game hours if the scene is particularly tense (pitched combat, tense negotiations or a particularly fraught escape, to name a few examples) while another session might cover multiple days, weeks or even months if it's just a DM monologue or a travel montage. Put another way, if the four of us agree to dedicate 4+ hours to a session of DnD, your characters are going to have an adventure, otherwise we'd have been better off playing board games or throwing a frisbee around. It doesn't matter if your characters were about to square off against a draco-lich or if they just walked into a tavern to hear the local gossip; heroic shit is going to happen and the need to not fail during said heroics begins and ends with the session.
---USE: Untrained, Skilled, Expert---
In regular 3rd ed. a character could have as many ranks in a skill as their level + 3. They would then add their ability modifier and any other bonuses (oh so many bonuses) to those ranks to determine their skill bonus when attempting a skill. Then they'd roll a d20, add their skill bonus to that and see if it met or exceeded whatever the DC (difficulty challenge) was for that skill check. If they did, they were successful; if not, their attempt was a failure. Let's say you were a halfling cleric with an int-mod of +1. You got 2 (base ranks for being a cleric) + 1 (your intelligence modifier) in skill ranks each level, for a total of 3. Most of the time that meant you had three skills you had max ranks in (in this case, say knowledge: religion, spellcraft and healing). So, for those three skills you were an expert and at everything else you were a newb. Now at low level, having a high dex or racial bonus meant you could sneak almost as well as the guy you had max ranks in hide and move silently. At higher levels, this was absolutely not the case. Not cool. So, that entire way of doing things is being replaced with the USE system.
When a character is created they start out unskilled in all skills. Every time they level up they get one skill upgrade they can use for any skill and one or more skill upgrades they can use on their class skills (a cleric, for example, would get one skill upgrade while a rogue would get two). These upgrades can be used to, well, upgrade a character from (U)ntrained to (S)killed, or from (S)killed to (E)xpert. You can't go any higher than Expert and your skill level only goes down if you get level drained or were getting boosts from temporary sources (like spells or equipment). Most of the bonuses in the game have been converted to skill upgrades and/or re-rolls. For example, elves start out with a skill upgrade to spot, listen and search instead the old +2 bonus to each. This makes even the lowliest 1st level, elven commoner as skilled at spotting stuff (for their level) as a skilled 1st level human guard. Elves need to invest less to become experts but, and this is important, the greatest elven look-out is on par with the greatest human look-out. That's because anyone described as "the greatest ____" is going to be a hero and it's important that the heights of success someone can accomplish be limited by their level, not their race/class combination, because that's the entire point to playing a leveled role-playing game where players are free to multi-class.
Whenever you use a re-roll on a skill check, you get a +3 re-roll bonus to the result you choose. Always. No matter what your skill level is, nor what kind of re-roll you used (general vs skill).
When an Untrained character attempts a skill check, they roll a d20 and add half their level to the roll (rounded down) to determine their skill bonus. That's it. No synergy bonuses, racial bonuses, your-mom bonuses, etc. Your not even adding your attribute modifier. Just d20 + 1/2 level. An unskilled character is not allowed to use a skill re-roll if they don't like the result; they'd have to use a precious general re-roll instead. However, if they do re-roll they get the +3 re-roll bonus to the result they choose. Example: a 5th level DimWit the Barbarian attempts an unskilled bluff check. He rolls a d20 (gets a 9) and adds half his level (+2). If he doesn't like his 11 then he'd have to spend a general re-roll to change it, but he would get a +3 to whichever result he chose.
When a Skilled character attempts a skill check, they roll a d20 and add their level to the roll to determine the skill bonus. They are allowed to use skill re-rolls if they don't like the result. If they use a re-roll of any kind, they get an extra +3 re-roll bonus to the result they choose. Example: DimWit attempts a jump check and needs a result of 15 to succeed. He rolls a d20 (gets a 8) and adds his level (+5). He doesn't like the 13 he got so he uses a skill re-roll. He rolls another d20 and gets a 4. Since he used a re-roll, he'll get an extra +3 bonus to the result. His options are his original 13, or the new 9. He chooses the 13 and, with the +3 re-roll bonus he got, gets a result of 16 allowing him to succeed at his jump check.
When an Expert character attempts a skill check, they roll a d20, add their level and add an extra +3 expert bonus to their result. If the d20 was less than a 10, they are considered to have rolled a 10 instead. They are allowed to use skill re-rolls if they don't like the result. If they use a re-roll of any kind, they get an extra +3 re-roll bonus to the result they choose. DimWit is an expert at the survival skill. He attempts to hunt up food for the party while in the wilderness (DC 16 since it is himself and three other party members). He rolls a d20 (gets a 2, but is considered a 10), adds his level (+5) and the +3 expert bonus for a result of 18. If he for some reason wanted to, he could use a re-roll and gotten the additional +3 re-roll bonus to whichever result he chose.
You'll notice in this last example, it was impossible for DimWit to fail that check. This last example shows another reason I'm switching to the USE system: there are some checks which aren't worth being able to fail. At 5th level the party is suppose to be able to pull through against Huge Earth Elementals, Stone Giants or an evil Wizard guarded by a pair of hellcats. At that level, it should be assumed that DimWit can pick enough berries and hunt enough rabbits to feed the party while they trek across some generic, medieval hinterland. Under the normal system, no matter how easy or trivial the task, you can always fail (sometimes rolling something low, like a 5, is enough to cause failure but no matter what there is always rolling the dreaded natural 1). There are lots of occasions in DnD when the awesome character can fail at their awesome skill and, while this does add unpredictability to the game, it can often times derail a good scene. Now, it is important that the characters face the threat of failure for important tasks, otherwise the adventure lacks suspense. However, it is not important that the characters face the threat of failure for unimportant tasks. 3rd ed. does recognize this with the "Take 10" and "Take 20" system, but I want to take it a step further. So an expert is guaranteed success against modest tasks for their level. At the very least, they're guaranteed to not fail spectacularly. They are, after all, an expert.
Numerically, a character at Xth level who is an expert at some skill has the exact same bonus (X + 3) as a normal 3rd ed. character who has max ranks in a skill (level + 3). The only way they can get that bonus higher is to use a re-roll (getting them another +3) and hope to roll higher. Also, a character at Xth level who is unskilled has roughly the same bonus (X/2 rounded down) as a normal 3rd ed. character who has max ranks in a cross-class skill ((level + 3)/2). At 10th level, everyone will have at least a +5 bonus to all skill attempts; that's more than most 3rd ed. characters have when they are working outside their specialty. This means that the best an expert at Xth level can hope to roll on a skill check is 20 + X + 6; the best that an unskilled character at Xth level can hope to roll on a skill check is 20 + X/2. This means that even at 20th level, the difference between absolute mastery and absolute incompetence RELATIVE TO OTHER SIMILARLY LEVELED CHARACTERS is less than 20 (max bonus of 20 + 6 = 26, min bonus of 10, difference of 16) meaning that each character has a chance to contribute at every task at every level because they can always roll an 17 or better while their opponent rolls a 4 or worse. At 20th level, that's a 4% chance of an upset; much better than the 0.25% chance of an upset you get from normal 3rd edition.
Unskilled
+ it's just d20 + level/2 (round down)
+ can only use general re-rolls (with additional +3 re-roll bonus)
Skilled
+ d20 + level
+ can use skill re-rolls (with an additional +3 re-roll bonus)
Expert
+ max(d20, 10) + level + 3 expert bonus
+ can use skill re-rolls (with an additional +3 re-roll bonus)
---Changes to Ability Modifiers---
You'll notice that ability modifiers have been removed from skill rolls (i.e. you no longer add your charisma mod to your bluff check). That was a very, very hard decision to make but it needed to happen to keep the numbers from diverging too much. However, this has the side effect of making ability modifiers less important... in fact, charisma is used for nothing BUT skill checks unless you have a class-specific power (like a paladin's Divine Grace, or a sorcerer's spell casting). So, I'm making some changes to the ability modifiers to make them more useful in this brave new revision.
The party's combined ability modifiers will be averaged to determine the average bonus (hereafter referred to as the AMA or ability modifier average) the party would be receiving to their skill checks if they weren't using the USE system. The AMA will be used as a penalty for determining the skills of monsters out of the Monster Manual. In effect, the party will be suffering a penalty equal to the AMA whenever they make skill rolls so it balances out the math by applying the same penalty to the opposition. This way I don't have to go in and convert all the skills for all the monsters in the MM, something I'm glad of.
++Physical Stats++
No general changes, read below for specifics...
Strength: Str has plenty of job security; after all it determines how hard you hit something in a game that is primarily about hitting monsters repeatedly until they let you take their stuff. Strength is not changed: your strength mod is added to melee damage, melee to-hit, thrown weapon damage, many advanced combat maneuvers (grappling, tripping, etc.) and used to determine your carrying capacity.
Dexterity: Dex, even more-so than Str, has plenty going for it so it is unchanged: your dex mod is added to ranged to-hit, armor class, initiative and reflex saves.
Constitution: Con has always been prized but narrow in it's application. Everyone wants a better fort save and more hit points. Plus, it only applied to the concentration skill so removing it from skill bonuses has pretty minimal effect. However now your con mod gets added (even if negative) to the amount of health you regain each night from rest, for a minimum of 1hp. As such, a 3rd level character with a con mod of +2 would gain 5 hp per night of rest, 10 hp per day of rest and twice those numbers when cared for by a healer. A 2nd level character with a con modifier of -2 would gain 1 hp per night of rest, 2hp per day of rest and so on because they can't gain less than 1 hp per night. This last tweak is just to prop up an otherwise underwhelming mechanic (natural healing).
++Mental Stats++
All mental stats give you one skill re-roll per session equal to half your ability modifier, if positive (round up). However, these skill re-rolls can only be applied to skills which are associated with that attribute (such as bluff being associated with charisma, spot being associated with spot and spellcraft being associated with intelligence). Therefore, a character with an int mod of +1, a cha mod of +2 and a wis mod of -1 would get 1 extra intelligence related skill re-roll per session (1/2 round up), 1 extra charisma re-roll (2/2 round up) and 0 extra wisdom re-rolls (since a negative modifier doesn't count against you).
Intelligence: Int used to determine your number of starting languages and the number of skill ranks you got each level. It still determines the number of bonus languages you start with but clearly the skill ranks thing is out because we aren't using skill ranks anymore. Instead, when your character is created, you get one additional skill upgrade per point of your int mod (or less if your int mod is negative). For each point your int mod increases between leveling you gain one additional skill upgrade. Also, you get skill re-rolls equal to half your intelligence modifier (round up), usable only for intelligence-related skills.
Wisdom: Wis is used as a bonus to your will-save, which makes it pretty important on it's own. Which is good because that's all it does. Other than get skill re-rolls equal to half your wisdom modifier (round up), usable only for wisdom-related skills.
Charisma: Cha has it rough with this change. It isn't used for anything at all except skill bonuses which has made it the dump-stat of choice for characters for years. In an effort to give it something to do, I am making it so that you can use your cha mod in place of your wis mod for will saves. After all, your will save is meant to represent your strength of self and force of personality so I'm cool having meditative monks (high wisdom) and ego-powered sorcerers (high charisma) both able to shrug off enchantments. Also, you get skill re-rolls equal to half your charisma modifier (round up), usable only for charisma-related skills.
Note that when creating characters, we will be using the usual "4d6 drop the lowest" to generate a stat array. Any stat array with a net bonus of less than +2 can be re-rolled (when you add all the modifiers up, if the sum is less than a +2 than you can scrap that array and start over). Each player will generate a stat array and then each player can pick any of the stat arrays created (so if Larcy got the array 12/9/12/16/15/13 and Jacob got the array 8/11/12/18/18/8, both Jacob and Larcy could choose to use the numbers from Jacob's array if they wanted to).
---Changes to skill boosting items and spells---
As part of my campaign of numeric responsibility, I'm changing the nature of skill boosting items and spells. It's a pretty simple change, in part because I'm keeping things vague. Instead of something offering a +2 to this or a +10 to that, it will instead increase your rank in that skill by one or more steps (taking you from U -> S -> E). For every step beyond Expert an item or spell would take you, you instead gain one skill re-roll per session that can only be used for that skill. Spells which give out insane bonuses (invisibility to hide, glibness to bluff) will be altered as well. Now, there are a hell of a lot of skill boosting spells and items out there so I'm just going to hand wave this and say that I will translate those from 3.5 rules to revised rules as needed. However, to give you a feel for what I'm talking about, here are a few examples:
Boots of Elvenkind - OLD VERSION
These soft boots enable the wearer to move quietly in virtually any surroundings, granting a +5 competence bonus on Move Silently checks.
Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be an elf; Price 2,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Boots of Elvenkind - NEW VERSION
These soft boots enable the wearer to move quietly in virtually any surroundings, granting a skill upgrade to Move Silently. If the wearer already has a rank of Expert at Move Silently then they instead get one extra skill re-roll per session that can only be used when using the Move Silently skill. This re-roll is lost if the boots are removed. If the re-roll has been used, another re-roll isn't gained if the wearer puts on a different pair of Boots of Elvenkind.
Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be an elf; Price 2,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Jump - OLD VERSION
Transmutation
Level: Drd 1, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes
The subject gets a +10 enhancement bonus on Jump checks. The enhancement bonus increases to +20 at caster level 5th, and to +30 (the maximum) at caster level 9th.
Material Component
A grasshopper’s hind leg, which you break when the spell is cast.
Jump - NEW VERSION
Transmutation
Level: Drd 1, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes
The subject gets one skill upgrade to jump. This increases to two upgrades at caster level 5th, and to three (the maximum) at caster level 9th. For each step beyond Expert this would take the subject, they get one extra skill re-roll that can only be used when making jump checks. These re-rolls vanish at the end of the spell's duration.
Material Component
A grasshopper’s hind leg, which you break when the spell is cast.
Invisibility: Consider the following a revision to the hide skill definition... no more +40 to hide checks. While under this effect, you are automatically considered to have rolled a 20 during all hide skill attempts against all enemies who would rely on sight to detect you. You must roll normally against enemies which use other means (tremor sense, scent, etc.) of detection.
Glibness: Your speech becomes fluent and more believable. You are automatically considered to have rolled a 20 during all Bluff checks made to convince another of the truth of your words. (This bonus doesn’t apply to other uses of the Bluff skill, such as feinting in combat, creating a diversion to hide, or communicating a hidden message via innuendo.)
If a magical effect is used against you that would detect your lies or force you to speak the truth the user of the effect must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 15 + your caster level to succeed. Failure means the effect does not detect your lies or force you to speak only the truth.
---Changes to a few of the skills---
First, skill synergies are gone. However, if you are at least Skilled in a knowledge skill then you gain one re-roll per session which can only be used for the skill it used to grant synergy to (e.g. so a diplomacy re-roll with knowledge: nobility).
There is no more Skill Focus feat and no more generic "+2 to two skills" feats. All of those are replaced by the following:
Skillful [General]
Benefit: you gain two skill upgrades. Both can be applied to the same skill or split between two different skills.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times.
And then there are the changes to some of the skills themselves; namely speak languages and craft (which is being turned into two 2-part skills).
Speak Language
U: like normal
S: you get a number of bonus language slots equal to your level. You may fill one for free every time you level. Also, once per session you can fill another slot with any language you are exposed to.
E: you get three additional bonus language slots. You may fill in any unfilled bonus language slots as a free action. You get one additional skill re-roll per session which can be used for bluff, diplomacy, decipher script or forgery in any language you know. Note that skill re-rolls can't be used for a skill you are untrained in.
NOTE: characters in this campaign are not literate by default. To attain literacy, a character must spend one bonus language slot on "Literacy" as though it were a separate language. The only ways to gain bonus language slots is through a high intelligence modifier or through skill upgrades for the Speak Language skill.
Craft (Alchemy/Poison)
U: you may not attempt to craft either poisonous or alchemical substances unskilled.
S: pick Alchemy or Poison. You can attempt to craft substances of that sort (see PHB and DMG for details) and gain the usual benefits of being skilled (re-rolls, full level bonus)
E: You can attempt to craft both poisonous and alchemical substances and gain the usual benefits of being an expert (+3 bonus, minimum result)
Craft (Combat Equipment/Non-Combat Equipment)
U: you may attempt to craft equipment unskilled but you can not create items of masterwork quality and the cost of creating the item is tripled.
S: pick Combat or Non-Combat equipment. You can attempt to create equipment of that sort of any quality level (see PHB and DMG for details) and gain the usual benefits of being skilled (re-rolls, full level bonus)
E: You can attempt to craft both types of equipment and gain the usual benefits of being an expert (+3 bonus, minimum result)
---New leveling Mechanic (ELO)---
So, in regular DnD your character runs around fighting stuff, swinging from chandeliers, sneaking into crypts and otherwise gaining XP. Then, like something out of Order of the Stick, they level up and gain access to a host of new skills and powers they previously didn’t possess. That seems a little incongruous to me. I mean, sure the game hand waves this away claiming that your 2nd level fighter was practicing their sneaking and lock picking before you explicitly spent that 3rd level on rogue, but it’s still an all-or-nothing progression. If our 2nd level proto-rogue was faced with a locked door, he's still SOL even though he was “secretly practicing all along”. I turn now to Mr. Burlew for further illustrating my point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html).
So several changes are in order. First off; no more XP. That sounds like a big deal but it really isn’t. XP is only used for determining how close you are to leveling as well as used as a way to disincentive certain casting spells (XP material component) or creating magic items (1/25 gp cost in XP). However, I haven’t had XP costs in more than two campaigns and haven’t missed them. Anyway, characters will now gain a new level once they have received three advancement points and characters usually get one advancement point at the end of each session. So, if your character starts at 1st level, they will be 2nd level by the end of the 3rd session, 3rd by the end of the 6th and so on. If a session is particularly impressive or difficult, the party might earn more than the typical number of advancement points. Likewise, if the session is really just laying the groundwork for adventure rather than actually adventuring then that session’s advancement point might be deferred until later.
It might seem odd that the PCs would be leveling up on a pretty regular schedule but that's pretty much how the math of challenge ratings and XP gain works out, just with waaaay more accounting. I even went and looked over my old post-mortems and you guys were leveling once every 2-4 sessions, averaging about one level every 3. As such, this isn't as disruptive a change as it might initially seem.
This next part is probably my favorite rule revision of all. Every session, each character will have one Early Leveling Opportunity (ELO). An ELO allows a character to spontaneously gain one of the things they would gain from their next level. With an ELO a monk could gain another fighting style early, a wizard could gain access to a higher level spell sooner than normal, or a multi-classing character could express their diversifying talents on their way to leveling up. Even more interestingly, it allows characters to grow their skills organically; if the party suddenly finds itself needing someone who can speak orcish or disarm a dread knight or craft a disguise, one or more party members can use their ELOs to claim to have just the talent needed in the nick of time... you know, like what happens all the time in actual fantasy stories. Furthermore, it would allow the characters to more closely reflect their adventure; many of you took ranks in sense motive after Kobin Hammerite played you guys like a cheap fiddle and that’s way more memorable than just maximizing your ranks in hide because your character is a sneak; those ranks in sense motive had a story behind them and that's awesome!
Before I go any further, here's the ELO mechanics all spelled out:
An early level opportunity (ELO) can be used at any time (even reactively during another player's turn) during a session; though the DM may require the ELO to somehow be relevant (suddenly gaining Whirlwind Attack while surrounded, skill upgrades in Bluff while lying, etc.)
If this is the first ELO you have used for this level, you choose which class you are going to next level up in. You then choose one of the following:
1) all the weapon, armor and shield proficiencies in addition to the hp, base save and base attack progression you would gain from that level.
2) all the skill training you would gain from that level (both from the class and the one skill upgrade you get every level)
3) any one class feature you would gain from that level
4) the 1 feat you would gain if you are going to reach a 3rd level (3rd, 6th, 9th, etc.)
5) If none of the above options are relevant, you may gain one additional general and skill re-roll for this session.
If you didn't choose option 5, you gain one general re-roll which must be used as soon as possible and can only be used in a way which is related to the benefit you gained from the ELO.
For example, if a character gained the feat Improved Initiative from their ELO, they would gain an general re-roll which they must use the next time they roll for initiative.
Other examples for the above options are:
1) a re-roll on the attack or damage for a weapon you just gained proficiency in
2) a re-roll for one of the skills you just upgraded
3) a re-roll related to the class feature you just gained
4) a re-roll for one attack roll or saving throw if your base attack bonus or saves improved
5) a re-roll related to the feat you just gained
As example, let's say you have a 2nd level fighter, Bob, who has been imprisoned. Bob's player hasn't decided what class he wants to level Bob up in next so he decides the next class is going to be rogue. Bob's player announces he is using his ELO for this session and that Bob is gaining the skill upgrades he would gain from being a 3rd level character with 1 level in rogue (this gets him 2 skill upgrades for rogue class-skills and 1 skill upgrade for the skill of his choice). Bob suddenly becomes skilled in open lock, escape artist and hide. He also gains a skill re-roll for one of those three skills. Bob uses his new rogue skills to escape his imprisonment and now has a more memorable multi-classing story than just "yeah, I took a 3rd level of rogue for the sneak attack damage and reflex save". In the next session, Bob could gain the sneak attack class ability just as he's about to ambush a foe, gain the feat he would get when he hit 3rd level, and so on.
Needless to say, once your character actually levels up you don't get any bonuses or class features twice (so if Bob got +1d6 sneak attack from an ELO, that will NOT turn into +2d6 sneak attack when he actually gets that 1st complete level of rogue). You're merely getting earlier abilities, not more abilities.
I think this will add a lot of fun to each session because each session your character will have a mini-level up to play with plus a re-roll to ensure your new toy works when you first take it out of the box. Also, I sincerely hope this will encourage the party's character development to be more heavily influenced by the particulars of the sessions. DnD is a cooperative narrative wherein 2 or more players control one dude each and one player controls everyone else; PCs should help sculpt the shape of the narrative and the narrative should help sculpt the shape of the PCs.
At least, that's the dream...
Under the DnD 3.x rules, the numeric progression of your base attack bonus (BAB) and saving throw bonuses advanced based on the individual classes you took. In other words, if you took a level of wizard and a level of sorcerer then you had the BAB and saves of a level 1 wizard wizard (+0 BAB, F/R/W of 0/0/2) added to the BAB and saves of a level 1 sorcerer (+0 BAB, F/R/W of 0/0/2) for a net of one terrible BAB, fort save and reflex save but one insane will save. This made multi-classing (including prestige classes) a really weird thing where you'd have 8th level characters with some numbers being reflective of a 3rd level character and others beating what a straight-classed 20th level character would have (my wizard/cleric/sorcerer/druid has the BAB of a goblin and the will save of a GOD). That needs to end.
So now each level advances you along a numeric progression track as relates to base attack bonus and each of the three saves. There are two tracks for each save: fast (2 + 1/2 round down like the fort save on a fighter) and slow (0 + 1/3 level round down like the will save on a fighter). All of the classes with a favored fort save (fighter, barbarian, cleric, druid, monk, etc.) advance you down the fast fort save track while all the classes with an unfavored fort save (wizard, rogue, sorcerer, etc.) advance you down the slow fort save track. Ditto for all the other saves. To determine your save, you look at your position on the slow track, look at your position on the fast track and add the bonuses together. So, a Fighter 2/Sorcerer 3/Cleric 1/Rogue 1 would have 3 levels of fast track fort save (fighter 2 + cleric 1) for a bonus of +3, a slow track fort save (sorcerer 3 + rogue 1) of +1 for a total fort save of 4. He would also have a reflex save of 4 (6 levels of slow-track reflex save, 1 level of fast-track reflex save) and a will save of 4 for a total F/R/W of 4/2/4. To put that in contrast, under the old style that same character would have a F/R/W of 6/3/5.
Level
1 2 3 4 5 6 7...
----------------------------------------------------------
Fast 2 3 3 4 4 5 5
Slow 0 0 1 1 1 2 2
In DnD there are three BAB tracks: 1/1 (fast, like a fighter), 2/3 (medium, like a cleric) and 1/2 (slow, like a wizard). Here you do the same thing, advancing along those tracks and adding the results together. If our Fighter 2/Sorcerer 3/Cleric 1/Rogue 1 then took a level of barbarian and then a level of Rogue, he would have done the following...
3 levels of fast (fighter 2 + barbarian 1) = +3
2 levels of medium (cleric 1 + rogue 1) = +1
3 levels of slow (sorcerer 3) = +1
...for a total BAB of +5. Under the old system they would have a BAB of +4.
Level
1 2 3 4 5 6 7...
------------------------------
----------------------------
Fast 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Medium 0 1 2 3 3 4 5
Slow 0 1 1 2 2 3 3
I have actually hewn to this particular house rule since my first major campaign way back in 2007; I've just never bothered to codify it. So I'm doing that now. The motivation behind this is to prevent polarized numeric progressions. The old multi-classing progression allowed for saving throws to occupy an enormous range (at level ten you could have a character with a base saving throw bonus of +0 for one save and a +20 for another... that's the entire random number generator for saving throws!), making some high level saves impossible to succeed against for some and impossible to fail against for others. That's bad. Furthermore, it could do nothing but penalize base attack bonuses, causing further success/failure extremes. So in an effort to keep the math on the rails, to not overly penalize a player who wanted to multi-class in a non-synergistic way, and to not overly incentive a player who wanted to multi-class for munchkiny reasons I am making these changes.
If it helps you think about it better, you can pretend your Cleric 3/Monk 2 (or what-have-you) effectively took 5 levels of monk when determining their BAB, fort save and will save (since those are all on the same tracks) and effectively took 2 levels of monk and 3 levels of cleric for determining their reflex save (since those are on separate tracks). That's what I do.
---Skill Revisions - an Explanation---
Now we start to get into the meat of the revisions I've come up with. Before I actually explain what I mean by re-rolls, let me tell you a thing or two about 3.X DnD. Third Edition has a problem with bonuses. It's a junkie. It just can't get enough bonuses. Racial bonuses, circumstance bonuses, attribute bonuses, inherent bonuses, profane bonuses, dodge bonuses, synergy bonuses, even nameless bonuses. And they all stack. This causes problems, especially at the higher levels. However, it's not just an issue with equipment, wherein a high level character can afford to load themselves up with a mask of bluffing, a potion of glibness, a snake's tongue amulet, a serpent familiar and +4 underwear of deceit so their bluff check is several times larger than what anyone else could overcome... even without equipment, it is entirely feasible for a mid level character to have a combined bonus of +20 or higher in some skill and another character still have a +0... or lower. As I said before, that's bad.
DnD is ideally a game about character specializations and a revolving spotlight, so you want some divergence in the numbers; DimWit the Barbarian gets to look badass when he smashes through a door Cool-Aid Man Style and Swordy McSmiteEvil gets to smirk as he diplomances the party past the guards with his stirring rhetoric and shiny, shiny armor. However, you need to keep everyone numerically within reach of one another otherwise DimWit's player stacks dice until the party finishes talking and Swordy stays in the tavern when he learns the next dungeon crawl involves stealth. Since the roll to determine a skill attempt's success or failure only goes from 1 to 20, the bonuses a character has to their skills RELATIVE TO OTHER SIMILARLY LEVELED CHARACTERS needs to be no more than 20 better or worse than the others (and we should really strive to keep that range around 10). That way Swordy isn't expected to sneaky as well as the party rogue but he can at least show up wearing camo and not embarrass everyone, and the party is genuinely glad to have DimWit around because he actually does notice someone lying through their teeth about one time in four. As far as gratuitous bonuses go, the skill sub-system is among the worst offenders. So that stops. The number of bonuses given out to skills will get paired way, WAY down.
---Re-Rolls---
So, fewer skill bonuses. Okay. If that's the case, what benefit do you actually get when you wear camo and are hiding or have on boots of Superior Leaping and are trying to jump from one rooftop to another? One answer is... re-rolls. One way to represent a really skilled character who gets performance-enhancing equipment is to allow them to roll one or more extra dice and choose the result they want. So Swordy McSmiteEvil gets Robes of the Diplomat. They allow him to, once per session, re-roll his diplomacy check. This means he rolls a d20 and adds his bonus to diplomacy, is dissatisfied with the result and uses his robe's power to roll another d20 and choose whichever one he wants. In contrast to unmitigated bonus accumulation, re-rolls allow for consistent success (which is good) without resulting in guaranteed success (which is bad). More of the particulars concerning re-rolls will be explored in subsequent sections but I wanted to introduce them here because they really are one of the fundamental changes I am introducing with these revisions.
Whenever you use a re-roll of any kind you will roll an identical number of the same kinds of dice as the first roll and then choose between the results. If you are still not satisfied with the results and you have re-rolls remaining, you may do additional re-rolls until you get a number you like or run out of re-rolls. Let's say a strong rogue (+3 strength mod) sneak attacks (+4d6 sneak attack damage) with a longsword (1d8 weapon damage). He would roll 4d6 + 1d8 and add 3 to the result to see how much damage he did (for example, say he rolled a total of 8 on their 4d6 and 5 on their 1d8 for a total of 8 + 5 + 3 = 16). If he used a general re-roll for his attack's damage, he would roll another set of 4d6 + 1d8 and add 3 to that result as well (say he rolled 16 on the 4d6 and 2 on their 1d8 for a total of 16 + 2 + 3 = 21). The rogue could then choose between the original 16, the new 21 (note that he can't mix-and-match the numbers between the rolls) or choose to use another general re-roll if he had one.
So, under the new rules, each character will start each session with one general re-roll and one skill re-roll. Certain feats, equipment, class skills and racial bonuses will grant additional re-rolls (for example, instead of an halflings getting a +1 luck bonus to all saves, they now get one general re-roll per session which can only be used to re-roll a saving throw). Skill re-rolls can, as the name implies, only be used to re-roll skill attempts. Skill re-rolls will be fairly common as far as re-rolls go, but general re-rolls will be much rarer. That's because general re-rolls can be used to re-roll anything: saving throws, attack rolls, skill checks (if you are out of skill re-rolls) or even damage rolls.
All re-rolls are refreshed at the start of a session and unused re-rolls are lost at the end of a session. I'm favoring a "per session" usage over the more typical "X times per day" mechanic because re-rolls represent a meta ability that heroes have. This is their ability to overcome steep odds and get by with determination, grit and luck. And the pacing by which a party needs heroic luck has little-to-no basis on the passage of in-game time and everything to do with the passage of in-session time. The amount of in-game time a session represents is very meta in that one session might cover a span of in-game hours if the scene is particularly tense (pitched combat, tense negotiations or a particularly fraught escape, to name a few examples) while another session might cover multiple days, weeks or even months if it's just a DM monologue or a travel montage. Put another way, if the four of us agree to dedicate 4+ hours to a session of DnD, your characters are going to have an adventure, otherwise we'd have been better off playing board games or throwing a frisbee around. It doesn't matter if your characters were about to square off against a draco-lich or if they just walked into a tavern to hear the local gossip; heroic shit is going to happen and the need to not fail during said heroics begins and ends with the session.
---USE: Untrained, Skilled, Expert---
In regular 3rd ed. a character could have as many ranks in a skill as their level + 3. They would then add their ability modifier and any other bonuses (oh so many bonuses) to those ranks to determine their skill bonus when attempting a skill. Then they'd roll a d20, add their skill bonus to that and see if it met or exceeded whatever the DC (difficulty challenge) was for that skill check. If they did, they were successful; if not, their attempt was a failure. Let's say you were a halfling cleric with an int-mod of +1. You got 2 (base ranks for being a cleric) + 1 (your intelligence modifier) in skill ranks each level, for a total of 3. Most of the time that meant you had three skills you had max ranks in (in this case, say knowledge: religion, spellcraft and healing). So, for those three skills you were an expert and at everything else you were a newb. Now at low level, having a high dex or racial bonus meant you could sneak almost as well as the guy you had max ranks in hide and move silently. At higher levels, this was absolutely not the case. Not cool. So, that entire way of doing things is being replaced with the USE system.
When a character is created they start out unskilled in all skills. Every time they level up they get one skill upgrade they can use for any skill and one or more skill upgrades they can use on their class skills (a cleric, for example, would get one skill upgrade while a rogue would get two). These upgrades can be used to, well, upgrade a character from (U)ntrained to (S)killed, or from (S)killed to (E)xpert. You can't go any higher than Expert and your skill level only goes down if you get level drained or were getting boosts from temporary sources (like spells or equipment). Most of the bonuses in the game have been converted to skill upgrades and/or re-rolls. For example, elves start out with a skill upgrade to spot, listen and search instead the old +2 bonus to each. This makes even the lowliest 1st level, elven commoner as skilled at spotting stuff (for their level) as a skilled 1st level human guard. Elves need to invest less to become experts but, and this is important, the greatest elven look-out is on par with the greatest human look-out. That's because anyone described as "the greatest ____" is going to be a hero and it's important that the heights of success someone can accomplish be limited by their level, not their race/class combination, because that's the entire point to playing a leveled role-playing game where players are free to multi-class.
Whenever you use a re-roll on a skill check, you get a +3 re-roll bonus to the result you choose. Always. No matter what your skill level is, nor what kind of re-roll you used (general vs skill).
When an Untrained character attempts a skill check, they roll a d20 and add half their level to the roll (rounded down) to determine their skill bonus. That's it. No synergy bonuses, racial bonuses, your-mom bonuses, etc. Your not even adding your attribute modifier. Just d20 + 1/2 level. An unskilled character is not allowed to use a skill re-roll if they don't like the result; they'd have to use a precious general re-roll instead. However, if they do re-roll they get the +3 re-roll bonus to the result they choose. Example: a 5th level DimWit the Barbarian attempts an unskilled bluff check. He rolls a d20 (gets a 9) and adds half his level (+2). If he doesn't like his 11 then he'd have to spend a general re-roll to change it, but he would get a +3 to whichever result he chose.
When a Skilled character attempts a skill check, they roll a d20 and add their level to the roll to determine the skill bonus. They are allowed to use skill re-rolls if they don't like the result. If they use a re-roll of any kind, they get an extra +3 re-roll bonus to the result they choose. Example: DimWit attempts a jump check and needs a result of 15 to succeed. He rolls a d20 (gets a 8) and adds his level (+5). He doesn't like the 13 he got so he uses a skill re-roll. He rolls another d20 and gets a 4. Since he used a re-roll, he'll get an extra +3 bonus to the result. His options are his original 13, or the new 9. He chooses the 13 and, with the +3 re-roll bonus he got, gets a result of 16 allowing him to succeed at his jump check.
When an Expert character attempts a skill check, they roll a d20, add their level and add an extra +3 expert bonus to their result. If the d20 was less than a 10, they are considered to have rolled a 10 instead. They are allowed to use skill re-rolls if they don't like the result. If they use a re-roll of any kind, they get an extra +3 re-roll bonus to the result they choose. DimWit is an expert at the survival skill. He attempts to hunt up food for the party while in the wilderness (DC 16 since it is himself and three other party members). He rolls a d20 (gets a 2, but is considered a 10), adds his level (+5) and the +3 expert bonus for a result of 18. If he for some reason wanted to, he could use a re-roll and gotten the additional +3 re-roll bonus to whichever result he chose.
You'll notice in this last example, it was impossible for DimWit to fail that check. This last example shows another reason I'm switching to the USE system: there are some checks which aren't worth being able to fail. At 5th level the party is suppose to be able to pull through against Huge Earth Elementals, Stone Giants or an evil Wizard guarded by a pair of hellcats. At that level, it should be assumed that DimWit can pick enough berries and hunt enough rabbits to feed the party while they trek across some generic, medieval hinterland. Under the normal system, no matter how easy or trivial the task, you can always fail (sometimes rolling something low, like a 5, is enough to cause failure but no matter what there is always rolling the dreaded natural 1). There are lots of occasions in DnD when the awesome character can fail at their awesome skill and, while this does add unpredictability to the game, it can often times derail a good scene. Now, it is important that the characters face the threat of failure for important tasks, otherwise the adventure lacks suspense. However, it is not important that the characters face the threat of failure for unimportant tasks. 3rd ed. does recognize this with the "Take 10" and "Take 20" system, but I want to take it a step further. So an expert is guaranteed success against modest tasks for their level. At the very least, they're guaranteed to not fail spectacularly. They are, after all, an expert.
Numerically, a character at Xth level who is an expert at some skill has the exact same bonus (X + 3) as a normal 3rd ed. character who has max ranks in a skill (level + 3). The only way they can get that bonus higher is to use a re-roll (getting them another +3) and hope to roll higher. Also, a character at Xth level who is unskilled has roughly the same bonus (X/2 rounded down) as a normal 3rd ed. character who has max ranks in a cross-class skill ((level + 3)/2). At 10th level, everyone will have at least a +5 bonus to all skill attempts; that's more than most 3rd ed. characters have when they are working outside their specialty. This means that the best an expert at Xth level can hope to roll on a skill check is 20 + X + 6; the best that an unskilled character at Xth level can hope to roll on a skill check is 20 + X/2. This means that even at 20th level, the difference between absolute mastery and absolute incompetence RELATIVE TO OTHER SIMILARLY LEVELED CHARACTERS is less than 20 (max bonus of 20 + 6 = 26, min bonus of 10, difference of 16) meaning that each character has a chance to contribute at every task at every level because they can always roll an 17 or better while their opponent rolls a 4 or worse. At 20th level, that's a 4% chance of an upset; much better than the 0.25% chance of an upset you get from normal 3rd edition.
Unskilled
+ it's just d20 + level/2 (round down)
+ can only use general re-rolls (with additional +3 re-roll bonus)
Skilled
+ d20 + level
+ can use skill re-rolls (with an additional +3 re-roll bonus)
Expert
+ max(d20, 10) + level + 3 expert bonus
+ can use skill re-rolls (with an additional +3 re-roll bonus)
---Changes to Ability Modifiers---
You'll notice that ability modifiers have been removed from skill rolls (i.e. you no longer add your charisma mod to your bluff check). That was a very, very hard decision to make but it needed to happen to keep the numbers from diverging too much. However, this has the side effect of making ability modifiers less important... in fact, charisma is used for nothing BUT skill checks unless you have a class-specific power (like a paladin's Divine Grace, or a sorcerer's spell casting). So, I'm making some changes to the ability modifiers to make them more useful in this brave new revision.
The party's combined ability modifiers will be averaged to determine the average bonus (hereafter referred to as the AMA or ability modifier average) the party would be receiving to their skill checks if they weren't using the USE system. The AMA will be used as a penalty for determining the skills of monsters out of the Monster Manual. In effect, the party will be suffering a penalty equal to the AMA whenever they make skill rolls so it balances out the math by applying the same penalty to the opposition. This way I don't have to go in and convert all the skills for all the monsters in the MM, something I'm glad of.
++Physical Stats++
No general changes, read below for specifics...
Strength: Str has plenty of job security; after all it determines how hard you hit something in a game that is primarily about hitting monsters repeatedly until they let you take their stuff. Strength is not changed: your strength mod is added to melee damage, melee to-hit, thrown weapon damage, many advanced combat maneuvers (grappling, tripping, etc.) and used to determine your carrying capacity.
Dexterity: Dex, even more-so than Str, has plenty going for it so it is unchanged: your dex mod is added to ranged to-hit, armor class, initiative and reflex saves.
Constitution: Con has always been prized but narrow in it's application. Everyone wants a better fort save and more hit points. Plus, it only applied to the concentration skill so removing it from skill bonuses has pretty minimal effect. However now your con mod gets added (even if negative) to the amount of health you regain each night from rest, for a minimum of 1hp. As such, a 3rd level character with a con mod of +2 would gain 5 hp per night of rest, 10 hp per day of rest and twice those numbers when cared for by a healer. A 2nd level character with a con modifier of -2 would gain 1 hp per night of rest, 2hp per day of rest and so on because they can't gain less than 1 hp per night. This last tweak is just to prop up an otherwise underwhelming mechanic (natural healing).
++Mental Stats++
All mental stats give you one skill re-roll per session equal to half your ability modifier, if positive (round up). However, these skill re-rolls can only be applied to skills which are associated with that attribute (such as bluff being associated with charisma, spot being associated with spot and spellcraft being associated with intelligence). Therefore, a character with an int mod of +1, a cha mod of +2 and a wis mod of -1 would get 1 extra intelligence related skill re-roll per session (1/2 round up), 1 extra charisma re-roll (2/2 round up) and 0 extra wisdom re-rolls (since a negative modifier doesn't count against you).
Intelligence: Int used to determine your number of starting languages and the number of skill ranks you got each level. It still determines the number of bonus languages you start with but clearly the skill ranks thing is out because we aren't using skill ranks anymore. Instead, when your character is created, you get one additional skill upgrade per point of your int mod (or less if your int mod is negative). For each point your int mod increases between leveling you gain one additional skill upgrade. Also, you get skill re-rolls equal to half your intelligence modifier (round up), usable only for intelligence-related skills.
Wisdom: Wis is used as a bonus to your will-save, which makes it pretty important on it's own. Which is good because that's all it does. Other than get skill re-rolls equal to half your wisdom modifier (round up), usable only for wisdom-related skills.
Charisma: Cha has it rough with this change. It isn't used for anything at all except skill bonuses which has made it the dump-stat of choice for characters for years. In an effort to give it something to do, I am making it so that you can use your cha mod in place of your wis mod for will saves. After all, your will save is meant to represent your strength of self and force of personality so I'm cool having meditative monks (high wisdom) and ego-powered sorcerers (high charisma) both able to shrug off enchantments. Also, you get skill re-rolls equal to half your charisma modifier (round up), usable only for charisma-related skills.
Note that when creating characters, we will be using the usual "4d6 drop the lowest" to generate a stat array. Any stat array with a net bonus of less than +2 can be re-rolled (when you add all the modifiers up, if the sum is less than a +2 than you can scrap that array and start over). Each player will generate a stat array and then each player can pick any of the stat arrays created (so if Larcy got the array 12/9/12/16/15/13 and Jacob got the array 8/11/12/18/18/8, both Jacob and Larcy could choose to use the numbers from Jacob's array if they wanted to).
---Changes to skill boosting items and spells---
As part of my campaign of numeric responsibility, I'm changing the nature of skill boosting items and spells. It's a pretty simple change, in part because I'm keeping things vague. Instead of something offering a +2 to this or a +10 to that, it will instead increase your rank in that skill by one or more steps (taking you from U -> S -> E). For every step beyond Expert an item or spell would take you, you instead gain one skill re-roll per session that can only be used for that skill. Spells which give out insane bonuses (invisibility to hide, glibness to bluff) will be altered as well. Now, there are a hell of a lot of skill boosting spells and items out there so I'm just going to hand wave this and say that I will translate those from 3.5 rules to revised rules as needed. However, to give you a feel for what I'm talking about, here are a few examples:
Boots of Elvenkind - OLD VERSION
These soft boots enable the wearer to move quietly in virtually any surroundings, granting a +5 competence bonus on Move Silently checks.
Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be an elf; Price 2,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Boots of Elvenkind - NEW VERSION
These soft boots enable the wearer to move quietly in virtually any surroundings, granting a skill upgrade to Move Silently. If the wearer already has a rank of Expert at Move Silently then they instead get one extra skill re-roll per session that can only be used when using the Move Silently skill. This re-roll is lost if the boots are removed. If the re-roll has been used, another re-roll isn't gained if the wearer puts on a different pair of Boots of Elvenkind.
Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be an elf; Price 2,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Jump - OLD VERSION
Transmutation
Level: Drd 1, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes
The subject gets a +10 enhancement bonus on Jump checks. The enhancement bonus increases to +20 at caster level 5th, and to +30 (the maximum) at caster level 9th.
Material Component
A grasshopper’s hind leg, which you break when the spell is cast.
Jump - NEW VERSION
Transmutation
Level: Drd 1, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes
The subject gets one skill upgrade to jump. This increases to two upgrades at caster level 5th, and to three (the maximum) at caster level 9th. For each step beyond Expert this would take the subject, they get one extra skill re-roll that can only be used when making jump checks. These re-rolls vanish at the end of the spell's duration.
Material Component
A grasshopper’s hind leg, which you break when the spell is cast.
Invisibility: Consider the following a revision to the hide skill definition... no more +40 to hide checks. While under this effect, you are automatically considered to have rolled a 20 during all hide skill attempts against all enemies who would rely on sight to detect you. You must roll normally against enemies which use other means (tremor sense, scent, etc.) of detection.
Glibness: Your speech becomes fluent and more believable. You are automatically considered to have rolled a 20 during all Bluff checks made to convince another of the truth of your words. (This bonus doesn’t apply to other uses of the Bluff skill, such as feinting in combat, creating a diversion to hide, or communicating a hidden message via innuendo.)
If a magical effect is used against you that would detect your lies or force you to speak the truth the user of the effect must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 15 + your caster level to succeed. Failure means the effect does not detect your lies or force you to speak only the truth.
---Changes to a few of the skills---
First, skill synergies are gone. However, if you are at least Skilled in a knowledge skill then you gain one re-roll per session which can only be used for the skill it used to grant synergy to (e.g. so a diplomacy re-roll with knowledge: nobility).
There is no more Skill Focus feat and no more generic "+2 to two skills" feats. All of those are replaced by the following:
Skillful [General]
Benefit: you gain two skill upgrades. Both can be applied to the same skill or split between two different skills.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times.
And then there are the changes to some of the skills themselves; namely speak languages and craft (which is being turned into two 2-part skills).
Speak Language
U: like normal
S: you get a number of bonus language slots equal to your level. You may fill one for free every time you level. Also, once per session you can fill another slot with any language you are exposed to.
E: you get three additional bonus language slots. You may fill in any unfilled bonus language slots as a free action. You get one additional skill re-roll per session which can be used for bluff, diplomacy, decipher script or forgery in any language you know. Note that skill re-rolls can't be used for a skill you are untrained in.
NOTE: characters in this campaign are not literate by default. To attain literacy, a character must spend one bonus language slot on "Literacy" as though it were a separate language. The only ways to gain bonus language slots is through a high intelligence modifier or through skill upgrades for the Speak Language skill.
Craft (Alchemy/Poison)
U: you may not attempt to craft either poisonous or alchemical substances unskilled.
S: pick Alchemy or Poison. You can attempt to craft substances of that sort (see PHB and DMG for details) and gain the usual benefits of being skilled (re-rolls, full level bonus)
E: You can attempt to craft both poisonous and alchemical substances and gain the usual benefits of being an expert (+3 bonus, minimum result)
Craft (Combat Equipment/Non-Combat Equipment)
U: you may attempt to craft equipment unskilled but you can not create items of masterwork quality and the cost of creating the item is tripled.
S: pick Combat or Non-Combat equipment. You can attempt to create equipment of that sort of any quality level (see PHB and DMG for details) and gain the usual benefits of being skilled (re-rolls, full level bonus)
E: You can attempt to craft both types of equipment and gain the usual benefits of being an expert (+3 bonus, minimum result)
---New leveling Mechanic (ELO)---
So, in regular DnD your character runs around fighting stuff, swinging from chandeliers, sneaking into crypts and otherwise gaining XP. Then, like something out of Order of the Stick, they level up and gain access to a host of new skills and powers they previously didn’t possess. That seems a little incongruous to me. I mean, sure the game hand waves this away claiming that your 2nd level fighter was practicing their sneaking and lock picking before you explicitly spent that 3rd level on rogue, but it’s still an all-or-nothing progression. If our 2nd level proto-rogue was faced with a locked door, he's still SOL even though he was “secretly practicing all along”. I turn now to Mr. Burlew for further illustrating my point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html).
So several changes are in order. First off; no more XP. That sounds like a big deal but it really isn’t. XP is only used for determining how close you are to leveling as well as used as a way to disincentive certain casting spells (XP material component) or creating magic items (1/25 gp cost in XP). However, I haven’t had XP costs in more than two campaigns and haven’t missed them. Anyway, characters will now gain a new level once they have received three advancement points and characters usually get one advancement point at the end of each session. So, if your character starts at 1st level, they will be 2nd level by the end of the 3rd session, 3rd by the end of the 6th and so on. If a session is particularly impressive or difficult, the party might earn more than the typical number of advancement points. Likewise, if the session is really just laying the groundwork for adventure rather than actually adventuring then that session’s advancement point might be deferred until later.
It might seem odd that the PCs would be leveling up on a pretty regular schedule but that's pretty much how the math of challenge ratings and XP gain works out, just with waaaay more accounting. I even went and looked over my old post-mortems and you guys were leveling once every 2-4 sessions, averaging about one level every 3. As such, this isn't as disruptive a change as it might initially seem.
This next part is probably my favorite rule revision of all. Every session, each character will have one Early Leveling Opportunity (ELO). An ELO allows a character to spontaneously gain one of the things they would gain from their next level. With an ELO a monk could gain another fighting style early, a wizard could gain access to a higher level spell sooner than normal, or a multi-classing character could express their diversifying talents on their way to leveling up. Even more interestingly, it allows characters to grow their skills organically; if the party suddenly finds itself needing someone who can speak orcish or disarm a dread knight or craft a disguise, one or more party members can use their ELOs to claim to have just the talent needed in the nick of time... you know, like what happens all the time in actual fantasy stories. Furthermore, it would allow the characters to more closely reflect their adventure; many of you took ranks in sense motive after Kobin Hammerite played you guys like a cheap fiddle and that’s way more memorable than just maximizing your ranks in hide because your character is a sneak; those ranks in sense motive had a story behind them and that's awesome!
Before I go any further, here's the ELO mechanics all spelled out:
An early level opportunity (ELO) can be used at any time (even reactively during another player's turn) during a session; though the DM may require the ELO to somehow be relevant (suddenly gaining Whirlwind Attack while surrounded, skill upgrades in Bluff while lying, etc.)
If this is the first ELO you have used for this level, you choose which class you are going to next level up in. You then choose one of the following:
1) all the weapon, armor and shield proficiencies in addition to the hp, base save and base attack progression you would gain from that level.
2) all the skill training you would gain from that level (both from the class and the one skill upgrade you get every level)
3) any one class feature you would gain from that level
4) the 1 feat you would gain if you are going to reach a 3rd level (3rd, 6th, 9th, etc.)
5) If none of the above options are relevant, you may gain one additional general and skill re-roll for this session.
If you didn't choose option 5, you gain one general re-roll which must be used as soon as possible and can only be used in a way which is related to the benefit you gained from the ELO.
For example, if a character gained the feat Improved Initiative from their ELO, they would gain an general re-roll which they must use the next time they roll for initiative.
Other examples for the above options are:
1) a re-roll on the attack or damage for a weapon you just gained proficiency in
2) a re-roll for one of the skills you just upgraded
3) a re-roll related to the class feature you just gained
4) a re-roll for one attack roll or saving throw if your base attack bonus or saves improved
5) a re-roll related to the feat you just gained
As example, let's say you have a 2nd level fighter, Bob, who has been imprisoned. Bob's player hasn't decided what class he wants to level Bob up in next so he decides the next class is going to be rogue. Bob's player announces he is using his ELO for this session and that Bob is gaining the skill upgrades he would gain from being a 3rd level character with 1 level in rogue (this gets him 2 skill upgrades for rogue class-skills and 1 skill upgrade for the skill of his choice). Bob suddenly becomes skilled in open lock, escape artist and hide. He also gains a skill re-roll for one of those three skills. Bob uses his new rogue skills to escape his imprisonment and now has a more memorable multi-classing story than just "yeah, I took a 3rd level of rogue for the sneak attack damage and reflex save". In the next session, Bob could gain the sneak attack class ability just as he's about to ambush a foe, gain the feat he would get when he hit 3rd level, and so on.
Needless to say, once your character actually levels up you don't get any bonuses or class features twice (so if Bob got +1d6 sneak attack from an ELO, that will NOT turn into +2d6 sneak attack when he actually gets that 1st complete level of rogue). You're merely getting earlier abilities, not more abilities.
I think this will add a lot of fun to each session because each session your character will have a mini-level up to play with plus a re-roll to ensure your new toy works when you first take it out of the box. Also, I sincerely hope this will encourage the party's character development to be more heavily influenced by the particulars of the sessions. DnD is a cooperative narrative wherein 2 or more players control one dude each and one player controls everyone else; PCs should help sculpt the shape of the narrative and the narrative should help sculpt the shape of the PCs.
At least, that's the dream...
Last edited by Shatner on Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
If that 4th level provides nothing larger than a +3 bonus than no, not for most levels that people actually play at (at 20th level the widest spread would be about 20... but who cares about 20th level anyway). It might ruin the U.S.E. acronym thoughcodeGlaze wrote:Thats actually pretty impressive, Shatner.
Do you think a 4th level of skill would completely destroy that balance?
.-
Username17
- Serious Badass
- Posts: 29894
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
It doesn't have to. Your fourth skill type could be Deft or Remarkable or something.Shatner wrote:It might ruin the U.S.E. acronym though
Anyway, it's important to note that even if failed saves versus death are something that happens more often than level increases, characters are still going to gain levels. There are a couple of mechanisms for this. The first is that players adapt tactics. If the Save-or-Dies from team monster are not distributed evenly among the different enemies, players will eventually acquire tactics that minimize their exposure to those SoDs. This might include running from Beholder encounters while grinding on Titanic Toads.
But the dirtier secret is that failed saves aren't going to be distributed evenly among the party. If failed death saves are as or more common than level-ups, you're still more likely to see one or two players increase in level and another couple players fall in level than to see everyone run in place. And since such shenanigans are reinforcing, after a few iterations you are most likely to see a couple of higher level characters and a bunch of fail-characters who get retired. This was actually Gygax's Darwinist vision for how things were supposed to work.
Anyway, yes the general expectation is that bad saves approximately keep pace with Save DCs and good saves raise a bit faster. As characters become high level, they get access to more abilities that require saves and they get to more freely force their targets to save-or-lose against a save type of their choice. And this is counteracted by the fact that the good saves on characters become harder and harder for casters to affect at all.
-Username17
Shatner, do you mind if I put this up on the wiki?
edit:
Also (I'm talking to my group about this), to clarify, characters do not get ANY skill points at character creation, aside from racial bonuses. Right?
edit2:
How do you handle things like Knowledge or even.... Profession?
edit3:
How do you determine how many skill points a class gets?
Or is rogue the only one that gets 2? (Maybe bard?)
edit:
Also (I'm talking to my group about this), to clarify, characters do not get ANY skill points at character creation, aside from racial bonuses. Right?
edit2:
How do you handle things like Knowledge or even.... Profession?
edit3:
How do you determine how many skill points a class gets?
Or is rogue the only one that gets 2? (Maybe bard?)
Last edited by codeGlaze on Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:51 am, edited 4 times in total.
First off, I stumbled back across this thread recently and realized codeGlaze had asked some questions I'd never responded to. I realize that was about seven months ago and the answers are probably not needed with any urgency at this point, but I wanted to post answers in case it helps clarify things for others on down the line.
Below is my 0th level rules.
---Level 0 and Slightly Altered Leveling Up mechanics---
One of the things that have always bothered me about DnD is that the order of leveling matters. That is, a Fighter 1/Rogue 1 will have fewer skill ranks but more hitpoints than a Rogue 1/Fighter 1 because you get maximum HP and 4x the usual number of skill ranks at 1st level. Also, I've always been a little uncertain about the current roll-for-hp each level. Over time all characters will trend towards the hp average for their class (5.5hp per level of Fighter, 2.5hp per level of wizard, etc.), meaning that bad rolls will eventually be balanced by good rolls... that's just the math. However, players rarely roll more than a dozen hit dice for any one of their PCs so characters can be decidedly over or under average. So, more tweaks...
Everyone starts at 0th level; this way level 1 is mechanically no different than any other level. At 0th level you get:
1) a skill upgrade in 2 different skills of your choice, +/- additional skill upgrades equal to your intelligence modifier (to a minimum of 0).
2) 4hp
3) no weapon, armor or shield proficiencies
4) all racial training and skill upgrades (in effect, all of your racial benefits are applied as part of hitting level 0)
5) one feat
Every level thereafter you pick a class and get:
1) 1 skill upgrade to be used on the skill of your choice. If your intelligence modifier increased during this level then you gain additional skills per point of increase.
2) a number of skill upgrades usable only for class skills, determined by what class you are gaining a level in.
3) d4 addition hp plus the bonus hp from the class (+0 wizard, +2 rogue, +4 cleric, +6 fighter, +8 barbarian)
4) all class features, special abilities, proficiencies, spells, etc. granted by the level of the class you are gaining, minus any you gained from ELOs
5) your base save and base attack advance along their respective progressions based on the class you are gaining, provided it hasn't already from an ELO
6) You get 1 feat at every 3rd level (3rd, 6th, 9th, etc.)
7) You get 1 attribute point every 4th level (4th, 8th, 12th, etc.)
8) If ever you are out of class skills to gain training in, you instead gain one additional skill upgrade in the skill of your choice.
If a class offers a d4 hit die (like wizard and sorcerer) then it offers +0 hp per level. A d6 hit die (rogue, bard, etc.) offers a +2, d8 (cleric, monk) offers +4, d10 (fighter, ranger) offers a +6 and a d12 (barbarian) offers a +8. If a class offers 6 + int mod skill points per level or less (this is all classes except rogue), under this new system it offers 1 skill upgrade in a class skill per level. If it offers 8 + int mod than it offers 2 skill upgrades in class skills per level.
So, I decide to make a 1st level Half-Orc barbarian, with an intelligence mod of -1 and a constitution mod of +2. He starts out at level 0 with 1 skill upgrade (2 + (-1 int mod)), one feat, 4hp (con mod isn't applied at level 0), no weapon/armor/shield proficiencies and all his racial bonuses (+2 strength, darkvision, skill upgrades to intimidate, gather information and survival, etc.).
He then takes his first level, choosing the class "barbarian". He gets 1 skill upgrade for any skill and 1 skill upgrade for a barbarian class skill (the barbarian class only grants one skill upgrade per level). He gains 1d4 + 10 hp (+8 from his level of barbarian, +2 from his con mod). Assuming he rolls a 1, his new HP total will be 4 (level 0) + 1 (d4 result) + 10 = 15. He gets all the features, proficiencies, saves, base attack, etc. from taking a level of barbarian (rage, progression along the favored fort save track, medium armor proficiency, etc.). He does not get an extra feat or attribute point since level 1 is neither a 3rd level nor a 4th level... the feat characters used to get at level 1 they now get at level 0. This way, if my barbarian decides to take a level of monk next level he won't have a weird hp and skill disparity than the character who went Monk first, then barbarian.
This change does mean that players will have slightly more HP than average (you get an extra 4hp from 0th level) but I can live with it taking one extra dagger stab to take down a PC in exchange for smoother leveling numeric progression.
As for profession... I'd go one of two different ways on it. The first is to treat it like a normal skill. For example, skilled characters get a bonus equal to their level and can use skill re-rolls instead of general rerolls for carpentry-related checks.
However, Profession sucks compared to normal skills such as spot and bluff, so I'd go something like how I handle Speak Languages or Perform, where each upgrade increases the number of applications of the skill in addition to the numerical bonus afforded when using the skill:
Speak Language
U: like normal
S: you get a number of bonus language slots equal to your level. You may fill one for free every time you level. Also, once per session you can fill another slot with any language you are exposed to.
E: you get three additional bonus language slots. You may fill in any unfilled bonus language slots as a free action. You get one additional skill re-roll per session which can be used for bluff, diplomacy, decipher script or forgery in any language you know. Note that skill re-rolls can't be used for a skill you are untrained in.
Perform
U: like normal
S: you are skilled in performing with a number of instruments equal to your level. You may fill one for free every time you level. Also, once per session you can fill another instrument proficiency with any instrument you are exposed to.
E: you are an expert in performing with three additional instruments. You may fill in any unfilled instrument proficiencies as a free action. You get one additional skill re-roll per session which can be used for any skill check (including Perform) which is related to performances with instruments you are trained in. Note that skill re-rolls can't be used for a skill you are untrained in.
Profession
U: like normal
S: you are skilled in a number of professions equal to your level. You may fill one for free every time you level. Also, once per session you can fill another profession with any profession you are exposed to.
E: you are an expert in three additional professions. You may fill in any unfilled professions as a free action. You get one additional skill re-roll per session which can be used for any skill check (including Profession) which is related to the professions you are trained in. Note that skill re-rolls can't be used for a skill you are untrained in.
Not at all. Do with it what you will.codeGlaze wrote:Shatner, do you mind if I put this up on the wiki?
When I ran a campaign with these rule revisions, I fleshed things out a bit more and added a Level 0 to help distinguish the weirdness of what you normally get at 1st level vs what you get at every other level. To directly answer your question, they'd get 4 skill upgrades +/- 1/int bonus + racial upgrades at 0th level.codeGlaze wrote:edit:
Also (I'm talking to my group about this), to clarify, characters do not get ANY skill points at character creation, aside from racial bonuses. Right?
Below is my 0th level rules.
---Level 0 and Slightly Altered Leveling Up mechanics---
One of the things that have always bothered me about DnD is that the order of leveling matters. That is, a Fighter 1/Rogue 1 will have fewer skill ranks but more hitpoints than a Rogue 1/Fighter 1 because you get maximum HP and 4x the usual number of skill ranks at 1st level. Also, I've always been a little uncertain about the current roll-for-hp each level. Over time all characters will trend towards the hp average for their class (5.5hp per level of Fighter, 2.5hp per level of wizard, etc.), meaning that bad rolls will eventually be balanced by good rolls... that's just the math. However, players rarely roll more than a dozen hit dice for any one of their PCs so characters can be decidedly over or under average. So, more tweaks...
Everyone starts at 0th level; this way level 1 is mechanically no different than any other level. At 0th level you get:
1) a skill upgrade in 2 different skills of your choice, +/- additional skill upgrades equal to your intelligence modifier (to a minimum of 0).
2) 4hp
3) no weapon, armor or shield proficiencies
4) all racial training and skill upgrades (in effect, all of your racial benefits are applied as part of hitting level 0)
5) one feat
Every level thereafter you pick a class and get:
1) 1 skill upgrade to be used on the skill of your choice. If your intelligence modifier increased during this level then you gain additional skills per point of increase.
2) a number of skill upgrades usable only for class skills, determined by what class you are gaining a level in.
3) d4 addition hp plus the bonus hp from the class (+0 wizard, +2 rogue, +4 cleric, +6 fighter, +8 barbarian)
4) all class features, special abilities, proficiencies, spells, etc. granted by the level of the class you are gaining, minus any you gained from ELOs
5) your base save and base attack advance along their respective progressions based on the class you are gaining, provided it hasn't already from an ELO
6) You get 1 feat at every 3rd level (3rd, 6th, 9th, etc.)
7) You get 1 attribute point every 4th level (4th, 8th, 12th, etc.)
8) If ever you are out of class skills to gain training in, you instead gain one additional skill upgrade in the skill of your choice.
If a class offers a d4 hit die (like wizard and sorcerer) then it offers +0 hp per level. A d6 hit die (rogue, bard, etc.) offers a +2, d8 (cleric, monk) offers +4, d10 (fighter, ranger) offers a +6 and a d12 (barbarian) offers a +8. If a class offers 6 + int mod skill points per level or less (this is all classes except rogue), under this new system it offers 1 skill upgrade in a class skill per level. If it offers 8 + int mod than it offers 2 skill upgrades in class skills per level.
So, I decide to make a 1st level Half-Orc barbarian, with an intelligence mod of -1 and a constitution mod of +2. He starts out at level 0 with 1 skill upgrade (2 + (-1 int mod)), one feat, 4hp (con mod isn't applied at level 0), no weapon/armor/shield proficiencies and all his racial bonuses (+2 strength, darkvision, skill upgrades to intimidate, gather information and survival, etc.).
He then takes his first level, choosing the class "barbarian". He gets 1 skill upgrade for any skill and 1 skill upgrade for a barbarian class skill (the barbarian class only grants one skill upgrade per level). He gains 1d4 + 10 hp (+8 from his level of barbarian, +2 from his con mod). Assuming he rolls a 1, his new HP total will be 4 (level 0) + 1 (d4 result) + 10 = 15. He gets all the features, proficiencies, saves, base attack, etc. from taking a level of barbarian (rage, progression along the favored fort save track, medium armor proficiency, etc.). He does not get an extra feat or attribute point since level 1 is neither a 3rd level nor a 4th level... the feat characters used to get at level 1 they now get at level 0. This way, if my barbarian decides to take a level of monk next level he won't have a weird hp and skill disparity than the character who went Monk first, then barbarian.
This change does mean that players will have slightly more HP than average (you get an extra 4hp from 0th level) but I can live with it taking one extra dagger stab to take down a PC in exchange for smoother leveling numeric progression.
Knowledge is handled like other skills. You pick a knowledge sub-category, such as Knowledge(Arcana) and spend upgrades to go from Unskilled to Skilled and so on. Since skill synergies are gone, if you are at least Skilled in a knowledge skill then you gain one re-roll per session which can only be used for the skill it used to grant synergy to (e.g. so a diplomacy re-roll with knowledge: nobility).codeGlaze wrote:edit2:
How do you handle things like Knowledge or even.... Profession?
As for profession... I'd go one of two different ways on it. The first is to treat it like a normal skill. For example, skilled characters get a bonus equal to their level and can use skill re-rolls instead of general rerolls for carpentry-related checks.
However, Profession sucks compared to normal skills such as spot and bluff, so I'd go something like how I handle Speak Languages or Perform, where each upgrade increases the number of applications of the skill in addition to the numerical bonus afforded when using the skill:
Speak Language
U: like normal
S: you get a number of bonus language slots equal to your level. You may fill one for free every time you level. Also, once per session you can fill another slot with any language you are exposed to.
E: you get three additional bonus language slots. You may fill in any unfilled bonus language slots as a free action. You get one additional skill re-roll per session which can be used for bluff, diplomacy, decipher script or forgery in any language you know. Note that skill re-rolls can't be used for a skill you are untrained in.
Perform
U: like normal
S: you are skilled in performing with a number of instruments equal to your level. You may fill one for free every time you level. Also, once per session you can fill another instrument proficiency with any instrument you are exposed to.
E: you are an expert in performing with three additional instruments. You may fill in any unfilled instrument proficiencies as a free action. You get one additional skill re-roll per session which can be used for any skill check (including Perform) which is related to performances with instruments you are trained in. Note that skill re-rolls can't be used for a skill you are untrained in.
Profession
U: like normal
S: you are skilled in a number of professions equal to your level. You may fill one for free every time you level. Also, once per session you can fill another profession with any profession you are exposed to.
E: you are an expert in three additional professions. You may fill in any unfilled professions as a free action. You get one additional skill re-roll per session which can be used for any skill check (including Profession) which is related to the professions you are trained in. Note that skill re-rolls can't be used for a skill you are untrained in.
Everyone who gets less than 8 skill points per level in the old system gets 1 skill upgrade per level in the new system. Everyone else gets 2 skill upgrades per level. If you wanted to make Bards get 2 skill upgrades per level, you could do so, though I imagine they'd be fine as-is given the consolidation of Speak Language and Perform.codeGlaze wrote:edit3:
How do you determine how many skill points a class gets?
Or is rogue the only one that gets 2? (Maybe bard?)
Last edited by Shatner on Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I might seriously steal this, if you don't mind, Shatner.
Then, once you have absorbed the lesson, that your so-called "friends" are nothing but meat sacks flopping around in the fashion of an outgassing corpse, pile all of your dice and pencils and graph-paper in the corner and SET THEM ON FIRE. Weep meaningless tears.
-DrPraetor
-DrPraetor
-
AndreiChekov
- Knight-Baron
- Posts: 523
- Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:54 pm
- Location: an AA meeting. Or Caemlyn.
I like what I see. The wording on saves and BAB is a bit weird though. Wouldn't it be simpler to simply show the fractions that each one is theoretically adding at each level and then just tell people to add them as they go?
Have you tried giving 1 skill upgrade per 2 class base skill points? (4 for rogue, 3 for bard, 2 for monk, 1 for cleric) Or does that get too crazy?
Have you tried giving 1 skill upgrade per 2 class base skill points? (4 for rogue, 3 for bard, 2 for monk, 1 for cleric) Or does that get too crazy?
Peace favour your sword.
I only play 3.x
I only play 3.x
Glad you like it.AndreiChekov wrote:I like what I see. The wording on saves and BAB is a bit weird though. Wouldn't it be simpler to simply show the fractions that each one is theoretically adding at each level and then just tell people to add them as they go?
Have you tried giving 1 skill upgrade per 2 class base skill points? (4 for rogue, 3 for bard, 2 for monk, 1 for cleric) Or does that get too crazy?
Select members of my gaming group are pretty math-phobic, especially towards fractions. As a result I keep my homebrew stuff confined to integers whenever possible. And yeah, the BAB wording is complicated more than is strictly necessary as a result.
As to the increased skill upgrade progression, I find skill upgrades accumulate pretty quickly. This is because a character's numeric bonuses are scaling automatically (as though they were adding skill points to their various skills) AND they are getting 2 or 3 skill upgrades each level, which give better numbers still. You don't want everyone to max out their class skills too quickly, so unless your players level very slowly, I'd recommend keeping the rate of skill upgrade accumulation to its current level.
If you really wanted to, you could institute fractional skill upgrade accumulation, where clerics/wizards/sorcerers get 1/level, barbarians/druids/monks and bards/rangers get 1.5/level, and rogues get 2/level. I could see that keeping the rate of accumulation from being too great, provided your group isn't fraction-phobic like mine is.
-
...You Lost Me
- Duke
- Posts: 1854
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:21 am
Would you do the same thing for Knowledge and Perform (and why not Craft?) as you did for Speak Language?
DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.
Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.
Yes, and I did a few posts earlier in this thread when codeGlaze asked pretty much the same thing....You Lost Me wrote:Would you do the same thing for Knowledge and Perform (and why not Craft?) as you did for Speak Language?
Shatner wrote:Knowledge is handled like other skills. You pick a knowledge sub-category, such as Knowledge(Arcana) and spend upgrades to go from Unskilled to Skilled and so on. Since skill synergies are gone, if you are at least Skilled in a knowledge skill then you gain one re-roll per session which can only be used for the skill it used to grant synergy to (e.g. so a diplomacy re-roll with knowledge: nobility).codeGlaze wrote:edit2:
How do you handle things like Knowledge or even.... Profession?
As for profession... I'd go one of two different ways on it. The first is to treat it like a normal skill. For example, skilled characters get a bonus equal to their level and can use skill re-rolls instead of general rerolls for carpentry-related checks.
However, Profession sucks compared to normal skills such as spot and bluff, so I'd go something like how I handle Speak Languages or Perform, where each upgrade increases the number of applications of the skill in addition to the numerical bonus afforded when using the skill:
Speak Language
U: like normal
S: you get a number of bonus language slots equal to your level. You may fill one for free every time you level. Also, once per session you can fill another slot with any language you are exposed to.
E: you get three additional bonus language slots. You may fill in any unfilled bonus language slots as a free action. You get one additional skill re-roll per session which can be used for bluff, diplomacy, decipher script or forgery in any language you know. Note that skill re-rolls can't be used for a skill you are untrained in.
Perform
U: like normal
S: you are skilled in performing with a number of instruments equal to your level. You may fill one for free every time you level. Also, once per session you can fill another instrument proficiency with any instrument you are exposed to.
E: you are an expert in performing with three additional instruments. You may fill in any unfilled instrument proficiencies as a free action. You get one additional skill re-roll per session which can be used for any skill check (including Perform) which is related to performances with instruments you are trained in. Note that skill re-rolls can't be used for a skill you are untrained in.
Profession
U: like normal
S: you are skilled in a number of professions equal to your level. You may fill one for free every time you level. Also, once per session you can fill another profession with any profession you are exposed to.
E: you are an expert in three additional professions. You may fill in any unfilled professions as a free action. You get one additional skill re-roll per session which can be used for any skill check (including Profession) which is related to the professions you are trained in. Note that skill re-rolls can't be used for a skill you are untrained in.
And crafting was covered in my spoilered block of text, also earlier in the thread.
Shatner in the Spoilered Wall of Text wrote: Craft (Alchemy/Poison)
U: you may not attempt to craft either poisonous or alchemical substances unskilled.
S: pick Alchemy or Poison. You can attempt to craft substances of that sort (see PHB and DMG for details) and gain the usual benefits of being skilled (re-rolls, full level bonus)
E: You can attempt to craft both poisonous and alchemical substances and gain the usual benefits of being an expert (+3 bonus, minimum result)
Craft (Combat Equipment/Non-Combat Equipment)
U: you may attempt to craft equipment unskilled but you can not create items of masterwork quality and the cost of creating the item is tripled.
S: pick Combat or Non-Combat equipment. You can attempt to create equipment of that sort of any quality level (see PHB and DMG for details) and gain the usual benefits of being skilled (re-rolls, full level bonus)
E: You can attempt to craft both types of equipment and gain the usual benefits of being an expert (+3 bonus, minimum result)
-
...You Lost Me
- Duke
- Posts: 1854
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:21 am
Oh man I'm blind.
I was just wondering why you didn't take the standard crafting sub-rules (metalworking, pots & pans, etc.) and turn that into a knowledge-esque skill, giving 1 crafting type per level.
I was just wondering why you didn't take the standard crafting sub-rules (metalworking, pots & pans, etc.) and turn that into a knowledge-esque skill, giving 1 crafting type per level.
DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.
Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.
Speak language still seems a bit clunky... Every character being able to understand 10 or more languages at level 10 at the cost of one skill point feels off for ... what ever reason. I'm having trouble putting my finger on it.
Although it does seem more balanced if you want to read all the languages, too... ignore this.
Although it does seem more balanced if you want to read all the languages, too... ignore this.
Last edited by codeGlaze on Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Phlebotinum : fleh-bot-ih-nuhm • A glossary of RPG/Dennizen terminology • Favorite replies: [1]
nockermensch wrote:Advantage will lead to dicepools in D&D. Remember, you read this here first!
I agree that it does feel a bit weird, that a single investment in speak language means being a polyglot by higher levels... but that's not all that impressive in DnD land.
At 9th level, people can teleport anywhere on the globe, raise the dead, visit the heavens and hells, bind extra-planar creatures to their whim, engage in mind control, conjure forcefields, and blow shit up real big.
Being able to speak elven, undercommon, common, dwarven, giant, goblin, ignan, infernal, aquan, gnollish, and draconic just doesn't measure up. Plus, people have been able to understand EVERY language since 1st level (comprehend languages) and speak EVERY language since 5th level (tongues).
At 9th level, people can teleport anywhere on the globe, raise the dead, visit the heavens and hells, bind extra-planar creatures to their whim, engage in mind control, conjure forcefields, and blow shit up real big.
Being able to speak elven, undercommon, common, dwarven, giant, goblin, ignan, infernal, aquan, gnollish, and draconic just doesn't measure up. Plus, people have been able to understand EVERY language since 1st level (comprehend languages) and speak EVERY language since 5th level (tongues).
Last edited by Shatner on Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.