Ten Levels

[Mistborn]

In D&D land, it is possible, though less common, to train enough to be able to make your swords catch fire and leave a trail of flames behind you as you run.

Desert Wind is (Su) numbnuts

[ishy]

In D&D land, it is possible and normal for agile, roguish people to stand at the center of a 40-ft wide explosion and be unharmed. In D&D land, it is possible, though less common, to train enough to be able to make your swords catch fire and leave a trail of flames behind you as you run.

Don't say the people who complain about evasion and Desert Wind are rational: they are incorrectly evaluating actions taken in one context by the the norms of another context. That is just plain wrong.

While we are at it, lets let fighters use scrolls and cast spells. But that is totally not magic, because the fighter is doing it. Thus it works in anti-magic fields etc.
And if you complain, you are just plain wrong, since it is possible in our new d&d land to do this with enough training.

[Libertad]

Just going to weigh in and say that Rogues are not considered spellcasaters, but have Use Magic Device as a class skill.

In this thread I'm seeing inconsistent definitions of "mundane."

Does it include Monks, who have Supernatural abilities but do not cast Vancian spells? What about Rogues using Wands?

[Mistborn]

Does it include Monks, who have Supernatural abilities but do not cast Vancian spells? What about Rogues using Wands?

Monks are not spellcasters but they're still (su) they're the original weeaboo fightan' mages.

As for UMD obviously using magic but it's script kiddie magic. You're just using spells someone else has already prepared for you.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Just going to weigh in and say that Rogues are not considered spellcasaters, but have Use Magic Device as a class skill.

In this thread I'm seeing inconsistent definitions of "mundane."

Does it include Monks, who have Supernatural abilities but do not cast Vancian spells? What about Rogues using Wands?

IMO, mundane means things that real life humans could do.

One could also use a definition of, "things that a real life human could do if he or she wound up in the D&D world," but then you wind up defining wizards as mundane, and that's not what most people mean.

[DSMatticus]

IMO, mundane means things that real life humans could do.

That's a definition, but nobody except crazy people (i.e. idiots who nerf fighters cause REALISM and also think such fighters are balanced) would ever try to defend mundane based on that definition. Mundane is really just a power source - it's a theme your abilities ride on. As Frank has mentioned elsewhere, it is a power source that invites stealth nerfs cause REALISM, and that makes it fairly unversatile. As a power source, it probably has an upper bound on its accomplishments before people say BULLSHIT, but that upper bound is significantly above what actual humans can reliably do and more in the realm of action heroes and in some cases even certain varieties of low sfx superpowers.

[RadiantPhoenix]

IMO, mundane means things that real life humans could do.

That's a definition, but nobody except crazy people (i.e. idiots who nerf fighters cause REALISM and also think such fighters are balanced) would ever try to defend mundane based on that definition. Mundane is really just a power source - it's a theme your abilities ride on. As Frank has mentioned elsewhere, it is a power source that invites stealth nerfs cause REALISM, and that makes it fairly unversatile. As a power source, it probably has an upper bound on its accomplishments before people say BULLSHIT, but that upper bound is significantly above what actual humans can reliably do and more in the realm of action heroes and in some cases even certain varieties of low sfx superpowers.

I don't consider it a power source on the level of a non-minion character class; I consider it a set of abilities that every character should have access to.

[rasmuswagner]

Exalted is a gold mine of "mundane" (human capabilities taken to 11!!!!) abilities. The entire solar charm set is about being a super-capable human bing (except fora a very few self-sufficiency charms).

[tussock]

some things that Extraordinary Powers can't really accomplish:

1) Magic -
2) Teleportation -
3) Polymorphing -
4) Messing with Time -
5) Fate/Destiny/Luck Shenanigans -
6) Souls -

Aren't all of those basically wrong?
1) There's no reason a monk's super-speed that he got by training can't stay supernatural and stop working in an AMF. Things likely shouldn't be spell-like abilities for flavour sake, but a supernatural effects that greatly extend mundane ones seem fine.

2) IRL physical particles jump strait through the whole planet when they move fast enough. Speed and teleportation really are the same thing, so Cpt. Fast can totally just zip through walls and even all the way to China through Earth's core if they need to.

3) Ulfwerners. Bearsarks. It's mythologically standard that if you wear a bear skin and act like a bear and know all about bears you can become a literal bear in combat. Yes, a camera might capture a man in a skin cloak with crazy strength, but the people there will perceive a bear. What do cameras know anyway? They can't even see Vampires.

4) Star-Trek and Superman say time travel is a property of relativistic speeds, or at least using warp engines in strong gravity fields. Gadgeteer time-travel is more common, but raw speed works in a lot of stories.

5) Lucky is a pretty standard mundane-guy trick. It's been the reason Rogues get high hit points since AD&D. Wizards know little charms to weaken attacks, Clerics are protected from all things by their faith, Fighters are hard as nails, and successful Thieves just keep on getting luckier.

6) OK, now I'm stuck. Mundane people do get folk to come back from the dead in myth and modern comics, but generally by being overheard by a deity who takes pity on them (or a fiend who wants something in return).

Active deities and portal keys and a variety of gadgets and super-weapons do help.

[Wrathzog]

Aren't all of those basically wrong?

Probably. I guess a more accurate description would have been, "Abilities that the Extraordinary power source probably can't do because I can't think of ways to explain it or because gaining this ability actually means tapping into another power source."
But that's just my lack of imagination.

also, we're not playing science fiction so stuff like the theory of relativity isn't something we should be using to explain mechanics. Concepts like that aren't even going to exist in D&D because high level magic disproves the fuck out of it.

[Username17]

It's simple, I want to play D&D, play a Fighter, and be completely viable from levels 1-20. I would like to do this by Expanding what the Fighter can do as opposed to simply neutering everything else (like 4E did).

This is dumb. At 20th level you have two choices and two choices only:

• Get some fucking phlebtonium.
• Be an animal companion.

There is no option 3 where you remain recognizably a "fighter" and continue adventuring at high level without being a drain on party resources and a negligible contributor to anything outside of putting up damage numbers. The other characters may put up with your bullshit for the same reason they put up with the Druid's legendary bear, but you'll never be a real character at that level.

And to see exactly why this is necessarily true, let's consider two characters who have as a signature ability the ability to leap: John Carter and Clark Kent. John Carter jumps stupidly, physics defyingly high without the use of phlebtonium, Clark Kent has Kryptonian solar-powered telekinesis and has as big a helping of phlebtonium as he chooses to serve himself.

Now let's consider a floating fortress. It might be "quite high" and then John Carter can jump onto it. It might be higher still and be beyond even John Carter's formidable jumping abilities to reach. And there exists a version of Superman who can likewise jump to the first platform and not to the second (the one from the Max Fleischer cartoons). But there also exists a higher level version of Superman for whom the higher floating fortress is equally reachable (the one from the Bruce Timm cartoons, for example).

And yes, you could claim that you personally have a larger appetite for cognitive dissonance than most and you personally don't see why you can't play a higher level John Carter who can simply jump to the higher floating fortress. But when you say that you are probably actually lying, but more to the point you are completely missing what is going on here. Which is that whatever your appetite for cognitive dissonance happens to be, it's still finite, and there's still going to be a limit of some kind beyond which John Carter cannot jump no matter how many levels he attempts to gain.

And that is a serious fucking problem, because both Clark Kent and John Carter have issues where it would be super nice to go from Earth to Mars or vice versa, and there exists a higher level version of Superman who can simply make that distance (the one from New52 Action Comics #14, for example). And I don't fucking care how much cognitive dissonance you claim to be able to accept, there is no fucking way that any John Carter of any supposed level is ever going to be able to jump from Barsoom to Earth or vice versa without having a Ninth Ray Device do literally 100% of the work.

To an extent, the people saying that Fighters either should or should not be limited to one power level or the next are arguing matters of taste and claiming that other people have bad aesthetics. But you have to understand that the Wrathzogs of this world are the people being the assholes here, because they are the people who are demanding that everyone else accept contradictory aesthetics: characters who can do things normal people can't without having phlebtonium that allows them to do things normal people can't.

-Username17

[Mistborn]

To an extent, the people saying that Fighters either should or should not be limited to one power level or the next are arguing matters of taste and claiming that other people have bad aesthetics. But you have to understand that the Wrathzogs of this world are the people being the assholes here, because they are the people who are demanding that everyone else accept contradictory aesthetics: characters who can do things normal people can't without having phlebtonium that allows them to do things normal people can't.

This is basically what I've been saying only with less nice words.

Given how off topic and generally shitty the last few pages are I think I'm going to start a new thread.

[John Magnum]

"Expanding what the Fighter can do" definitionally involves either giving the Fighter phlebotinum or completely ignoring the meaning of the words "mundane" and "supernatural". Setting aside the fact that "Fighter" is a fucking stupid concept for a class in a game like D&D where everyone in the entire game fights and the "Fighter" class is actually defined more by which combat styles he doesn't have access to, if you expand what he's capable of then you are either letting him tap into more power sources or you are putting your pants on your head and saying that extraplanar travel and fireballs are "mundane".

[Wrathzog]

they are the people who are demanding that everyone else accept contradictory aesthetics: characters who can do things normal people can't without having phlebtonium that allows them to do things normal people can't.

There is nothing wrong with that. I am not asking for characters who pretend to be normal doing things that normal people can't do without assistance. I am asking for characters who are straight up exceptional who can do things that normal people can't and they also happen to do it without any sort of assistance.

No, I am not asking for characters to go beyond the realm of reason. Yes, there ARE limits to a non-magical character. I've done the devil's advocate thing for this debate, I've listed half a dozen things that I just don't think can be done without magical assistance in a D&D paradigm.

But what I do want is for a non-magical characters to be able to perform all the way up to the very brink of insanity. So, we don't just have a dude that can jump like 4 feet, we have a dude who can jump a thousand. We don't just have a dude who can punch through wood, he can punch through Steel. He uppercuts flying dragons in half and all he needed to do to be able to do it was lots of Squats and Uppercuts.

and while Dragon Uppercutter can't necessarily fly to Mt. Doom on his own, it's not like he's just going to say "FUCK MY SHITTY LIFE" if he finds out that his next quest is in that area. He's probably just going to uppercut a dragon and force it to fly him there. That is completely within the bounds of his power, even if it means that he has to think outside of his character sheet to achieve it.

SO, IN CONCLUSION, I disagree with like 70% of what Frank's said. I consider the idea that "you must be this Magical to play D&D," to be arbitrary. And... being limited in some way is not the end of the world.

Also, how's the Tome Fighter fit into all of this? I've been wondering.

-e- I said all that stuff and didn't really make a point at all... hurm.

[RadiantPhoenix]

they are the people who are demanding that everyone else accept contradictory aesthetics: characters who can do things normal people can't without having phlebtonium that allows them to do things normal people can't.

There is nothing wrong with that. I am not asking for characters who pretend to be normal doing things that normal people can't do without assistance. I am asking for characters who are straight up exceptional who can do things that normal people can't and they also happen to do it without any sort of assistance.

and while Dragon Uppercutter can't necessarily fly to Mt. Doom on his own, it's not like he's just going to say "FUCK MY SHITTY LIFE" if he finds out that his next quest is in that area. He's probably just going to uppercut a dragon and force it to fly him there. That is completely within the bounds of his power.

Define 'assistance'

[virgil]

I have to ask, why are we still caring about what grognards want? We've beaten that dead horse so hard that we're just stirring the glue now. Half the reason they argue is because we give them an opportunity by asking whether fighters should become obsolete; you know the answer, Frank knew the answer. The point of this damn thread was to point that out; don't ask if we can do it, don't ask whether they'd like it, just do it. Unless it's centaurs, you're generally not going to have people hounding you for not including something unless you rub it in their face what you're doing.

[Wrathzog]

Define 'assistance'

Good Catch.

Clarification:
Assistance in the first quote corresponds with Power Sources. Or, Phlebtonium, as some people call it.

[Avoraciopoctules]

I have to ask, why are we still caring about what grognards want? We've beaten that dead horse so hard that we're just stirring the glue now.

Grognards can be really fun to troll, but you need to know what they care about to do it effectively.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Define 'assistance'

Good Catch.

Clarification:
Assistance in the first quote corresponds with Power Sources. Or, Phlebtonium, as some people call it.

So, being Kryptonian is getting assistance, but having a dragon fly you somewhere isn't? That's a really counter-intuitive definition.

[Username17]

But what I do want is for a non-magical characters to be able to perform all the way up to the very brink of insanity. So, we don't just have a dude that can jump like 4 feet, we have a dude who can jump a thousand. We don't just have a dude who can punch through wood, he can punch through Steel. He uppercuts flying dragons in half and all he needed to do to be able to do it was lots of Squats and Uppercuts.

Do you not understand how shitty and small you've made your "ultimate badass"? Jumping a thousand feet isn't high level, it's generously a fourth level spell (dimension door). Punching through steel, even punching through adamantine is just a pile of damage in the 10-30 point range, and lightning bolt is still a 3rd level spell. Killing a dragon stone cold dead in one shot and maybe two or three rolls is just a multi-step save-or-die and phantasmal killer is a 4th level spell.

The "very brink of insanity" as you've just described it is just some 3rd and 4th level spell effects with maybe a caster level of about 10. When you're using hyperbole of the supposedly crazy outer limits of what you want that you don't even think you can get other people on board with... you are still describing a character who is 10th level on the outside.

And that is why the mundane character is an inherently limited concept in character level. Even the people who claim to want to play it at high level cannot describe a single thing they want it to do that actually marks it as high level. Except of course for "kill monsters that have the [High Level] tag", but even in that context they cannot really describe that combat in a way that isn't a 4e style palette swap of a low level combat.

-Username17

[virgil]

And that is why the mundane character is an inherently limited concept in character level. Even the people who claim to want to play it at high level cannot describe a single thing they want it to do that actually marks it as high level. Except of course for "kill monsters that have the [High Level] tag", but even in that context they cannot really describe that combat in a way that isn't a 4e style palette swap of a low level combat.

It is a bit disappointing when people say they support extreme mundane types and pull up 3rd to 4th level effects. When I think high-level Charles Atlas, I think Disc World's Lu-Tze, who literally steps between seconds because he trained. I think of Kratos punching his way back to the land of the living, Batman dodging Darkseid's undodgeable Omega Blasts, Pecos Bill lassoing twisters, killing with a single phrase, and even Flex Mentallo turning the Pentagon into a circle with sufficient flexing. With those standards, jumping to another planet or dominating hordes with a winning smile are not out of reach. I acknowledge that there are people who will flip tables and quit when presented such actions without the support of phlebotinum, and largely accept that.

[Username17]

And that is why the mundane character is an inherently limited concept in character level. Even the people who claim to want to play it at high level cannot describe a single thing they want it to do that actually marks it as high level. Except of course for "kill monsters that have the [High Level] tag", but even in that context they cannot really describe that combat in a way that isn't a 4e style palette swap of a low level combat.

It is a bit disappointing when people say they support extreme mundane types and pull up 3rd to 4th level effects. When I think high-level Charles Atlas, I think Disc World's Lu-Tze, who literally steps between seconds because he trained. I think of Kratos punching his way back to the land of the living, Batman dodging Darkseid's undodgeable Omega Blasts, killing with a single phrase, and even Flex Mentallo turning the Pentagon into a circle with sufficient flexing.

So your solution to supposedly "high level" Charles Atlas characters being assigned 4th level spell effects, is to give them fifth level spell effects? I'll agree that is higher level in effect, but it's still not getting you to level 11.

-Username17

[RadiantPhoenix]

Do you not understand how shitty and small you've made your "ultimate badass"? Jumping a thousand feet isn't high level, it's generously a fourth level spell (dimension door). Punching through steel, even punching through adamantine is just a pile of damage in the 10-30 point range, and lightning bolt is still a 3rd level spell. Killing a dragon stone cold dead in one shot and maybe two or three rolls is just a multi-step save-or-die and phantasmal killer is a 4th level spell.

So, in other words, in order to actually be high level with jumping, rending, and killing, you have to be able to:

• (Equivalent spells listed)
• Jump from Asmodeus' throne in Baator to the top of the Spire in the Outlands in a single bound (in a single round), carrying your entire army in your arms, and land on a dime through any conceivable interference (other than your target not existing or something, and possibly even that) (one application of Wish) (Note that these locations are on different planes, and that the top of the Spire is in the center of a super- antimagic field)
• Tear a hole in the planet big enough to pull someone out from the core (Using Freedom to remove Imprisonment)
• Kill any number of the people you wish (who are below name level) in a single flex of your mighty biceps (basic CR guidelines)

and similar feats?
Or something?

[virgil]

So your solution to supposedly "high level" Charles Atlas characters being assigned 4th level spell effects, is to give them fifth level spell effects? I'll agree that is higher level in effect, but it's still not getting you to level 11.

Time Stop is a fifth level spell effect? Self-Resurrection (clone?) and Mass Charm Monster (dominating hordes with a smile) can be done by level 9 casters? So I missed with the killing joke (which could be a mass power word kill?) and Omega Beam dodging (though Batman makes a good example for constant-on foresight), and thus I'm being shoved the same corner as Wrathzog?

EDIT: If you had a wizard who could cast all that stuff, people wouldn't be calling him low level. Necromancers are minion masters that become hard to kill and throw death effects around, and are considered a concept that can go to higher levels; and none of what they bring to the table are out of reach for those with Charles Atlas powers.

[Username17]

So your solution to supposedly "high level" Charles Atlas characters being assigned 4th level spell effects, is to give them fifth level spell effects? I'll agree that is higher level in effect, but it's still not getting you to level 11.

Time Stop is a fifth level spell effect?

You didn't describe time stop. With time stop, you pop out of time and pop back in with an army of summoned monsters or death clouds. You just described hopping out of time for movement (which is dimension door, and thus a fourth level spell), or acting more often (which while arguably too good, is 3e haste, which came in at 3rd level).

Self-Resurrection (clone?)

Again, you didn't describe clone. You described having an adventure sufficient to go up in level and coming back from the dead. You know, raise dead, which is a fifth level spell. You didn't even put caveats in like "even if your body has been desecrated to make it harder to bring you back" (which would at least make it a 7th level effect). You certainly didn't put in caveats like "doesn't have to spend an entire adventure punching things to regain lost XP". Running around punching things was definitely part of your description, even though that is what defines the weakest life restoration effects in D&D.

and Mass Charm Monster (dominating hordes with a smile) can be done by level 9 casters?

You didn't even mention this one previously, so I don't know where you are going with it.

So I missed with the killing joke (which could be a mass power word kill?)

While the Killing Joke might be power word: kill, it could just as easily be slay living. Also, power word: kill is an incredibly shitty spell that people don't take. If you were really generous, you might stat it up as circle of death and have it be a sixth level spell. But really, it doesn't kill people instantly, and in the episode they crow about about how it can be used to kill people at nearly medium range ("up to 50 yards" is medium range with a caster level of 5). So we're probably looking at something more like miasma (a 4th level spell).

and Omega Beam dodging (though Batman makes a good example for constant-on foresight), and thus I'm being shoved the same corner as Wrathzog?

Dude: if you think making a saving throw and/or having Evasion involves a 9th level spell effect, I don't even know what to tell you.

-Username17