[3.75] I'm looking for some honest brutes

[bhu]

Basically I have some homebrew I want reviewed crunch wise, and I need some people who

A) Aren't familiar with me and thereby don't have said feelings possible clouding their judgement

B) Are willing to be outspoken and honest, but willing to say why. In other words to paraphrase a certain director "Don't just tell me I suck, tell me why I suck". If you think a particular mechanic is piss poor I'm hoping you'll be willing to put forth a more cogent argument than 'wtf is wrong with u noob, go die in a fire'. Discussion with others usually gives me better ideas than being solo.

C) Very patient as I have a possible mountain of material forthcoming. Some of it very absurd.

[Grek]

You came to the right place. Post your stuff.

[Kaelik]

So post it, but put that at the top, skipping the step where I click on a thread with no content.

[bhu]

We'll start with this:

Before the certain other boards crumpled I was beginning to kick around some ideas for a 3.5 redux. My current thoughts for a class chassis might look something like this:

WARRIOR
Alignment Unrestricted
Hit Points 10 plus Con Modifier at 1st Level, and 5 plus Con Modifier at each additional Level
Base Attack Bonus +2
Good Saves Fortitude
Beginning Skills Choose any 8
Skill Points 6 plus Int Modifier at 1st Level and each additional level
Maneuvers 2 at 1st Level and 1 at each additional Level
Beginning Attributes +2 Str*, +1 Dex, +2 Con, +1 Int, +0 Wis, -1 Cha, +2 Distributable
Class Bonuses Every 10th Level

A quick run down for this:

Class There will be 7 Base Classes: Cleric (Cleric, Druid, Archivist, etc), Rogue, Scout (fighter/thief), Trickster (Beguiler, Bard, Assassin, Lurker, Ranger), Warmage (Paladin, Duskblade, Hexblade, Crusader, Psychic Warrior, Barbarian), Warrior (Fighter, ToB), and Wizard (most psionics or arcane casting). There will be various subclasses for each with their own benefits/drawbacks.

Alignment The Alignment you choose isn't so much a reflection on your behavior (though it is to some point), it's a determination of which of the Powers That Be you serve or draw power from or are Allied to. Clerics for example will have restricted alignments dependent on what Deity they serve as said Deity will not allow certain things of their representatives. Fighters wont because everyone hires Fighters. It's also a determiner on how certain class abilities affect you.

Hit Points Low end will be 6+Con/3+Con, mid range is 8+Con/4+Con, and high end is 10+Con/5+Con.

Base Attack Bonus BAB is +0/+1/+2, and doesn't go up with level. Will explain more later on much of this.

Good Saves You get 1, 2, or 3 Good Saves. A Good Save is Stat Bonus +2 instead of just Stat Bonus, and also doesn't increase with Level.

Beginning Skills Feats, Skill, Skill Tricks, and Armor/Weapon Proficiencies will all be rolled into Skills. The more ranks you have in a skill the more abilities you have with it. Having ranks in a Skill makes you Proficient, and you add Stat Bonus +2 to Checks as opposed to just the Stat Bonus. Beginning skills range from 6, to 8 to 10. You get to choose that many and they are considered Class Skills. Optionally some classes may require a skill (for example instead of saying 'choose any 8', Cleric may say 'choose any 8, one of which must be Knowledge: Religion'). After first level you may spend skill points to get another class skill.

Skill Points Range is 4+Int/6+Int/8+Int

Class Abilities Range is 2/3/4 at 1st Level plus 1 per Level. Class Abilities vary by name depending on Class (Maneuvers for Fighters, Spells for Wizards, etc.). You may also upgrade one power per level, and there will be a list of generic everyman powers any class can take.

Beginning Attributes Beginning Attributes depend on class. Instead of a Score you have a modifier that applies to Checks, Save DC's etc. The Attribute marked with a * is your Classes Primary Attribute. The Save DC etc. of class powers are based off this Modifier. Distributable is the amount of points you can break up among your abilities at first level to custom modify your PC. They range from +1 to +3, and can be assigned to one attribute or broken up as you wish (for example if you have a +3, you can raise your +2 Str to a +5, or raise three attributes by +1 each).

Class Bonuses You gain a Bonus every 6, 8, or 10 Levels (I'm thinking of just restricting this to 10 levels period). Bonuses are increasing an Attribute, increasing the Bonus to a Class Ability/Good Save/ BAB/Class Skill


Other things:

Monsters will be done as classes as well

At some point fighters and other traditionally suck classes will get the benefit of supernatural abilities, or mundane abilities that let them fudge with wizards. Most Wizards wont have nearly the power they used to anyway since their class abilities will be spells. Since they get say 4 at 1st level, and 1 each level after, they wont have nearly the endless list they used to. Unsure what to do with the fighters yet though. Options include building magic items into the class powers list for said classes, giving them the option for supernatural abilities due to permanently being enchanted, or something else.

PrC's will be a powers list. As in if you want to take a PrC, and you meet the qualifications, it just gives you a subset of powers you now have access to. If multiclassing is felt necessary it will be handled the same way.

[Grek]

Seems pretty non-scaling. Which may or may not be good. I think we'd need to see the maneuvers and some info on how enemies scale in order to tell.

[bhu]

PC's pick a race and a class, so why not monsters? For example you pick a monster (Bullywug), and then a monster class (Ambush Predator, Unfeeling Brute, Tribal Shaman, something that defines the concept you want). One of the problems with monsters in determining CR as compared to PC's is that monsters so often have dead levels. This way CR is easy. It's equal to your Hit Dice. This still leaves me with the problem of LA though as some monsters will obviously not fit this mold (though maybe I can just make them NPC only). When I do the monster races I intend to do sample characters. For example a 3.5 ogre has 4 hit dice, so a 'standard' 3.75 ogre would be an ogre with 4 levels of unfeeling brute (or whatever class is best to represent their archetype). That way people can make their own up, or just use the pregen. Templates will be handled in a manner similar to PrCs.

[Grek]

I was more talking about how the CR system (or equivalent) is supposed to work. How many CR 1 dudes is a CR 5 dude supposed to be able to take in a fight? At what level do we expect a party of 4 characters to be able to take out a CR 10 boss monster? That sort of thing. Even if it's the same as in D&D, you have to say that in order for us to evaluate your work.

Seeing the monster classes would also help I guess, but knowing how fast levels are supposed to scale is a big deal.

[bhu]

Ah. Much of what I'm considering for 3.75 is still in planning stages. Powers though don't scale with level. Remember above in the class chassis where it says 'You may also upgrade one power per level'? Thats how they scale. For example when you first take a Burning Hands spell at 1st level maybe it takes a full round to cast, provokes an AoO, has V/S/M components, a range of melee, allows for save/spell resistance, duration of instantaneous, and does 1d6 fire damage plus the appropriate stat modifier. When you upgrade it you can do one of several things:

Shorten casting time, make it so it no longer provokes an AoO, use one less component, increase the range, increase the Save DC, increase the damage, or provide some other effect similar to the old metamagic feats. I could write a better example but it's 4 am and i need sleep bad. I'll try to do better tomorrow.

[Kaelik]

I think the first thing you need to do is stop calling it 3.75, since your goal is to completely erase everything that 3e D&D ever had from your game.

Monster diversity is going to be butchered by your system. The complete lack of scaling drastically changes the structure of the game. And if you are going to force people to spend point to upgrade Burning Hands then I can only imagine that any and every possible variation of a spell I actually want to cast, like Illusory Pit or Stinking Cloud will just be removed from the game.

[bhu]

In what way do you believe it kills monster diversity?

[Foxwarrior]

When monsters don't have classes, then each monster can be designed as a special snowflake. When you mix and match race/class, people can say "oh, this is an Unfeeling Brute, I know what those can do". The number of monsters total you can create with 10 races and 10 classes is 100 times the number of levels, but the number of monsters people have to fight before knowing all of them is much closer to 10 or 20 times a fraction of the number of levels.

[Username17]

In what way do you believe it kills monster diversity?

In abstract, having your monster come in two "parts" is just as arbitrary as having them come in one part or seven. More parts legoed together is obviously more work to make monsters, but there are also advantages in that procedurally generated content can cover a much larger playing space with much less actual writing than can explicit content.

But the specifics of what you're doing, where the "class" of a monster is wholly independent from what the monster is... that's something that has obvious problems. Sure, your example was "Bullywug", which is basically just a dude and should obviously be using whatever mechanics you use for "Lizardfolk" or "Elf". But let's take instead the example of "Basilisk".

What you've committed yourself to is for Basilisks to be a race that is of mild import that is then paired with a class such as "Ambush Hunter" or "Tribal Shaman" that works to help define the monster in actual play. Ho boy. To the extent that a Basilisk Tribal Shaman is different from a Basilisk Unfeeling Brute, the Basilisk is to an at least identical extent not different from a Bullywug. Because a Bullywug can be an Unfeeling Brute or an Ambush Hunter or whatever too. And it will be different from another Bullywug to the same degree as one Basilisk is to another, and it will be the same as the fucking Basilisk to an identical degree as well.

If you vary class choices within a monster you increase variation within a race of monsters, but you decrease the variation between two races of monsters the same amount. And if we're at the point where I don't care if I'm facing a Basilisk or not because the important information is whether he's a Tribal Shaman, the game is much diminished.

-Username17

[bhu]

Well one of the points of this discussion was to see what people objected to before I started writing it out


There will be exceptions. Monsters that have animal intelligence or near animal intelligence will obviously not be casters unless Awakened. I'm considering making it so that at each level you can choose from the list of class or universal powers, or from a list of racial abilities as well. Would that help?

[Foxwarrior]

The list of racial abilities would certainly help make a Basilisk Unfeeling Brute different from an Elf Unfeeling Brute, yes.

But keep in mind that FrankTrollman said "the same amount", so you'll probably be wanting Basilisks and Beholders to be more dependent on their racial abilities than on their classes.

[bhu]

Which they most likely will. Here's a list of possible subclasses for the main classes I'm fiddling about with. I'd like opinions on what people would like added and what they'd like to see gone.


The Cleric: You provide the party with access to the help of the Gods or other Powers.
Subclasses:
Demigod Stats and abilities vary depending on your Divine Parent. Demigods are the children of Gods, Fiends, Angels, or other powerful entities that are worshiped. Formerly known as Favored Soul.
Monk Monks are the members of the clergy who remove themselves from the concerns of daily life to study their religion as well as various other subjects. Formerly known as Archivist
Oracle An Oracle is the mouthpiece of the Gods, the Dead, or some other agency. They are consulted after being possessed by whichever entity is responsible for their condition.
Priest A priest is a non combatant clergy authorized to perform the rituals of their religion. Formerly known as Cleric
Shaman A Shaman is a worshiper of the natural world as opposed to a member of an organized religion. They worship the elements, nature itself, or various spirits. Formerly the Spirit Shaman, Shugenja and Druid.
Medium You allow Gods, spirits, or other beings to possess you and work their will upon the world. Formerly known as the Binder.
Physician A Physician is a professional healer and exorcist. Formerly known as the Healer, Apostle of Peace.
Incarnate You physically manifest the powers of specific alignments.
Evangelist You know the secret language of creation. Formerly known as the Truenamer.


The Rogue: A skill based character your role in the party is the expert, either in local politics, as a safecracker, a smuggler, or some other role requiring special expertise. You also provide some backup in fights but are not a trained fighter like the Warrior.
Subclasses:
Acrobat The Acrobats job is to get into places others can't, either because of the extreme height, or tight spaces, or other odd problem.
Bandit Bandits are your pirates, highwaymen, or other thieves that specialize in killing or assaulting others for money before fleeing by horseback or vehicle. A thief who steals by violence.
Pilferer A thief who steals by means other than violence, such as pickpockets, purse snatchers, etc.
Locksmith The Locksmith is an expert in traps and locks, able to find and defeat both.
Smuggler Smugglers specialize in fencing stolen merchandise or getting their hands on such. They know customs, laws, who to bribe, etc. Also usually a decent forger or at least knows one.
Spy You are a paid infiltrator who seeks out and finds information or brings down organizations from within.
Confidence Man You are a professional scam artist. Or a politician.
Chemist You can manufacture drugs, poisons, and materials for arson or other activities.
Investigator You are a sort of private detective/snoop. Unlike the spy who infiltrates organization to get information, you are usually called upon to solve some sort of problem vexing the community.


The Scout: Somewhere between the Warrior and the Rogue you are still primarily a military man who provides combat help, but you also have taken on less wholesome assignments such as sabotage and assassination.
Subclasses:
Beast Master You train animals for combat or for tracking or labor. They also assist you in defense if you've been nice to them.
Saboteur Saboteurs specialize in arson, demolitions and sapping. They bring down walls and fortifications.
Savage You are a primitive tribal warrior of some kind.
Thug You are an urban brute, cheap hired muscle.
Tracker You are a bounty hunter that specializes in tracking people down and bringing them back for trial (or killing them if necessary).
Ninja
Swashbuckler
Stalker You specialize in killing a specific type of opponent, such as a racial enemy.
Guerrilla You specialize in stealthy combat in a certain type of terrain.

The Trickster: You are much like the Rogue but have dabbled in some sort of magical power as well. You may be able to increase your physical abilities or cloud minds to better get your job done.
Subclasses:
Assassin You are a hired murderer who studies arcane magic on the side as a way of getting to your targets who are mages.
Bard Bards are musicians and information gatherers. As entertainers they get invited to many places they otherwise wouldn't have access to.
Beguiler The Beguiler uses charms and compulsions to control opponents.
Lurker The Lurker backs up their criminal tendencies with psychic powers.
Ranger The Ranger is a wilderness scout with abilities gained by making the appropriate sacrifices to the powers of nature.
Mindspy Telepath who steals others secrets psionically.
Changeling You use illusion and minor transformations to impersonate other species or individuals.
Factotum Jack of all trades.
Parasite You drain power from others for your own use (formerly Spellthief and Ur-Priest).


The Warmage: Primarily a trained soldier you have begun training in magic far earlier than the warrior and actively incorporate it into your fighting style. You provide combat help but you back it up with the occasional spell or psionic power.
Subclasses:
Berserker You are a warrior possessed by Gods, Fiends, Spirits or some other entity that causes you to become enraged in battle. Formerly the Barbarian, Totemist.
Crusader You are the holy warrior of a specific sect in a religion. Formerly Crusader, Paladin, Soulborn, Sohei.
Hexblade You are cursed from birth by some dark power that turns out to be pretty handy in fights.
Mageblade You are a warrior (generally infantry) who backs up your abilities with Arcane powers. Formerly Swordsage, Duskblade, traditional Gish.
Psychic Warrior You are a warrior who backs up your abilities with Psychic powers.
Zoanthrope You change into a beast in combat.
Soulknife You form weapons and possibly armor from your mind.
Arcane Archer Ranged Mageblade.
Channeler Buff spells cast on you are more effective than normal.


The Warrior: You are a mercenary, or a soldier, or a martial artist of some kind. You contribute to the party by being a skilled physical combatant who does damage primarily through martial skill. At higher levels you may get some magical enhancements or have been taught a few skills to help you keep up but you're mostly a mundane warrior.
Subclasses:
Archer Warrior specializing in some form of ranged combat.
Cavalry Warrior who specializes in fighting from horseback. Formerly Knight.
Commander Warrior who specializes in tactics (and strategy if he lives long enough) and is often the leader of small groups of mercenaries. Formerly Marshall.
Infantry Warrior who does the tough job of fighting it out hand to hand.
Martial Adept Warrior who studies some form of fighting at a school. Formerly Monk, Warblade.
Pikeman Infantry who specializes in using a Reach weapon.
Musketeer You use guns or similar magical devices.
Gladiator You fight in pits or arenas with odd weapons for the amusement of others.
Grenadier You're the poor fool who delights in fighting with explosives and other chemical weapons.


The Wizard: You are an arcane caster of some kind, providing the party with access to magic.
Subclasses:
Magician A Magician gains access to arcane powers through study and ritual. Formerly Wizard.
Nephilim A Nephilim gains access to arcane powers due to their parent having mated outside their species. Formerly Sorcerer, Dragonfire Adept.
Psion A Psion is born with the ability to manipulate the world with the power of his mind. Formerly Ardent Psion, Erudite, Wilder.
Tapper A Tapper gains access to arcane power by calling on existing powers such as certain Planes, elemental forces, or the secrets of Creation. Formerly Shadowcaster.
Witch A Witch gains access to arcane powers via pacts made with powerful beings. Less like worship, and more like a contract. Formerly Warlock, Dragon Shaman.
Artificer You create magical items.
Necromancer You gain magic via stealing it from the dead.
Transmogrifist You specialize in polymorph magic.
Summoner You summon one or more critters and buff, buff, buff away.

[Grek]

I'm worried about the Warrior's subclasses. If we do a line by line comparison to, say, the Wizard subclasses, and ask "Does it make sense for <warrior subclass> to replicate the powers of <wizard subclass>? What about vis versa?" then we get the following results:

A Magician is almost certainly going to have some sort of ranged combat ability. Even if it's fluffed as magic missiles rather than arrows. But an Archer probably does not have magic. Winner: Wizard.
Nephilim don't need to know how to ride horses. But riding horses also doesn't make your mother a succubus. Winner: None.
A Commander probably isn't psionic. But a Psion can probably command people with his mind. Winner: Wizard.
Infantry cannot tap into the Shadow Plane. But a Tapper can probably do stuff in melee, even if it's Burning Hands. Winner: Wizard.
A Witch probably doesn't learn a martial art through their pact with the devil. But a martial artist probably doesn't make pacts with the devil via kung-fu. Winner: None.
A Pikeman does not get to make magic items. Artifacers could probably make magic pikes. Winner: Wizard.
Necromancers don't get guns. But Musketeers cannot do necromancy. Winner: None.
Gladiators cannot turn into things. Transmorgrifists can totally fight lions in a stadium. Winner: Wizard.
Grenadiers can totally summon stuff with special grenades (see Pokemon), but Summoners can probably summon things that explode. Winner: Both.

As you can see, it comes out rather heavily in favour of the Wizard. And at a glance, it doesn't look like other class matchups are much better to the warrior.

My recomendation is to combine Warrior and Warmage into a single class with the following subclasses:
Berserker Warrior who is infused with RAGE by angry spirits.
Crusader Warrior who is blessed by holy spirits with magic protection.
Hexblade Warrior who can also cast illusions and curses.
Mageblade Warrior who can make his sword burst into flames.
Alchemist Warrior who fights with explosives and guns that he makes.
Soulknife Warrior who channels psychic power into a psychic weapon.
Cavalry Warrior who rides around on something awesome.
Commander Warrior who is also a bunch of smaller warriors.
Warseer Warrior who can also see into the future.

[bhu]

Warriors will still get magic. It's just that they'll focus more on skills than powers, while wizrds focus more on powers than skills. Warmages being traditional gishes will be about even. I'm just deciding on how warriors get their stuff, My current consideration is simply building magic items or permanent enhancements into the class. i.e. the warrior isn't paying for a magical sword, one he opts to but the magical sword power, he simply has one. He just found it in the last fight that gave him the appropriate xp to get leveled up.

I'm limited a little due to offline problems until the 22nd and then I'll hopefully be able to wrtie up more on how skills powers work.

[Cynic]

Magical skills are just not the same as powers.

If BMX bandit can do sick super jumps, he still doesn't beat angel summoner who can fly on the wings of his angels.

BMX bandit distance jumped < Angel Summoner distance flown.

Skills and magic are not comparable to each other.

[koz]

Is there any reason why your warrior actually has to be designed to require magical gear? If it's for the numbers, either design the monsters to not have such numbers, or give the numbers directly without forcing people to spend ability slots just to keep up with what the system expects. If it's for the cool powers, how is this:

Flaming Sword
Hey guys, look what I found!
Rules: You get a sword of fire for no cost.

different meaningfully from this:

My Sword Is Always On Fire
Lighting my farts on fire was just the beginning!
Rules: Any sword you hold is always on fire unless you tell it otherwise.

? I mean, I think it's much less insulting to the poor warrior if he actually gets the awesomesauce to light swords on fire inherently, as opposed to forcing the plot to accommodate his finding of a magic sword (however unlikely) which he couldn't even have made himself?

Also, why not just give warriors the ability to craft magic weapons instead of the spellcasters?

[bhu]

Magical skills are just not the same as powers.

If BMX bandit can do sick super jumps, he still doesn't beat angel summoner who can fly on the wings of his angels.

BMX bandit distance jumped < Angel Summoner distance flown.

Skills and magic are not comparable to each other.

Unless the mage can't get flight until the same level the warrior can. One of the concepts behind this I'm thinking of in an attempt to better balance the system is that all classes get access to the same power at the same time. For example lets say flight is a 4th level class power. Any class having access to flight, gets it at level 4, regardless of what that class actually is. The way things currently work, all powers will basically be available in a weak form at Level 1. At higher levels you can upgrade them to do newer and better things. For example at first level you get a generic Fire spell that lets you start fires. Eventually you can use it to cast fireballs or rain fire from the sky, or other effects. In short the power that you want to be most versatile is the one you choose initially on creation.

[bhu]

Is there any reason why your warrior actually has to be designed to require magical gear? If it's for the numbers, either design the monsters to not have such numbers, or give the numbers directly without forcing people to spend ability slots just to keep up with what the system expects. If it's for the cool powers, how is this:

Flaming Sword
Hey guys, look what I found!
Rules: You get a sword of fire for no cost.

different meaningfully from this:

My Sword Is Always On Fire
Lighting my farts on fire was just the beginning!
Rules: Any sword you hold is always on fire unless you tell it otherwise.

? I mean, I think it's much less insulting to the poor warrior if he actually gets the awesomesauce to light swords on fire inherently, as opposed to forcing the plot to accommodate his finding of a magic sword (however unlikely) which he couldn't even have made himself?

Also, why not just give warriors the ability to craft magic weapons instead of the spellcasters?

I'm considering pursuing the permanent magic enhancements more than the equipment idea honestly. People kind of pbjected to the idea in fluff of the fighter being a gish elsewhere when I had a gish class already (I'm asking about this in multiple places). It's almost like people want the fighter to be weak...

[Username17]

One of the concepts behind this I'm thinking of in an attempt to better balance the system is that all classes get access to the same power at the same time. For example lets say flight is a 4th level class power. Any class having access to flight, gets it at level 4, regardless of what that class actually is.

Well, that's kind of stupid.

The first and most obvious problem you have is that if you're giving out awesomesauce like flight, then you aren't sticking to the extremely low power levels that are required to make "Locksmith" or "Pikeman" an archetype which is remotely equal to something like "Mind Spy" or "Summoner". While you can claim that there is some sort of balance between the fact that the "Pikeman" gets access to Impale and the "Summoner" gets Summon Elemental instead, that is horse shit. Awesomesauce abilities like Summon Elemental are more useful and powerful than the entire "Pikeman" character concept. And they always will be.

But beyond that, you still have the issue that powers are individually much better or much worse depending on what resource management systems and other powers they are paired with. Personal Levitation is extremely powerful and useful for an "Archer" character, but basically useless for a "Cavalry" character. I would go so far as to say that Personal Levitation isn't even recognizable as the same ability in a character whose primary shtick is trying to stay out of melee range and laying down ranged attacks as it is in a character whose primary shtick is teaming up with a pet and making combined melee attacks with it. So patting yourself on the back because you've arbitrarily defined Personal Levitation as being the same level for both characters is basically just stupid.

Finally, what do you think Cohorts are? Once a character gets high enough level that they have lieutenants (even, perhaps especially summoned lieutenants like those available to the "Summoner" or "Necromancer"), they quite obviously have access to characters that are in effect a lower level than they are and a different class. So while you're busy patting yourself on the back for having ensured that everyone who gets Move Earth gets it at 6th level, remember that you've still committed yourself to having a "Summoner" who gets Call Greater Elemental at 9th level, and that the Greater Earth Elemental has fucking Move Earth! So the Summoner doesn't get Move Earth at the level that "everyone who gets it, gets it", he gets it at a later level because he gets it indirectly through minions. Even if it was somehow a good idea to ensure that no one gets an ability later on, it's completely unenforceable because of delegated authority.

But of course, it's not a good idea to make sure that no one ever gets an ability later than it comes online for anyone. And that is because of the evolving tactical landscape. A monster of level X is supposed to be challenging for characters of level X, which means that abilities to deal with its bullshit are supposed to be rationed in various ways. But against much higher level characters, that level X monster is supposed to be a speed bump. That means that the abilities to deal with that level X monster's bullshit are supposed to be easy to obtain at levels considerably higher than level X. What this implies is that while abilities like Cure Blindness can and should be rare at the level that blindness is supposed to be a barely handlable problem, at considerably higher level it should be much easier to get and therefore appear on many more lists.

-Username17

[bhu]

Calm down Frank. It's not patting myself on the back, it's making a statement, seeing how the audience reacts, and then deciding if I wish to re-adjust my plans based on their reactions. No point in writing stuff out if no one ever wants to use it. That's generally what this thread is for is hashing out ideas and getting a concrete idea of what i want to do before going to pursue the hours of writing necessary to do it.

[bhu]

Well it looks like I'll have to put this on pause as my hard drive is apparently dying from bad sectors. Back shortly once I get it fixed.

[tussock]

Here's a list of possible subclasses for the main classes I'm fiddling about with. I'd like opinions on what people would like added and what they'd like to see gone.

Huzzah! I have opinions out the wazoo. It's glorious. Bathe in it.

The Clerk: You provide administrative services to the celestial bureaucracy.
Prime jobs: Temple Knight (cleric), Green Knight (druid).
Sub-jobs: Cultist, Mystic, Grail Knight, ....

The Rogue: Fuck what the rules say, you can do everything.
Prime job: Rogue (rogue/bard/druid/fighter).
Sub-jobs: Thief, Acrobat, Scout, Performer, Noble, Crafter, ....

The Warrior: You need not the favour of the gods, the wisdom of ages, or your wits, which is fortuitous considering how little you have of any.
Prime job: Errant Knight (warblade/swordsage).
Sub-jobs: Ranger, Hero, Bearsark, Giant, General, ....

The Wizard: In days gone by knowledge found the win, which will now be mine.
Prime jobs: Summoner (conjuration/divination), Wizard (transmutation/abjuration).
Sub-jobs: Blaster, Necromancer, Illusionist, ....


Sub-jobs are talent sets, mostly social groups with alignment and other pointless story restrictions, take as many as you like from anyone's class that work together. Errant-Knight Noble, Errant-Knight Illusionist, Errant-Knight Scout-Mystic-Blaster-Hero are all fine. You only get the one prime-job though.

Plus, without standard table progressions it's not 3e anything, it's 4e with retro-fitted 3e names for the same flat go-nowhere nonsense.