Total Eclipse RPG

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dkfather
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Post by dkfather »

Avoraciopoctules wrote:
dkfather wrote:
Avoraciopoctules wrote:A less sleepy look, and this system looks seriously terrible. You get XP for rolling well, can spend 10 XP to level up, and levels range from 1 to 200.

I now kind of regret buying book 1 of this game when I could have spent that money on a loaf of bread instead.
You actually get XP for more than this. Doing well on a Skill attempt is one of four ways to gain XP. Progressing a mission by combat or trickery, defeating a designated key adversary (a "boss") and falling below 0 on Health, Conscious, or Morale are also ways of gaining experience. The idea of experience in the game is based on the life points, a concept that can be traced to middle ages Germany to describe victories and losses on the path to experience.
The problem with rewarding people long-term for rolling well is that you encourage them to roll for every minor thing possible. If jumping is a skill, you are mechanically incentivized to play like this is is Elder Scrolls and hold down the jump button with a rock, then go to sleep till next morning.

Let's say you crit and gain 1 XP when you roll 2 6s on 2d6. That means 1/36 times, you gain an experience points. If you just keep doing the same 1-round thing over and over again, you gain a level in 360 rounds.

It's the Elf Farming D&D problem, but writ much larger.
I would agree with this, but the game never had this problem in play testing. As a game master centered game, there is a limit to amount of gaminess that a good game master will allow. And if you have a bad game master, then I cannot see what good any rule will do.

Take for example making an attack. 1/36th of the time you make a role high enough to gain experience. From the play test notes the average combat lasted 42 rounds, so you probably will get an experience point if you attack every round. But then you need to immediately run and get into another combat and continue the process. The game lacks a system of re-spawning mobs so there is not endless targets to kills.

If you want to spend the day cutting lumber you roll once for success. That is 36 days for an experience point, nearly a year's work to advance a level. Not much joy there.

Very few non-combat skills allow quick turn around skill use. In fact, downtime use of skills can only amount to five or six rolls a month - more than a year for skill point increases. The fastest way to gain experience in fact is to have varied adventures where you flex your skills in creative ways to gain final objectives.

So here you have to ask yourself - if a bad player and a bad game master get together and agree to bend the rules to allow endless skill checks for the smallest things, how can the rules be written to save this? Play testing never revealed how to make a system idiot proof, only how to give good players a useful set of rules that they could modify and tweak to meet their own campaign uses.
DragonChild
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Post by DragonChild »

Welp, another game with giant problems with the rules, namely uneven, random advancement that players don't get to share in, and criticism is handled by INSULTING the people intelligent enough to see ("bad game master", "bad player").

Amazing how it's never "bad rules", or "bad designers".

These books really need warning stickers that just thinking about them can cause brain damage.
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Post by rasmuswagner »

Other than pdf-optimized rulebooks, which I like, and 200 levels of micro-advancement for the Zynga crowd, which I hate but is totally a valid direction, is there anything to distinguish this from Baby's First Post-D&D RPG (TM)?

Because it's marketed like BFPDD-RPG. "Roleplay, not roll-play!" and other 1993-isms are not doing your product any favors.
Every time you play in a "low magic world" with D&D rules (or derivates), a unicorn steps on a kitten and an orphan drops his ice cream cone.
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

Can you explain how the average combat lasts 42 rounds? What is going on there?
DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.
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dkfather
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Post by dkfather »

DragonChild wrote:Welp, another game with giant problems with the rules, namely uneven, random advancement that players don't get to share in, and criticism is handled by INSULTING the people intelligent enough to see ("bad game master", "bad player").

Amazing how it's never "bad rules", or "bad designers".

These books really need warning stickers that just thinking about them can cause brain damage.
Not sure how to respond to this because you do not provide citations of either claims. Remember, for every person who reads a game there are 50 who know the game is trash before they read it or play it. It is easier for me to address complaints from the first group because they can cite what did not work for them. The later people I can only thank them for their input and otherwise ignore them.
Last edited by dkfather on Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DragonChild
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Post by DragonChild »

The cite is how you began immediately blaming the game masters and players for a flaw in the rules. The flaw that you can just try to climb a wall over and over to level up, the flaw the the rules are not going to keep characters at even advancement because it's totally random, etc. What PURPOSE does giving people extra XP for rolling well serve? The only thing it does is encourage people to roll as often as they possibly can - that is actual effect, that is what the mechanic DOES. Why does the game include a mechanic to encourage people to roll as often as possible?
dkfather
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Post by dkfather »

...You Lost Me wrote:Can you explain how the average combat lasts 42 rounds? What is going on there?
Good question. I think it is because most battles in the play test groups were trying to exploit the system. A lot of well balanced battles consists of trying to gain the moral and positional advantage over an enemy to enable different members of an adventure party to carry out decisive morale or physical attacks. Most of the test adventures were not of the "defeat 10 Orcs and collect the treasure" variety and some involved finding hidden enemies, fighting an enemy in a crowd without being discovered, defeating a street gang in a brawl. I actually think a game master could have shorter encounters - just a lot of encounters in play test had backstory going on - for example searching for the enemy hidden in a group of students.
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

I'd have to actually play the system, but it really just sounds like your playtesters were being nice to the rules instead of trying to stretch your system.
DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.
Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.
dkfather
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Post by dkfather »

DragonChild wrote:The cite is how you began immediately blaming the game masters and players for a flaw in the rules. The flaw that you can just try to climb a wall over and over to level up, the flaw the the rules are not going to keep characters at even advancement because it's totally random, etc. What PURPOSE does giving people extra XP for rolling well serve? The only thing it does is encourage people to roll as often as they possibly can - that is actual effect, that is what the mechanic DOES. Why does the game include a mechanic to encourage people to roll as often as possible?
Except you cannot really do this unless you have a bad GM - and that could be said for any violation of the rules that is allowed by any GM in any game system. And as a competent player I do not require gaming the system to have fun.

I went shooting last weekend and fired a 100 meter barricade relay. The referee could have allowed me to move to the 5 meter line and shoot from there and I could have done it, but this sort of defeats the purpose of qualifying from 100 meters.
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Post by dkfather »

...You Lost Me wrote:I'd have to actually play the system, but it really just sounds like your playtesters were being nice to the rules instead of trying to stretch your system.
Could be. We had five teams -- I only ever met one but the rest at least let me see their tapes and their notes. I know play tests introduced things I would like to change back again so the system is not perfect and the next version of the rules have around 50 player suggested changes (most of them are wording to make the rules more friendly).
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

dkfather wrote:
DragonChild wrote:The cite is how you began immediately blaming the game masters and players for a flaw in the rules. The flaw that you can just try to climb a wall over and over to level up, the flaw the the rules are not going to keep characters at even advancement because it's totally random, etc. What PURPOSE does giving people extra XP for rolling well serve? The only thing it does is encourage people to roll as often as they possibly can - that is actual effect, that is what the mechanic DOES. Why does the game include a mechanic to encourage people to roll as often as possible?
Except you cannot really do this unless you have a bad GM - and that could be said for any violation of the rules that is allowed by any GM in any game system. And as a competent player I do not require gaming the system to have fun.

I went shooting last weekend and fired a 100 meter barricade relay. The referee could have allowed me to move to the 5 meter line and shoot from there and I could have done it, but this sort of defeats the purpose of qualifying from 100 meters.
Saying "well that only happens if the GM is bad" is a cop-out, because you can just say that about any hole in the rules. If your rule is bad then you need to fix it, not blame players for using it.

I mean, if gaming problems boil down to the GM, then they might as well just make up whatever rules they want and play Magical Tea Party instead of paying money for this rules set. Any 'competent player' should have just as much fun anyways.
DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.
Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.
dkfather
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Post by dkfather »

rasmuswagner wrote:Other than pdf-optimized rulebooks, which I like, and 200 levels of micro-advancement for the Zynga crowd, which I hate but is totally a valid direction, is there anything to distinguish this from Baby's First Post-D&D RPG (TM)?

Because it's marketed like BFPDD-RPG. "Roleplay, not roll-play!" and other 1993-isms are not doing your product any favors.
The main things people liked in play test was deep character generation, strong role playing (including role playing that can take on aspects of combat) and the use of a modernism based role playing system.
dkfather
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Post by dkfather »

...You Lost Me wrote:
dkfather wrote:
DragonChild wrote:The cite is how you began immediately blaming the game masters and players for a flaw in the rules. The flaw that you can just try to climb a wall over and over to level up, the flaw the the rules are not going to keep characters at even advancement because it's totally random, etc. What PURPOSE does giving people extra XP for rolling well serve? The only thing it does is encourage people to roll as often as they possibly can - that is actual effect, that is what the mechanic DOES. Why does the game include a mechanic to encourage people to roll as often as possible?
Except you cannot really do this unless you have a bad GM - and that could be said for any violation of the rules that is allowed by any GM in any game system. And as a competent player I do not require gaming the system to have fun.

I went shooting last weekend and fired a 100 meter barricade relay. The referee could have allowed me to move to the 5 meter line and shoot from there and I could have done it, but this sort of defeats the purpose of qualifying from 100 meters.
Saying "well that only happens if the GM is bad" is a cop-out, because you can just say that about any hole in the rules. If your rule is bad then you need to fix it, not blame players for using it.

I mean, if gaming problems boil down to the GM, then they might as well just make up whatever rules they want and play Magical Tea Party instead of paying money for this rules set. Any 'competent player' should have just as much fun anyways.
Different philosophy. Gaming problems always boil down to the game master. The rules as written prevent just "climbing a wall over and over again" to gain experience. But if the game master allows it and a player is lame enough to try to gain experience in this matter, then I am not sure how I can stop it. I guess I could make a rule that says, "I mean it." :rofl:
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Post by Dean »

Even if climbing does not work does jumping or searching or spotting or lock picking? Hell if you can attack objects you can do this by hitting a rock once a round.

If you say "This rule allows players to gain power by doing X" and your expected rate for that power gain is Y and someone looks at your rulebooks and tells you the achievable rate for that power gain is actually many MULTIPLES of Y then that is a problem with those rules. Those rules are not achieving their goal (of having power gain at rate: Y). If those rules don't succeed at the goals of those rules by following the instructions of those rules it is the fault of those rules.

This is not a case of different gaming philosophies, you are just using the No True Scotsman fallacy. I don't know your system so I can't say what the response should be but the correct response to this experience claim would have to be something like one of the following

"The rules don't actually allow that abuse, you are mistaken, there is a clause stating that you can't gain experience from repeating a task or a clause stating a maximum experience gain over a period of time, etc"
Or "The rules do allow that and that abuse is a negative but the rule is received very well in playtesting so it's presence in the game is overall a net positive"
Or "The rules do allow that and that's an unfortunate error"

All of those are fine but simply claiming a fault in the rules is not actually a fault in the rules because "No True Scotsman" is incorrect. If the new 2014 Honda burst into flames if it went over 90 miles an hour that is a problem with the CAR not the driver. Maybe the car wasn't expected to hit 90, maybe it isn't smart for the driver to go 90 in the first place, but you can't simply claim that "No good driver will go 95" and have that excuse the manufacturer from the equation.
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Post by Fuchs »

I don't see what gaining xp for rolling well adds to a game, other than making people roll more, and generating unfair differences between characters while advancing.
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Post by RadiantPhoenix »

dkfather wrote:Different philosophy. Gaming problems always boil down to the game master. The rules as written prevent just "climbing a wall over and over again" to gain experience. But if the game master allows it and a player is lame enough to try to gain experience in this matter, then I am not sure how I can stop it. I guess I could make a rule that says, "I mean it." :rofl:
Okay, assuming that you do, in fact, get XP for rolling well (as is claimed), what are the restrictions on repeating the action for credit?
  • Do you only get the XP once per session?
  • Do you only get the XP once per in-game period of time?
  • Do you need to climb a different part of the wall?
  • Do you need to climb a different kind of wall?
  • Is there some sort of restriction like, "it must be dangerous"?
  • Is it just a vague, "don't let people spam skills to gain XP"?
dkfather
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Post by dkfather »

deanruel87 wrote: "The rules don't actually allow that abuse, you are mistaken..."
This is the case. I suspect that in some cases people have not actually read the rules they are arguing about, or only gave them cursory inspections.
Last edited by dkfather on Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
dkfather
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Post by dkfather »

RadiantPhoenix wrote: [*] Is there some sort of restriction like, "it must be dangerous"?
You can only gain experience for a Skill Roll, and you only make a Skill Roll when the Skill attempt meets the Rule Three or Rule Four standards listed on page 45 of the Standard Manual. In the current version of this book it states a Skill attempt must have a: "significant chance of failure and a penalty for failing" for a Rule Three attempt. Climbing a rope over a feather bed does not count -- it has no chance of failure or penalty for that failure.
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Post by DragonChild »

dkfather wrote:
deanruel87 wrote: "The rules don't actually allow that abuse, you are mistaken..."
This is the case. I suspect that in some cases people have not actually read the rules they are arguing about, or only gave them cursory inspections.
Are you one of them?

If not, can you actually point out where anyone got them wrong, or are you again going to make more baseless insults ("bad GMs", "Bad players", "not actually read the rules") ?
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Post by RadiantPhoenix »

dkfather wrote:You can only gain experience for a Skill Roll, and you only make a Skill Roll when the Skill attempt meets the Rule Three or Rule Four standards listed on page 45 of the Standard Manual. In the current version of this book it states a Skill attempt must have a: "significant chance of failure and a penalty for failing" for a Rule Three attempt. Climbing a rope over a feather bed does not count -- it has no chance of failure or penalty for that failure.
"I will do it with one arm behind my back, and I will bet my teammate a penny (or copper piece, or whatever small monetary denominations your game uses) that I'll succeed this time."

There -- a significant chance of failure, and a penalty for that failure.

Alternatively, you can do it the Rock Lee (a character from Naruto) way by promising that you'll do something unpleasant for each time you fail.
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Post by dkfather »

RadiantPhoenix wrote:
dkfather wrote:You can only gain experience for a Skill Roll, and you only make a Skill Roll when the Skill attempt meets the Rule Three or Rule Four standards listed on page 45 of the Standard Manual. In the current version of this book it states a Skill attempt must have a: "significant chance of failure and a penalty for failing" for a Rule Three attempt. Climbing a rope over a feather bed does not count -- it has no chance of failure or penalty for that failure.
"I will do it with one arm behind my back, and I will bet my teammate a penny (or copper piece, or whatever small monetary denominations your game uses) that I'll succeed this time."

There -- a significant chance of failure, and a penalty for that failure.

Alternatively, you can do it the Rock Lee (a character from Naruto) way by promising that you'll do something unpleasant for each time you fail.
If that floats you and your game master's boat then that is what can be done. Remember, no game can force good play or even that the spirit of the rules of the game are followed.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

I didn't buy either of the 2 larger pdfs, but XP-for-rolling-well also does some odd things with the mechanical incentives for recurring NPCs if they follow the same rules.

As MC, I know I'd feel awkward if the most effective way for the defeated Evil Warlord to gain power to take revenge on the heroes would be going and playing pub games for a few weeks.
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Post by dkfather »

Avoraciopoctules wrote:I didn't buy either of the 2 larger pdfs, but XP-for-rolling-well also does some odd things with the mechanical incentives for recurring NPCs if they follow the same rules.
I agree. The XP system was never used for advancement of NPCs but if it was used the the issue would likely be complex book keeping.
Avoraciopoctules wrote:As MC, I know I'd feel awkward if the most effective way for the defeated Evil Warlord to gain power to take revenge on the heroes would be going and playing pub games for a few weeks.
360 days to gain a level would be a slow motion way to do it, but I would agree that it would be awkward if the game master indeed choose that as the best way to gain levels.
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

dkfather, you keep dodging the topic. The game master is not deciding that's the way to gain levels, the game did. Literally the physics of your world work in such a way that players gain more superpowers by climbing a wall over and over.

And that is bad. It adds a loophole, it makes advancement disproportional between players, and it doesn't bring any value that an experience-by-challenges system (like D&D) wouldn't.
DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.
Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.
dkfather
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Post by dkfather »

...You Lost Me wrote:dkfather, you keep dodging the topic. The game master is not deciding that's the way to gain levels, the game did. Literally the physics of your world work in such a way that players gain more superpowers by climbing a wall over and over.
Because you have to cheat on three major rules to make it even remotely feasible, then I would argue against your assertion. How would you get around these rules?
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