Total Eclipse RPG

[TarkisFlux]

Remember, no game can force good play or even that the spirit of the rules of the game are followed.

This is trivially true, but also missing the point of the complaints in this thread. Games can align the incentives (in-game rewards, advancement) with playing in a particular way. The complaints here suggest that the game does not do this, but instead puts advancement somewhat at odds with playing the game to tell a story. If it's better for my advancement to go off and climb a wall 100 times instead of following the story, then it makes sense for me to just go do that if I want to gain power for whatever reason.

This is the heart of the defeated warlord complaint, that it is better for the warlord to go play games in the pub than it is to do warlordy stuff to advance in power. And rather than dispute that as the optimal way for him to grow, you just say "sure, whatever". What people in this thread are looking for is an indication that doing the pub thing is not the optimal way for him to gain power again, but that doing warlordy stuff and following a story or plot is a better one, preferably supported by the written rules. You suggest that this is somehow against the rules and a slow motion way to do it, but haven't really put forth any alternative scenarios in which he performs better than if he just hung out in a pub all day long.

I admit to not having read or even glanced at the rules, so I don't know if there is a more optimal way for him to make his come back (assuming he's a player or bound by the same rules and doesn't get GM fiat advancement). But it would be nice to know if there is one, and if so what it is.

[...You Lost Me]

dkfather, you keep dodging the topic. The game master is not deciding that's the way to gain levels, the game did. Literally the physics of your world work in such a way that players gain more superpowers by climbing a wall over and over.

Because you have to cheat on three major rules to make it even remotely feasible, then I would argue against your assertion. How would you get around these rules?

The qualifier for that being "I'll do it with one hand and bet a copper piece that I can do it successfully". RadiantPhoenix already went over this.

You still have yet to explain a merits of your XP system that isn't also a part of the older and better experience system from D&D. Any marginal benefits your system has are dwarfed by the feeling of dissociation the game creates.

[Fuchs]

I would like to know what advantage this system supposedly gives to the game. What does it add to the game?

Realism? Not at all. We all know that in order to get better at climbing you climb, climb, climb, preferably with a safety line so you don't get hurt (much) in case you have an accident. Same for everything else - repeated trainings make you better, a penalty or danger is not required at all.

So, what does it add?

[rasmuswagner]

The main things people liked in play test was deep character generation, strong role playing (including role playing that can take on aspects of combat) and the use of a modernism based role playing system.

WHAT DOES THIS EVEN MEAN???
"Deep" character creation. Does that mean lots of (bullshit) details? Does it mean integration between backstory and stats? Or what?
Strong roleplaying. That's filler because you actually have nothing to say about your system. Or do you maybe mean social combat mechanics? I can't tell.
Modernism based? You mean like Matisse and Picasso?

Look, "XP for making skill rolls" is an OLD mechanic. Early 80ies old IIRC - I know CoCthulhu and Runequest used it. And it has always been the case that it leads to players hunting for opportunities to make skill rolls.

If it´s not even tied to skills but to general advancement...that's going to make people attempt to whore it even worse. This is human nature 101, FFS. Making it randomly trigger on double six is worse than previous systems. Here's a psychology lesson for you: Both humans and animals work harder. in the short term, if the work is rewarded on a very inconsistent schedule. This is empirical, peer-reviewed fact.

And don't pretend that advancement is not supposed to be important, when you've designed a game with 200 levels of microadvancement to give that sweet, sweet "Ding!" fix. It's not that you're a bad person for making this XP-on-6+6 gimmick, it's just that...well, listen to experienced: It's a terrible idea.

And as I've said before: Nobody, nobody wants to hear your "those guys are not real roleplayers" bullshit. Ever. I want your game to do well; there's not a single scenario I can think of where your success is not a neutral or positive outcome for me. Don't shoot yourself in the foot by taking marketing lessons from Heinsoo and Mearls.

[dkfather]

Remember, no game can force good play or even that the spirit of the rules of the game are followed.

This is trivially true, but also missing the point of the complaints in this thread. Games can align the incentives (in-game rewards, advancement) with playing in a particular way. The complaints here suggest that the game does not do this, but instead puts advancement somewhat at odds with playing the game to tell a story. If it's better for my advancement to go off and climb a wall 100 times instead of following the story, then it makes sense for me to just go do that if I want to gain power for whatever reason.

This makes sense, if the rules allowed it. They do not except in absurd ways (for example, a year to advance a level with the expense and danger of getting the task done) so I would instead turn it around and say, why should a writer prepare for cheating game masters and cheating players?

But let me pose a counter question. Why should I shoot my qualifications for barricades at the 100 meter line? I can just run up to the line, set my muzzle on the target, and score 10x every time and get a 450. My score would be better, and everyone would think I was a perfect shot. I instead shot 281 at 100 and found out my off hand relay was poor. Maybe I am not interested in violating the rules even though no one can really stop me from doing it. I am more proud of my 281 fired in hard conditions than a 450 contact score.

This is the heart of the defeated warlord complaint, that it is better for the warlord to go play games in the pub than it is to do warlordy stuff to advance in power.

Not true according to the rules, but I understand this point.

And rather than dispute that as the optimal way for him to grow, you just say "sure, whatever". What people in this thread are looking for is an indication that doing the pub thing is not the optimal way for him to gain power again,

It is not - but then again I cannot stop a game master prepared to ignore the rules in place from doing this.

but that doing warlordy stuff and following a story or plot is a better one, preferably supported by the written rules. You suggest that this is somehow against the rules and a slow motion way to do it, but haven't really put forth any alternative scenarios in which he performs better than if he just hung out in a pub all day long.

Actually I have. 36 rolls per point average (actually a little less, but lets keep it simple). 10 points per level makes a year. 5 years in the pub gives him a nice bounce of 5 levels. And he is not prepared for the good guys after this debauch - he deserves to die.

Instead he could terrorize villagers for a year (+1 level), raise a Zombie army of 72 zombies (+1 level), attack two neighboring villages (+2 levels) trap and ward his evil lair (1 level), fight the priest alcuin (1 level), pervert the Hada clan of the alcheries (1 level) and gate the demen certis into the plane (1 level if he gets lucky). No single activity is able to be repeated over and over, but each makes him stronger to face his enemies in both levels and fighting power.

One issue is time and money. Climbing a wall costs money and makes none - where does all this cash to support the professional wall climber come from, especially when their hobby stretches past 100 years.

I admit to not having read or even glanced at the rules, so I don't know if there is a more optimal way for him to make his come back (assuming he's a player or bound by the same rules and doesn't get GM fiat advancement). But it would be nice to know if there is one, and if so what it is.

DM fiat is the way I often see it done, but the rules do suppose that the bosses be treated in all ways as adventurers, and it was how it was written.

[Fuchs]

Again, what does random xp add to a game? Why have it in a game? Why go through all the trouble trying to curb the logical and expected consequence - players making as many rolls as possible?

[dkfather]

And as I've said before: Nobody, nobody wants to hear your "those guys are not real roleplayers" bullshit. Ever. I want your game to do well; there's not a single scenario I can think of where your success is not a neutral or positive outcome for me. Don't shoot yourself in the foot by taking marketing lessons from Heinsoo and Mearls.

I understand what you are saying but you misunderstand my original comment - a common problem on the Internet. The rules state quite clearly how experience works. If you get more fun out of playing a game where you have your character spend 100 years climbing a wall (a violation of the rules but your choice in the end) and never going on an adventure, then you and I differ extremely in terms of fun and challenge. I am not saying you are doing this, but not everyone in this world takes the kiddie slope (which clearly says no adults) then tries to tell everyone how bad the skiing is. Some of us take the advanced slope or the intermediate slope and follow the rules that the kiddie slope is no place for an adult. A good game master has a rule available to stop a player who wants to game the system and climb walls for 100 years - that is the best I can do. If they and the player want to roll 36,000 times on that wall and proclaim proudly they are 100th level, then I fail to understand the charm but I am pleased they had fun.

Like I said earlier, nothing stops me from shooting my cycle at the 1 meter line. Except maybe my desire for a challenge. Nothing makes the ref keep me at the 100 meter line, except the ref understands why we are out there and why the game is challenging and keeps the challenge in place. Also, one thing lost in all this: why should I waste a day firing point blank into paper targets or knocking kids over on the kiddie slope?

WHAT DOES THIS EVEN MEAN???
"Deep" character creation. Does that mean lots of (bullshit) details?

Yes, or put less negatively, details that can be used in role playing.

Does it mean integration between backstory and stats? Or what?

Yes.

Strong roleplaying. That's filler because you actually have nothing to say about your system. Or do you maybe mean social combat mechanics? I can't tell.

I never used the term social combat (at least I do not remember doing so in the books) but I like it, and it is exactly what can occur.

Modernism based? You mean like Matisse and Picasso?

Matisse and Picasso tell modernist stories, so yes.

[dkfather]

Again, what does random xp add to a game? Why have it in a game? Why go through all the trouble trying to curb the logical and expected consequence - players making as many rolls as possible?

The game does not to my knowledge have random XP distribution. Give me the rule you are referring to and I can read it agains and see if you might be misunderstanding it, or if it is poorly worded.

[rasmuswagner]

Matisse and Picasso tell modernist stories, so yes.

...!

Anyways, just out of curiosity, which RPGs would you say are the biggest influence on yours?

[Fuchs]

Again, what does random xp add to a game? Why have it in a game? Why go through all the trouble trying to curb the logical and expected consequence - players making as many rolls as possible?

The game does not to my knowledge have random XP distribution. Give me the rule you are referring to and I can read it agains and see if you might be misunderstanding it, or if it is poorly worded.

Hello? If I roll a skill check well, aka random outcome, I get xp. You said so yourself. That's random xp.

[dkfather]

Again, what does random xp add to a game? Why have it in a game? Why go through all the trouble trying to curb the logical and expected consequence - players making as many rolls as possible?

The game does not to my knowledge have random XP distribution. Give me the rule you are referring to and I can read it agains and see if you might be misunderstanding it, or if it is poorly worded.

Hello? If I roll a skill check well, aka random outcome, I get xp. You said so yourself. That's random xp.

Skill checks are not random. You do not set a random number generator and suddenly roll a skill check each time it goes bing. They are, by definition, controlled.

[dkfather]

Matisse and Picasso tell modernist stories, so yes.

...!

Anyways, just out of curiosity, which RPGs would you say are the biggest influence on yours?

There is actually an essay about this in the game. Better to read it there rather than have me rewrite that here. It also covers the definition of modernism and how it affects games.

[Grek]

Wait, do you get XP for rolling the skill check, or for succeeding it?

[Prak]

Dice are a random number generator. So, yes, you literally do set a random number generator and gain xp every time a given number (6+6) pops up.

[Prak]

I'm convinced that all of dkfather's posts at this point are just an attempt to infuriate us into buying his books just so we can argue with information in front of us instead trying to pull it, tooth-like, from him.

[dkfather]

Wait, do you get XP for rolling the skill check, or for succeeding it?

There is no rule that says you must succeed if you roll the appropriate number.

[dkfather]

Dice are a random number generator. So, yes, you literally do set a random number generator and gain xp every time a given number (6+6) pops up.

Not really, you can choose not to roll skills, or not roll a skill as your position for a better attempt, or the like. The mechanism for success is pseudo-random, the provision of experience reward is not since two humans (and possibly others) control the setup to the reward.

Believe me, failing to understand randomness is a serious issue that ruins more than one research project, but the interjection of a human hand generally spoils randomness.

[rasmuswagner]

I'm convinced that all of dkfather's posts at this point are just an attempt to infuriate us into buying his books just so we can argue with information in front of us instead trying to pull it, tooth-like, from him.

I concur. Also, I took a second look at the page.

♦ Micro-advancement leveling. Constant minor advances allows a sloping level of power, instead of the usual flat plane and sudden spikes.

♦ Great system for all levels of tabletop RPG experience, from never played to White Box players.

And check out the character sheet.

I think it's pretty safe to assume that there's nothing here but Baby's First Post-D&D RPG.

[dkfather]

I'm convinced that all of dkfather's posts at this point are just an attempt to infuriate us into buying his books just so we can argue with information in front of us instead trying to pull it, tooth-like, from him.

Not really.

[...You Lost Me]

Prak, I think I agree with you. Either that or he's just trying really hard not to give away information because he knows we can use it to shoot down his other arguments.

Anyhow, I hope it sells well. Good luck dk.

[dkfather]

I'm convinced that all of dkfather's posts at this point are just an attempt to infuriate us into buying his books just so we can argue with information in front of us instead trying to pull it, tooth-like, from him.

I concur. Also, I took a second look at the page.

♦ Micro-advancement leveling. Constant minor advances allows a sloping level of power, instead of the usual flat plane and sudden spikes.

♦ Great system for all levels of tabletop RPG experience, from never played to White Box players.

And check out the character sheet.

I think it's pretty safe to assume that there's nothing here but Baby's First Post-D&D RPG.

That is your option. I cannot convert a hater into a rationalist on the Internet, but i can answer reasonable questions. Feel free to come back and ask them if you ever want.

[dkfather]

Prak, I think I agree with you. Either that or he's just trying really hard not to give away information because he knows we can use it to shoot down his other arguments.

Anyhow, I hope it sells well. Good luck dk.

Thanks, it has sold well - so far. Not sure how long that will last of course, and who knows where the economy will go. We have two more modules by other authors coming out and around 50 small changes requested by players, so we will be updating the books soon.

Like I said earlier, and I am not accusing anyone of being a hater, but the best I can do is answer rational questions - not hate diatribes that make up so much of the Internet discourse. There is no sinister fu manchu conspiracy.

[rasmuswagner]

That is your option. I cannot convert a hater into a rationalist on the Internet, but i can answer reasonable questions. Feel free to come back and ask them if you ever want.

Good day, sir, and may a thousand dickwolves rape you to sleep.

[dkfather]

That is your option. I cannot convert a hater into a rationalist on the Internet, but i can answer reasonable questions. Feel free to come back and ask them if you ever want.

Good day, sir, and may a thousand dickwolves rape you to sleep.

Good day, I hope your game sells well.

[ishy]

If you gain XP for rolling I wouldn't have a problem with someone trying to abuse it by making infinite rolls (though if the system would allow it, it is bad) because you can fix that easy enough.

But say I have a session each week, 50 weeks a year. Where one player rolls an average of 100 dice per session and the other rolls 120. That would mean one player has about 1000 dice rolls more XP. And isn't as noticeable since it happens over a long time, till you notice that the player is a couple of levels ahead.

You can of course fix this by giving the second player extra XP (what suggestion does the game give if a player can't make it to the table for a couple of sessions?) but if you do that, I wonder why you have this method of gaining XP in the first place.