Total Eclipse RPG

[Fuchs]

The game does not to my knowledge have random XP distribution. Give me the rule you are referring to and I can read it agains and see if you might be misunderstanding it, or if it is poorly worded.

Hello? If I roll a skill check well, aka random outcome, I get xp. You said so yourself. That's random xp.

Skill checks are not random. You do not set a random number generator and suddenly roll a skill check each time it goes bing. They are, by definition, controlled.

Don't try to be cute. We have a skill check to climb over a wall. I roll 11, My friend rolls 12 - he gets XP. Random XP.

[dkfather]

If you gain XP for rolling I wouldn't have a problem with someone trying to abuse it by making infinite rolls (though if the system would allow it, it is bad) because you can fix that easy enough.

Agreed, the system actually does not allow it - the game master has to either break the rules or allow a really strange outcome. For example, a character chooses to spend 100 years climbing a wall is out of the game anyway - roll new character.

But say I have a session each week, 50 weeks a year. Where one player rolls an average of 100 dice per session and the other rolls 120. That would mean one player has about 1000 dice rolls more XP. And isn't as noticeable since it happens over a long time, till you notice that the player is a couple of levels ahead.

You can of course fix this by giving the second player extra XP (what suggestion does the game give if a player can't make it to the table for a couple of sessions?) but if you do that, I wonder why you have this method of gaining XP in the first place.

There are three reasons. First, in play testing it showed no tendency to abuse or breakout character advancement - not one note in the years it was present by any play test group, even the final two who had the game in its final form. Second, it provided encouragement to participation by team mates - everyone can figure out how to push the boat forward a little better. Finally, it was part of the original literature on life points.

Finally, it has two years of smooth sailing. Of the 50 changes brought up by players it has not been among them. Generally, if something is not broke, do not fix it. Now, if year 3 customer notes start coming back from problems we may resubmit to the play test team and see if they can duplicate some of the concerns, but the players really have to dislike it in a way that causes feedback.

[dkfather]

Hello? If I roll a skill check well, aka random outcome, I get xp. You said so yourself. That's random xp.

Skill checks are not random. You do not set a random number generator and suddenly roll a skill check each time it goes bing. They are, by definition, controlled.

Don't try to be cute. We have a skill check to climb over a wall. I roll 11, My friend rolls 12 - he gets XP. Random XP.

You choose to go to a bar and drink a beer - no chance at experience. Your friend spends four hours questioning beggars, rolls a 10, and gets the life point. Human agency is, by definition, the death knell of randomness. If your game is totally controlled by dice rolls - you drink beers each day part you roll a 6 and your friend questions beggars each time they roll a 5, then indeed you are correct - random XP.

[Fuchs]

You choose to go to a bar and drink a beer - no chance at experience. Your friend spends four hours questioning beggars, rolls a 10, and gets the life point. Human agency is, by definition, the death knell of randomness. If your game is totally controlled by dice rolls - you drink beers each day part you roll a 6 and your friend questions beggars each time they roll a 5, then indeed you are correct - random XP.

No, me and my friend do exactly the same things. We adventure together, both of us climb over a wall. I roll 11, he rolls 12 - he gets XP, I don't get XP. Then we fight with a troll. Both of us together He rolls well, I roll average, he gets xp, I don't get xp. Then we try to open a door, and again, I roll average, he rolls well, and he gets XP and I don't.

Do you understand it now? We do the same things, same decisions, but he randomly gets XP and I don't.

[dkfather]

You choose to go to a bar and drink a beer - no chance at experience. Your friend spends four hours questioning beggars, rolls a 10, and gets the life point. Human agency is, by definition, the death knell of randomness. If your game is totally controlled by dice rolls - you drink beers each day part you roll a 6 and your friend questions beggars each time they roll a 5, then indeed you are correct - random XP.

No, me and my friend do exactly the same things. We adventure together, both of us climb over a wall. I roll 11, he rolls 12 - he gets XP, I don't get XP. Then we fight with a troll. Both of us together He rolls well, I roll average, he gets xp, I don't get xp. Then we try to open a door, and again, I roll average, he rolls well, and he gets XP and I don't.

Do you understand it now? We do the same things, same decisions, but he randomly gets XP and I don't.

What caused you to fight the troll?

[...You Lost Me]

The troll is entirely irrelevant to whether XP is random, so if your argument is "it's the troll that made you gain XP THEREFORE NOT RANDOM" you are factually wrong.

[ishy]

What caused you to fight the troll?

The internet.
Sorry bad joke, I'll show myself out.

[Fuchs]

You choose to go to a bar and drink a beer - no chance at experience. Your friend spends four hours questioning beggars, rolls a 10, and gets the life point. Human agency is, by definition, the death knell of randomness. If your game is totally controlled by dice rolls - you drink beers each day part you roll a 6 and your friend questions beggars each time they roll a 5, then indeed you are correct - random XP.

No, me and my friend do exactly the same things. We adventure together, both of us climb over a wall. I roll 11, he rolls 12 - he gets XP, I don't get XP. Then we fight with a troll. Both of us together He rolls well, I roll average, he gets xp, I don't get xp. Then we try to open a door, and again, I roll average, he rolls well, and he gets XP and I don't.

Do you understand it now? We do the same things, same decisions, but he randomly gets XP and I don't.

What caused you to fight the troll?

In this system two players can do the exact same things, for an entire adventure, and entirely due to random rolls, one of them gets more XP than the other.

That's why I talk of random XP.

And I am asking you again: Why is this a good thing for a game?

If me and Bob do play the same charactes, do the same things, at the same time, under the same conditions, in the same game, under the same GM, why shouldn't we get the same amount of XP?

[DragonChild]

The review made this system seem worthless.

dkfather's defense of the system let me KNOW it was worthless.

I wonder if all these idiot defenders of bad systems realize that all they're doing is convincing people not to play the shitty, shitty games they love so much? We had this same problem with eclipse phase and others...

[RadiantPhoenix]

If that floats you and your game master's boat then that is what can be done. Remember, no game can force good play or even that the spirit of the rules of the game are followed.

Look, do you have a rule dealing with it, or not?

Also, I agree with the people saying that the mechanic probably doesn't really add anything good to an RPG in the first place.

[...You Lost Me]

Someone's tags are.... agh.

[dkfather]

If that floats you and your game master's boat then that is what can be done. Remember, no game can force good play or even that the spirit of the rules of the game are followed.

Look, do you have a rule dealing with it, or not?

Also, I agree with the people saying that the mechanic probably doesn't really add anything good to an RPG in the first place.

As I said earlier, yes, the rule deals with it.

Player: I set up the food, safety, and the wall to allow me to gain 100 levels...

Game Master: Good, we will retire your character and you can roll another one, returning to this character 100 years from now.

[dkfather]

No, me and my friend do exactly the same things. We adventure together, both of us climb over a wall. I roll 11, he rolls 12 - he gets XP, I don't get XP. Then we fight with a troll. Both of us together He rolls well, I roll average, he gets xp, I don't get xp. Then we try to open a door, and again, I roll average, he rolls well, and he gets XP and I don't.

Do you understand it now? We do the same things, same decisions, but he randomly gets XP and I don't.

What caused you to fight the troll?

In this system two players can do the exact same things, for an entire adventure, and entirely due to random rolls, one of them gets more XP than the other.

That's why I talk of random XP.

And I am asking you again: Why is this a good thing for a game?

If me and Bob do play the same charactes, do the same things, at the same time, under the same conditions, in the same game, under the same GM, why shouldn't we get the same amount of XP?

Because the example never happened in real life.

[Avoraciopoctules]

So if people who set up an obstacle course and go barcrawling get arbitrarily prevented from gaining more than 1 level a year, then what keeps PCs who "go adventuring" from getting limited to 1 level per year as well?

[Mistborn]

Wow why does the den keep attracting people who clearly have not lurked here and absorbed by osmosis basic game design.

So dk you are advocating for a system where people can both go on the same adventure and get diffrent amounts of XP. Why is this even remotely a feature and not a horrible bug.

[dkfather]

If you do have a reasonable question about the system please e-mail me and I will be happy to answer it. Basically:

1. There are rules that make gaming the system with XP practically impossible. (For example, taking a hundred years climbing the wall - where do you find the money to keep from starving?)

2. The game was designed to reward people who take action - play testers appreciated it. If you play as a GM that every person around the table gets equal award without equal effort (you charged the orcs naked, but I will promote you a level and resurrect you), then likely there will be a divergence in experience that will not satisfy you.

3. Surprisingly, current player base have three other issues with the game being fixed - so if you play it and find one of these issues please bring them up. They are all realism versus gaming issues.

[dkfather]

So if people who set up an obstacle course and go barcrawling get arbitrarily prevented from gaining more than 1 level a year, then what keeps PCs who "go adventuring" from getting limited to 1 level per year as well?

Not sure why either would give experience - the rules would prevent it. But please refer to my earlier posts for the answer.

[Prak]

Dice are a random number generator. So, yes, you literally do set a random number generator and gain xp every time a given number (6+6) pops up.

Not really, you can choose not to roll skills, or not roll a skill as your position for a better attempt, or the like. The mechanism for success is pseudo-random, the provision of experience reward is not since two humans (and possibly others) control the setup to the reward.

Believe me, failing to understand randomness is a serious issue that ruins more than one research project, but the interjection of a human hand generally spoils randomness.

Unless you have a player who is so skilled with rolling dice that they can actually roll them so as to control the outcome (I can only kind of sort of do it with d4s. Just like everyone else), no, dice are random. The fact that a person is rolling them does not make them less so. Manufacturing flaws may make individual dice less random, but given that I do not know anyone who shops for such flawed dice specifically, I still say they are random.

Yes, one person is, hairy-thundering ogre-lord-like, saying "ok, you may roll for this."
However, that person has no control over whether the player reaps exp from that roll, unless he is changing the rules.

Like I said earlier, and I am not accusing anyone of being a hater,

Yes you fucking are:

I think it's pretty safe to assume that there's nothing here but Baby's First Post-D&D RPG.

That is your option. I cannot convert a hater into a rationalist on the Internet, but i can answer reasonable questions. Feel free to come back and ask them if you ever want.

You are not explicitly saying "rasmuswagner, you're a hater," but you're childishly implying such with these stupid statements. Welcome to the Gaming Den, sir, we may be vulgar, but we fucking own it when we tell someone to eat a dick.

What caused you to fight the troll?

The internet.
Sorry bad joke, I'll show myself out.

This thread, summed up in one image.

If that floats you and your game master's boat then that is what can be done. Remember, no game can force good play or even that the spirit of the rules of the game are followed.

Look, do you have a rule dealing with it, or not?

Also, I agree with the people saying that the mechanic probably doesn't really add anything good to an RPG in the first place.

As I said earlier, yes, the rule deals with it.

Player: I set up the food, safety, and the wall to allow me to gain 100 levels...

Game Master: Good, we will retire your character and you can roll another one, returning to this character 100 years from now.

That. Is not. Dealing with it. You dipshit!
Fine! We get that there is some bullshit-mysterious rule saying "you cannot climb a wall a hundred times to grind xp." We're on a different matter now.
What rule is in place to avoid discrepancy between companion adventurers who perform the same tasks, but roll differently such that one gains more xp than the other.
To put it another way, because I'm starting to think our vocabularies are too large for you,
What happens when I, who rolls shitty, perform the same in game tasks as my friend, who rolls amazingly, and my friend winds up three levels above me.

Simple adventure for example sake: We must assault a castle and slay the dragon who is holding the princess hostage.

• We roll to swim across the moat, I get a 7, he gets a 12. He gets xp, I do not.
• Then we roll to climb the castle wall, not for 100 years, but just to get over the castle wall so that we advance the plot. He rolls 12 and gets over the wall right away. I roll 4, 2, and finally 10. He gets xp, I do not.
• We have to sneak past the dragon's minions. I roll a 6, he rolls a 10. Fortunately, my character is better at stealth, so we both succeed. Neither of us gain xp.
• Finally we face the dragon. Over the course of the battle, we both roll 42 attacks, because apparently combat in your system is a grueling slogfest. He rolls 12 three times, I roll a single 12.
• Then we rescue the princess, and we're both flirting with her. He gets another 12, I roll a 4. Not only does he get xp and I do not, but he gets to fuck the princess, and I have my hand.

At the end of this adventure, my lucky friend has gained xp from rolls 6 times. I have gained xp from rolls once.
how does your system handle this discrepancy?

What caused you to fight the troll?

In this system two players can do the exact same things, for an entire adventure, and entirely due to random rolls, one of them gets more XP than the other.

That's why I talk of random XP.

And I am asking you again: Why is this a good thing for a game?

If me and Bob do play the same charactes, do the same things, at the same time, under the same conditions, in the same game, under the same GM, why shouldn't we get the same amount of XP?

Because the example never happened in real life.

Then your playtesters were a waste of everyone's time.

[dkfather]

So dk you are advocating for a system where people can both go on the same adventure and get diffrent amounts of XP. Why is this even remotely a feature and not a horrible bug.

Because it was not found to be so in play testing is the reason it was kept.

Remember, if the average game master is sitting around the table with the average set of players and one says "I run an obstacle course to get XP." The game master will shrug and say, great, you spend the day running the course and get no XP (because you cannot), The rest of the players get into the fight, advance the scenario two stages, and do a bunch of other things to get XP.

You are advocating rewarding your paste eater on the team with the same XP that the rest got. This game recognizes that good play, better rewards. Also remember, XP for good rolls is only 1 way to get XP.

Now, I am not saying that your paste eater should not be given a little dose of gaming socialism and brought up to speed - if he is a moron but you keep him around for humor sake, then by all means give him a boost against the rules. Game masters have that choice, but the rules where not designed for socialized gaming.

[Mistborn]

herpity derpity

Facepalm x2 combo.

Clearly your play testers are just your imagineary friends.

Your system ultimately rewards whoever rolls the most dice. That totally a thing that it does. What that has the effect of doing is incetivising jackasses to hog the spotlite even more than they normally do. Fuck I literally can not imagine a worse xp system.

[DragonChild]

I can only assume this system literally doesn't work at all.

Seriously, from dkfather's posts, this system has gone from "a mere curiousity" to "outright worthless piece of shit'.

dkfather, do you realize that by claiming the results of dicerolls aren't random you look like a total loon?

[Prak]

So dk you are advocating for a system where people can both go on the same adventure and get diffrent amounts of XP. Why is this even remotely a feature and not a horrible bug.

Because it was not found to be so in play testing is the reason it was kept.

Again, your playtesters were worthless, then. Playtesting is supposed to find system breaks, not do some narrow little path that avoids anything that might resemble a system problem.

Remember, if the average game master is sitting around the table with the average set of players and one says "I run an obstacle course to get XP." The game master will shrug and say, great, you spend the day running the course and get no XP (because you cannot), The rest of the players get into the fight, advance the scenario two stages, and do a bunch of other things to get XP.

So your XP system is actually just literal Magical Tea Party where players are rewarded XP because the GM liked how they poured imaginary tea. This explains a lot, really.

You are advocating rewarding your paste eater on the team with the same XP that the rest got. This game recognizes that good play, better rewards. Also remember, XP for good rolls is only 1 way to get XP.

Now, I am not saying that your paste eater should not be given a little dose of gaming socialism and brought up to speed - if he is a moron but you keep him around for humor sake, then by all means give him a boost against the rules. Game masters have that choice, but the rules where not designed for socialized gaming.

And, again, you insult people who identify system breaks and are incentivized by how the rules hand out advancement. I will point out that people who act that way are not "paste eaters," they are normal people. That is how the human brain works.

[name_here]

My Fire Emblem instincts are telling me this is a horrible system for a game where players control one character.

[RadiantPhoenix]

You are advocating rewarding your paste eater on the team with the same XP that the rest got. This game recognizes that good play, better rewards. Also remember, XP for good rolls is only 1 way to get XP.

So what?

Players who roll well more often still get more XP than those who roll poorly, all else being equal.

Is this something you consider acceptable? If so, why? If not, what does your system do to prevent it?

[hpsuperfan]

You are advocating rewarding your paste eater on the team with the same XP that the rest got. This game recognizes that good play, better rewards. Also remember, XP for good rolls is only 1 way to get XP.

So what?

Players who roll well more often still get more XP than those who roll poorly, all else being equal.

Is this something you consider acceptable? If so, why? If not, what does your system do to prevent it?

I'm still a bit unclear on how the rolling of the die works; however, even if a player receives XP due to a better roll...I think this makes for a more exciting game. Many--if not most--games have a luck-factor, which adds suspense. The players still wouldn't necessarily be equal because as dk stated, there are other ways to receive XP.