Pun Pun, Sarrukhs and Manipulate Form

[fectin]

No, that's not what anyone has said here. Go back and re-read if you think someone has.

Your version of this claim is like "Wizards can gain any spell at level up, so why not make up a new spell?" That is a complete strawman, with a straw coat and a fancy straw hat.

The actual claim is like "Wizards can gain any spell at level up, do any published spell is fair game." That is a completely different thing.

[fectin]

Persistent time stop does not work. The text explains that the actual duration is instantaneous, and the header is a shorthand. Text trumps all, so it's not even ambiguous.

[Mistborn]

Your version of this claim is like "Wizards can gain any spell at level up, so why not make up a new spell?" That is a complete strawman, with a straw coat and a fancy straw hat.

No bad liar, stop lying.

When you level up as a wizard you get a new spell off the Sor/Wiz list you can't chose spells from any other list because that's against the rules. You also can't chose spells that don't exist because they don't exist.

So let's say their is a class feature that lest you add a spell to your spells know. Given that what is a spell is clearly defined in game terms you can chose any object that meet that definition and add it too your list even if it's from the Wu Jen list, Trapsmith or whatever bulshit list you want to pick from.

(Ex) (Su) and (Sp) abilites are equally defined in rules terms.

[Mistborn]

Persistent time stop does not work. The text explains that the actual duration is instantaneous, and the header is a shorthand. Text trumps all, so it's not even ambiguous.

Nope the text of the spell says nothing about counting as instantantaneous read it again.

Time Stop
Transmutation
Level:Sor/Wiz 9, Trickery 9
Components:V
Casting Time:1 standard action
Range:Personal
Target:You
Duration:1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text

This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.

You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.

You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop

No amout of stupid or broken makes the text not say what it says

[Slade]

Persistent time stop does not work. The text explains that the actual duration is instantaneous, and the header is a shorthand. Text trumps all, so it's not even ambiguous.

Mistborn quoted Time Stop I shall quote the revelant part:
Duration:1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text

This is how you want it to read:
Duration: Instanteous, 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text

It never says anything about instanteous, it would be better if it did, but it doesn't.

[Kaelik]

I thought the den didn't do this bullshit. It's just like Persistent Time Stop it totally works by what's actually writen in the rules no mater how hard idiots handwave.

A Sarruk may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abillity or remove one from it

(Ex), (Su), and (Sp) abilites are a known quantity unlike your dumb strawman Kaelik. As long as an ability is listed as (Ex) (Su) or (Sp) it can be granted by manipulate form. I have know idea what the guy who wrote that ability was on but that's what it does.

Why are you so emotionally invested in this argument.

Yes, it must be that I am emotionally invested in an argument, it could not possibly just be because I like arguing about rules minutia on the internet and you are wrong. Totally, just say I must care a lot, and am therefore obviously wrong without any argument because you are doing it for the lulz. Eat all the dicks nimrod.

Now, once you get off the high horse you have never fucking earned, try actually reading what people say:

1) X grants Y of Z.
2) [Manipulate Form] grants [SLA] of [error undefined].
3) [Spell] grants [Strength Score] of [error undefined].

(Ex) is a category of abilities. You are claiming that because it fails to specify which abilities in the category it must be that you can just pick whichever one you want.

That is wrong.

Strength Score is a category too, and it is defined by numbers.

But if Manipulate Form said "A Sarruk may also grant the target a Strength Score" (literally all I did was replace an SLA with a Strength Score) you would have to be a goddam idiot to think that a Sarruk can just pick whatever number you goddam want off the top of you head as the strength score.

Is 679 a Strength score? Yes, it is, but that ability defined above does not allow you to grant something a Strength score of 679, not even an incorporeal creature that doesn't have a Strength score.

The fact that any given SLA is in fact "an SLA" is no more or less meaningful than the 679 is a Strength Score.

If the first level of the Wizard class said "A Wizard can cast spells" and nothing else, it would not mean that it could cast any spell it wants at any point, it would mean it cannot cast any spells at all, because it is missing defined variables.

You would not point to a spell and say "this is a spell, therefore I can cast it."

But that is literally exactly what you are doing in the case of Manipulate form, you are arguing that because a key variable is missing, you can just put whatever you goddam want there, and that is incorrect.

"This is an SLA, therefore I can grant it" is exactly the same argument as "this is a Strength Score, therefore I can grant it" or "this is a spell, therefore I can cast it."

[Koumei]

Seeing as we totally need to argue about this crap, the deal with Time Stop is "You can't Persist it because the Sage says so". No really, that's the long and short of it. Now the Sage probably cited "Because the apparent duration isn't a real duration" or something else that is either wrong or irrelevant, but that's enough for people to go by.

I'm not going so far as to say "The Sage is so often wrong that you should take the opposite to their ruling in any case", though it's worth considering, but really, the entire basis of not being able to do so (aside from "Metamagicing things above what you could cast, by dint of chicanery and knavish behaviour, should never be allowed. Off with you at once!") is "Because the Sage said so", and that is not an argument worth putting forward.

I don't know if that Sage was Skip, but it could very well have been, and we know about Skip and crack.

[wotmaniac]

@ Manipulate Form:
Well, apparently the Sarrukh can just give you whatever kind of ability it wants. As it stands, there is a particular reason to assume that the default definition you should plug in is "any ability published in any D&D book on any monster" -- and that particular reason is that the Sarrukh is a Progenitor Race, i.e., it creates new and unique races and beings out of whole cloth. Let's look at the evidence:

First is simply basic grammar -- "A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability [...]." It's not undefined -- to the contrary, it is very specifically defined (or, more accurately, has specifically-defined boundaries); i.e., the ability that it grants must fall under 1 of 3 specifically-defined categories -- it just so happens that the set of abilities that falls under this pervue (i.e., the space between the defined boundaries) is FUCKING HUGE. The specific verbiage used means that Manipulate Form is not further restricted; i.e., it does indeed allow for any fucking ability it chooses (provided it is either Ex, Su, or Sp) -- the only real possible exception is the practicality matter addressed by fectin (in regards to published-vs-unpublished -- but I'll get to that in just a minute).

But let's move on .... amongst the various creatures that the Sarrukh created were nagas and yuan-ti. All the various yuan-ti have SLAs that just seem to be there for no other reason than that they're there -- they're certainly not on the list of abilities that a Sarrukh has. So how did the yuan-ti get those SLAs? The Sarrukh gave them to them. Fuck, nagas have straight-up inherent racial spell casting -- where did that come from? Well, if MoF is to be believed, the fucking Sarrukh gave it to them. Does the Sarrukh have spell casting? Nope. Then how the hell can he give it to a creature? Because, evidently, that's the kind of cool shit you get to do when you're a fucking Progenitor Race. And this is but 2 examples.
*note on "physical alterations": that's not even an exhaustive or exclusionary list -- just look again at the specific verbiage: "Typical physical alterations that sarrukh often bestow with this ability include the following". That verbiage means 2 things: 1) these are just the most common, 2) this is just a sample of a larger list of things that can be altered.


@Kaelik
What is it with you and reading comprehension/grammar? Did they do something naughty to you as a child?
And was Mr. Strawman the one who chased them away, contributing to your unhealthy affection towards him?
Okay, snide remarks aside, let me break this down for you (in no particular order):
* if you are subject to an effect that says "your strength becomes 32", then that effect has indeed actually changed your strength to 32 -- that's what that means.
* the ability-score-bestowing ability of the sarrukh is well defined. Specifically, it is a # between 1 an the sarrukh's own ability score -- the ability score does in fact get set to a specific #, but what that specific # happens to be is completely at the discretion of the sarrukh (within the defined boundaries, of course)
* contrary to what has been put forth here, a wizard can indeed put an unpublished spell in his spell book. In the wizard class description, the spellbook section explicitly tells you to turn to page 178 "Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook" for the complete explanation for how to add spells to your spellbook. 121 pages later, we see section heading called (ta-da!) "Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook"; and what do you know, there are 3 specific ways for a wizard to add spells to his spellbook -- "Spells Gained at a New Level", "Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll", and "Independent Research". And to my utter amazement, you actually can just make up new spells from whole cloth to stick in your spellbook (at which point I can only assume that this new spell would indeed be considered a "wizard spell") -- and after it gets done telling you that you can make up your own spells, it tells you to go to DMG chapter 2 for guidance on how to make these new spells. So I grab my DMG, and holy sheep shit, there's a section on page 35 called "Creating New Spells" -- and wouldn't you know it, there's about three-quarters of a page detailing guidance on how to do just that (I'm not saying anything one way or another as to the quality of this particular piece of literature; but the fact that it does indeed exist is indisputable).
--* now, I think it bares pointing out since creating new spells falls under the pervue of DM fiat, it's not even a consideration when contemplating "all-things-being-equal" type stuff -- which is why even TO insanity sticks with published material.


Alright, I'm gonna jump back over to this Ice Assassin mess again:
First -- the one and only use of the word "servant" was very clearly a direct reference to the proxy in question. A Proxy is a particular type of "minion" of a given god.
Now, in order for a god to transfer a divine rank to you, you must be one of his proxies -- this is clearly laid out in plain and direct language. If you wanted to create an Ice Assassin of Kord so that it could give you a divine rank as if it were Kord himself, then that necessarily means that you must be a minion of Kord (at least at the time of the transference of divine ranks). From here we have 2 issues:
1) no proxy of Kord, throughout the history-and-future of Forever, has ever, nor will ever be, in "absolute command" of Kord -- to try to suggest anything resembling the contrary would be pathetically absurd.
2) because of a deity's portfolio awareness, he will immediately know the very second you try to create an ice assassin of him. And because of the inherent nature of an ice assassin, if the given deity happens to recognize you as one of his minions, then said deity will summarily fire your ass well before your 8 hours are up (meaning that you are no longer a legitimate target for divine rank transference) -- and you'll consider yourself lucky if he doesn't destroy your fucking soul on the spot.

And I'll debunk Ice Assassin a little further.
The Ice Assassin will not necessarily have any divine ranks. Within the spell's description, there are indeed some inherent differences between it and the target creature (despite being "near-perfect"). The spell says that you simply have the "skills, abilities, and memories" of the target. Divine ranks are none of those -- thus, your ice assassin of Kord has no divine ranks to bestow upon you.



The major build-up of pun-pun, while being nothing more than a silly parlor trick, is still fairly in-bounds. My major contention all these years has been with the divine ascension bullshit.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Look, if you're going to get into, "what's a sensible extrapolation or interpolation of what we have?" rather than, "what do the books explicitly say you can do?" then the answer is, "Pun-Pun doesn't work because it's an output that's not sensible."

Pun-Pun is not a sensible output of the rules, therefore Pun-Pun can only exist in the space of, "things that the rules explicitly let you do, even though they're not sensible."

[Kaelik]

It's not undefined -- to the contrary, it is very specifically defined (or, more accurately, has specifically-defined boundaries); i.e., the ability that it grants must fall under 1 of 3 specifically-defined categories

Okay, so again.

If a spell says "This spell grants you a strength score." Do you gain the strength score of 679? Do you gain a Strength Score of 12? How did you figure out what Strength Score to give? Oh, you just ignored the undefined part of the spell and inserted a variable. By houserule.

Manipulate form does not give you "any X" it gives you "an X" but if it does not possess a method of determining what X, then it is undefined. The argument "If it is an X, then I can have it" applies equally to Manipulate Form and the hypothetical spell above giving you a Strength Score of 679.

Which is to say, that it is wrong in both cases.

@Kaelik
What is it with you and reading comprehension/grammar? Did they do something naughty to you as a child?
And was Mr. Strawman the one who chased them away, contributing to your unhealthy affection towards him?

This is literally the funniest thing ever. Because what happened after it is that you failed to comprehend anything I was saying in a collossal way, causing everything you said to be directed at a strawman.

I literally cannot stop laughing you outrageous idiot. I have never seen someone set themselves up so hard to fall on their own sword literally all the way after that.

* if you are subject to an effect that says "your strength becomes 32", then that effect has indeed actually changed your strength to 32 -- that's what that means.

Yes, you complete and utter retard. Which is why I have never disputed that. What I did say is that if an ability says "Your Strength score becomes" and then ends right the fuck there with no number, that the ability does not grant you the power to insert whatever goddam number you want out of your ass.

But thank you for completely failing to comprehend everything I said and directing your comments at a strawman. That was great.

* the ability-score-bestowing ability of the sarrukh is well defined. Specifically, it is a # between 1 an the sarrukh's own ability score -- the ability score does in fact get set to a specific #, but what that specific # happens to be is completely at the discretion of the sarrukh (within the defined boundaries, of course)

I am aware of that you complete idiot. Which is why I have never questioned the ability of Manipulate Form to arbitrarily increase your attributes super high, and have instead only used hypothetical abilities that leave Strength scores undefined to present an analogy between Manipulate for granting "an SLA" and a spell or other ability granting "a Strength score."

Because "Evasion (Ex)" is "an extraordinary ability" and "679" is "a Strength Score" so therefore, if you believe that Manipulate Form can grant you evasion, then, you must believe that a spell which states "You are granted a Strength Score" can grant you a Strength Score of 679.

But thank you for completely failing to comprehend everything I said and directing your comments at a strawman. That was great.

* contrary to what has been put forth here, a wizard can indeed put an unpublished spell in his spell book.

No one ever claimed they can't. Once again, I used "A Wizard can cast spells." as a limited hypothetical to show that when an ability is partially undefined, you don't just get to say "whatever I want goes in the undefined space."

But here is the thing, unlike Manipulate Form, the rules for Wizards putting spells in their spellbook are not undefined. They define key features, like where those spells can come from. And yes, one of the locations, under certain circumstances is "your imagination." But notice how unlike Manipulate Form, the rules for adding spells specifically say that.

But thank you for completely failing to comprehend everything I said and directing your comments at a strawman. That was great.

Alright, I'm gonna jump back over to this Ice Assassin mess again:
1) no proxy of Kord, throughout the history-and-future of Forever, has ever, nor will ever be, in "absolute command" of Kord -- to try to suggest anything resembling the contrary would be pathetically absurd.

No, they aren't. But that is not because it is definitionally impossible. It is just because it factually happens to not be the case. It is totally possible for a minion, IE, according to the definition of minion "one who serves Kord" to be in absolute command of Kord. Just like parents can serve their children while being in absolute command of them.

2) because of a deity's portfolio awareness, he will immediately know the very second you try to create an ice assassin of him. And because of the inherent nature of an ice assassin, if the given deity happens to recognize you as one of his minions, then said deity will summarily fire your ass well before your 8 hours are up (meaning that you are no longer a legitimate target for divine rank transference) -- and you'll consider yourself lucky if he doesn't destroy your fucking soul on the spot.

Yes, Gods can use portfolio sense to kill you before you become a god. This is not new or different, and is a much better argument than your refusal to believe in serving someone you command. Gods serve their followers all the damn time.

[Kaelik]

Pun-Pun is not a sensible output of the rules, therefore Pun-Pun can only exist in the space of, "things that the rules explicitly let you do, even though they're not sensible."

Pun-Pun also does not exist in that realm either. Because the rules do not let you do that. Read anything at all before you post next time.

[LR]

So let's say their is a class feature that lest you add a spell to your spells know. Given that what is a spell is clearly defined in game terms you can chose any object that meet that definition and add it too your list even if it's from the Wu Jen list, Trapsmith or whatever bulshit list you want to pick from.

(Ex) (Su) and (Sp) abilites are equally defined in rules terms.

Wizards do get this ability. It's on page 178 and 179 of the PHB. They can copy spells from any scroll that they can decipher (and they can decipher any scroll), and they can can simply invent spells or copy from any list without a scroll through "Independent Research". There are guidelines, of course, but the DM is free to ignore those guidelines.

Pun-Pun, assuming that he exists at all, is preempted by any 1st level Wizard.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Pun-Pun is not a sensible output of the rules, therefore Pun-Pun can only exist in the space of, "things that the rules explicitly let you do, even though they're not sensible."

Pun-Pun also does not exist in that realm either. Because the rules do not let you do that. Read anything at all before you post next time.

I am and was aware of this.

The point of my statement was to dismiss as concisely as possible the notion that Pun-Pun can depend on any sort of out-of-rules interpolation or extrapolation and still be considered legitimate.

[Kaelik]

Pun-Pun is not a sensible output of the rules, therefore Pun-Pun can only exist in the space of, "things that the rules explicitly let you do, even though they're not sensible."

Pun-Pun also does not exist in that realm either. Because the rules do not let you do that. Read anything at all before you post next time.

I am and was aware of this.

The point of my statement was to dismiss as concisely as possible the notion that Pun-Pun can depend on any sort of out-of-rules interpolation or extrapolation and still be considered legitimate.

Then I refer to: Read something. Because literally no one is claiming otherwise. Some people believe that it is completely RAW legal (using the word, for example "explicitly") and others that it is not.

But no one has claimed they need any interpolation. That issue never came up at all, until you brought it up.

[Dean]

(Ex) (Su) and (Sp) abilites are equally defined in rules terms.

They are. They are defined only as such. They are abilities that let you do something and they have certain saves and operate differently in anti-magic fields.

That's all.

My opinion is the ability grants nothing because it is incomplete. But if your opinion is it does work then it can just grant you any ability you want that conforms to those terms. There's nothing in the writing about having to plumb monster manuals. The only description for those abilities is those terms.

If a race said "At first level you gain a supernatural ability" but didn't say what kind then you just get nothing. It doesn't mean you pick any supernatural ability ever written because that's houseruling. If you think it DOES grant you any ability that conforms to the term "Supernatural ability" then all you need it to do is write some words on a page and label it (Su) and you're fucking done. My opinion is you get nothing but if you think you get something that you can get whatever the fuck you want all you need to know is it's not subject to spell resistance.

[kzt]

My opinion is the ability grants nothing because it is incomplete.

What they did is akin to the candy store owner saying "take one of anything kid" and then just silently watching in dismay as you take his cash register. But yeah, who the hell going to be so stupid as let their players get away with this kind of crazy?

[RadiantPhoenix]

Then I refer to: Read something. Because literally no one is claiming otherwise. Some people believe that it is completely RAW legal (using the word, for example "explicitly") and others that it is not.

But no one has claimed they need any interpolation. That issue never came up at all, until you brought it up.

My impression was that wotmaniac was, in fact, attempting to use interpolation and/or extrapolation as an argument:

• There are things which Sarrukhs allegedly modified
• Some of those things have spell-like abilities
• Therefore, Sarrukhs can use manipulate form to grant those spell-like abilities
• ???
• Therefore, Sarrukhs can grant all sorts of spell-like abilities

(Also ignoring the possibility that those creatures already had those spell-like abilities and the modifications were other things, or that they might have used other means, such as whatever magic they used to grant themselves Manipulate Form)

[...You Lost Me]

blah blah dumb Kaelik dumb...

Why are you so emotionally invested in this argument.

Have you ever read one of Kaelik's arguments? The emotional scale of this conversation is the Kaelik equivalent of those conversations you have when you're half-asleep and talking on the phone.

[K]

We should remember that this argument is dependent on DMs allowing Sarruks in the game and/or setting at all. DMs are under no obligation to allow every setting-specific supplement and splatbook into their campaign, and anyone saying otherwise probably has a problem distinguishing fantasy from reality and games from real life.

It really is a "I can become a god if the DM lets me" argument no different than "I can become a god if one grants me divine ranks because the rules say that they can and the DM let it happen."

I mean, I can totally get a Diplomacy or Bluff check so high that I can convince a god to give me a Divine Rank. Is that relevant at all since it involves the DM letting me personally talk to gods?

[Username17]

My opinion is the ability grants nothing because it is incomplete.

What they did is akin to the candy store owner saying "take one of anything kid" and then just silently watching in dismay as you take his cash register. But yeah, who the hell going to be so stupid as let their players get away with this kind of crazy?

Except it's not even that. Because the Manipulate Form ability still doesn't say that you can take anything. It doesn't even say you can take something. It says that there are things it will let you take. Then it goes on to fail to tell you what those things actually are, but it does give some examples of things that are explicitly in that category. And those things are zero level bullshit that no one gives a fuck about.

The whole thing where people jump from the thing where it says it grants "an extraordinary ability" to claiming that it grants any extraordinary ability on any monster anywhere in the game is just insane. In our candy store analogy, that's a cash register that isn't even in the candy store at all. What's really hilarious about this, is that many of these people refuse to believe that the Rogue's Bonus Feat can include feats they don't qualify for even though that is explicitly how it works. There actually are "feat lists" that a "bonus feat" can be selected from, and the Rogue really does give you one feat that is a completely unrestricted bonus feat. But there aren't any "selectable extraordinary ability" lists that you get to pick things off of whenever you gain "an extraordinary ability". That's not a thing that exists in D&D.

Now don't get me wrong, Manipulate Form is a broken ability. It allows two creatures who have it and access to size changing to spend a pretty long time being extremely vulnerable in order to gain permanent and completely uncapped bonuses to Strength and Constitution. That's a real thing that the RAW ability really does. After spending an arbitrarily long time in Sarrukh cocoons you can have an arbitrarily large amount of hit points and hit for an arbitrarily large amount of weapon damage. And that's broken. But none of the other things that people claim the ability does are actually things it does.

It's just the spell design rules for abilities. Except that the examples are all really shitty zero-level abilities that no one gives a fuck about. Anything you could do with Manipulate Form's ability grant is something a 1st level Wizard could do by using the spell design system to create a new cantrip to do the same thing.

-Username17

[ishy]

--* now, I think it bares pointing out since creating new spells falls under the pervue of DM fiat, it's not even a consideration when contemplating "all-things-being-equal" type stuff -- which is why even TO insanity sticks with published material.

I'm missing something here I think. Why would creating new spells fall under DM fiat? Unless I missed it, nothing in the description tells you the DM has to okay it or anything like that. The only reason I can see for saying it should fall under DM fiat, is common sense.
Which would just as much apply to any TO trick.

- Edit Absurd sidenote:

*note on "physical alterations": that's not even an exhaustive or exclusionary list -- just look again at the specific verbiage: [ . . . ]

My PHB tells me the typical weight and height of humans, that is not an exhaustive or exclusionary list by any means. Does that mean I can make humans of any size or weight in your campaign?

[nockermensch]

First, 2 things:
1) it says absolute command. that is a very key qualifier. You cannot simultaneously be a gods minion and have absolute command over him -- it's simply impossible.

1) it doesn't say minion, it says servant.
2) A CEO who also owns 100% of the stock in a corporation is simultaneously a servant of that corporation and has absolute control over that corporation. There is nothing essential in the definition of servant that makes it incompatible with absolute control. You could have absolute control over your cat and still be its servant.

it would never occur to any sane author to take in to account the goddamned rules for divine ranks when writing a sub-epic spell; so your last statement is a complete non sequitur.

You are going to have to replace "your last statement" with an actual statement here, and then explain your reasoning, because I do not see how literally any of my statements become non-sequiturs based on what "sane authors" do or do not consider when writing sub-epic spells.

EDIT: If I were to guess, I suppose you misunderstood my statement about Manipulate Form granting Ice Assassin. I am not saying "if you allow X, there is no balance reason to not allow Y."

I am saying "under the actual rules of Manipulate Form, if you can grant even a single SLA of any kind at all, then you can grant any SLA at all, including one you just made up" under the rules.

Because any argument you could ever make that RAW allows you to grant Magic Missile also allows you to RAW grant SLAs that don't yet exist, but grant Divine Ranks.

Now, I personally think that Manipulate Form straight up cannot give even Magic Missile at CL 1 once a day by RAW.

This is essentially correct. If Pun-Pun exists, then his creation can be short-circuited to one action after you gave your familiar Manipulate Form. All those loopy ways to grant near infinite abilities, BAB, etc, are wankery seemingly designated to make people believe they're reading something "legal".

REALLY SHORT GUIDE TO WINNING D&D:
1) be a reptile, and give your familiar the Manipulate Form ability of a Sarrukh
2) have your familiar grant you the "Win D&D Forever (Su)" ability you just wrote. This ability gives you any power you already read about in a Pun-Pun thread.
3) try not to cry
4) cry a lot

[Prak]

We should remember that this argument is dependent on DMs allowing Sarruks in the game and/or setting at all. DMs are under no obligation to allow every setting-specific supplement and splatbook into their campaign, and anyone saying otherwise probably has a problem distinguishing fantasy from reality and games from real life.

It really is a "I can become a god if the DM lets me" argument no different than "I can become a god if one grants me divine ranks because the rules say that they can and the DM let it happen."

I mean, I can totally get a Diplomacy or Bluff check so high that I can convince a god to give me a Divine Rank. Is that relevant at all since it involves the DM letting me personally talk to gods?

I kind of like the idea of having a sarrukh or similar as an Nov who rewards the players through using manipulate form...

[Mistborn]

REALLY SHORT GUIDE TO WINNING D&D:
1) be a reptile, and give your familiar the Manipulate Form ability of a Sarrukh
2) have your familiar grant you the "Win D&D Forever (Su)" ability you just wrote. This ability gives you any power you already read about in a Pun-Pun thread.
3) try not to cry
4) cry a lot

No you retard. You can't give yourself "Win D&D Forever (Su)" because no such ability exists.

[Username17]

REALLY SHORT GUIDE TO WINNING D&D:
1) be a reptile, and give your familiar the Manipulate Form ability of a Sarrukh
2) have your familiar grant you the "Win D&D Forever (Su)" ability you just wrote. This ability gives you any power you already read about in a Pun-Pun thread.
3) try not to cry
4) cry a lot

No you retard. You can't give yourself "Win D&D Forever (Su)" because no such ability exists.

So what? The Sarrukh's manipulate form ability doesn't grant "any ability that exists on a monster", it grants abilities that you can convince your DM it should grant. The sample abilities are not, to my knowledge, to be found on any monster anywhere. If you can convince your DM that it should be able to grant something obviously stupid and overpowered like Magic Immunity or at-will Miracle, why the fuck not just cut the bullshit and ask the DM for "Win D&D Forever (Su)"?

Making up new abilities that aren't on any monster or class list is actually following the guidelines of the Manipulate Form ability. All the bullshit about grabbing massively overpowered abilities isn't, but none of that Pun Pun shit is any different. "Win D&D Forever (Su)" is actually closer to what the book actually says you can do than any of that bullshit they came up with on the old CharOp board.

-Username17