The Difficulty in RPGs thread

Saxony · Post by **Saxony** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:26 am

"Able to be beaten" and "is competitive" are two different things. Competition requires multiple actors comparing results and determining who "did better". Games don't require beating for competition.

Beatability requires setting up a win condition ahead of time (whether this is the designer or the player depends on the game) and then achieving that win condition.

In any case, DnD can be beaten. In nearly every time I have played DnD, that is how it works. You play through the campaign, you beat the final boss, game over, you win. A new campaign is begun and the cycle repeats. There are optional ways of "beating the game" like having characters survive the whole way through, or overcoming obstacles in creative ways, or achieving self set character goals.

But basically it comes down to beating the final combat. Once you do that, you've won.

Saxony · Post by **Saxony** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:27 am

On a side note, based on K's posting patterns, I'm going to assume he's trolling or going through a rough patch.

In either case, K, hopefully you'll return to your former state.

Almaz · Post by **Almaz** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:34 am

K wrote:It's literally the whole philosophy behind grinding.

Grinding has nothing to do with difficulty.
Zip, zero, none.

I can easily generate a really complex game that takes relatively little time to grasp the rules (Go), and we can easily generate very hard games that are not very long in duration (some card games are this). Time investment has shit-all to do with difficulty.

Your assertion that the two are the same is simply illogical. It is erroneous and idiotic. Just because there is a correlation between time investment and difficulty does not mean they are the same thing. You are also taking your apparent anecdotal information as a lot more than it is, and committing yourself to some very basic fallacies in judgement. The plural of anecdote is not data. You do not have a survey of roleplaying gamers. In short,

Shut the fuck up.

I like playing games that are complex and difficult but also have low time investments. My main aversion to D&D is because of its time investments in order to play it (which are more a failure of information organization and systemic issues than inherent), but when I do play it, I play it on a fairly competitive level, because I wish to strategically and tactically defeat challenges, and so does the rest of the group. Including referees who like to present complex and nuanced challenges. We will homebrew material because it is literally less time intensive for us to simply design the material we wish to use than cherrypick from dozens of books.

And my personal life? That features running gags about my success at social activities, amongst my friends. I do plenty of other things and derive enjoyment from them. I have spare time, but it has a lot better returns than investment on shitty games, so I don't spend it that way when possible.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:09 am

Saxony wrote:In either case, K, hopefully you'll return to your former state.

This is K's normal state. If I may fangirl about K for a minute. He's clearly a very unusual thinker. Read almost any of his posts, he clearly thinks in a weird and outside the box fashion. His design reflects this and it's one of the things that makes it valuable. K is the first person who's writings ever made it clear to me he wasn't thinking like every other D&D poster around. He's the reason I'm here and I think very highly of his writing. That said however a lot of his writing is off the fucking wall crazy. But it's often hard to tell what's out there and unusual and weird because it's outside the box and forward thinking enough to be hard to follow, or just because it's goddamn fucking crazy.

K posts crazy shit all the time. Seriously most of what he posts is really out there. But some of it is really valuable and it can often take careful reading to figure out if any given crazy thing is a crazy thing that you need to log onto if you want to design better.

Stubbazubba · Post by **Stubbazubba** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:58 am

...You Lost Me wrote:In your blistering rage, you're confusing "people I like" with "successful, well-rounded". Successful, well-rounded people are (by K's very obvious definition) people that are good at everything and do everything a little bit.

No, you're being a moron. Being successful means you have achievements to speak of, somewhere. Being well-rounded means you don't over-specialize in any one thing to the exclusion of others. These are not mutually exclusive terms. You can be a successful doctor and still be well-rounded. You can be a successful programmer or engineer or politician or athlete, and when you're off the clock, you're still perfectly well-rounded.

You're probably not the absolute best doctor in the world, or the best athlete in the world, nor are you perfectly well-rounded, but none of that stops you from being accurately described as simultaneously successful & well-rounded. What's more, who's to say some people aren't generally good at things? Many people are born with or develop quite a bit of skill in a wide variety of activities both intellectual, physical, social, and otherwise. Some people are actually successful in multiple things at once. Again, you don't have to be Steve Jobs to be considered successful. What's to keep all those regular, unwashed masses from being described as successful and well-rounded?

K (and you) apparently believes that for someone to be accurately described as successful it means they're in the top few percentiles of the population for a given activity. That's completely untrue.

I don't see the difference...

Hyper-competitive would imply someone at the very top of their game, relative to all other players. High difficulty just means someone who plays the game on high difficulty. One is a statement of relative competence, the other is a statement of difficulty preference.

Oh lord, he already said they're in the minority. Do you know why? Because they are.

You seem to be suffering from the belief that I'm arguing against his demographics smokescreen. Yes, it's evidently true that gamers who like high difficulty have different needs than those who prefer low difficulty, and a wise designer would separate design goals (or allow for difficulty to be toggled somehow), but I haven't addressed anything about that.

Before that, he made a blanket statement ascribing a universal motivation to high difficulty players, and that statement was dead wrong. How much time high difficulty players spend playing games is largely irrelevant to their motivation, but he has argued otherwise. He is arguing that because games with high difficulty (typically) take a long time to master, and most people who invest that time are those who like difficulty, that all people who like difficulty therefore have the time to do that (since they have no other activities of worth to them). That analysis is burdened by the huge fallacy where he assumes that those who beat or master the game are a representative example of people who like difficulty, and therefore arrives at the erroneous conclusion that people who like difficulty lack rewarding lives, therefore they have the time to beat/master those games. That's the bone I'm picking here.

Yes, if you played a game for two hours a week for 1 year, you would start at the lower level of difficulty, just like K already said.

? Who said this was the case? Don't most people start on 'Normal,' not Easy?

Once you have 100 hours, you will be OK playing tougher games,

What does OK mean in this context? Competent? In the 3rd percentile of gamers? Content with yourself? I don't even know what you're trying to argue here.

Your argument is that a WoW designer, who is getting paid and was selected for his position, who likely has a vast collection of data to draw from, who is making a statement (indicating confidence within the organization) as to which of only 2 groups is a majority, is dumb and wrong because you don't like his opinion. That's the dumbest thing I've had to read in this thread, including the OP and Mistborn's greentext post.

I have said nothing about the actual statement, you need to get off of that, because I have not made that argument ever. I was commenting on K's implicit trust in the game designers because of their success.

I'll give you a mea culpa on this one, because looking back on what he said, he never said they weren't wrong because of their success, he just said that it's silly to think that they are trying to personally insult someone. Which is true, but it doesn't prevent them from using bad data and flawed philosophies to inadvertently insult you, which is how I read it. It sounded like, "Look, these guys are right because their money says so." Which really doesn't sound like K.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:15 am

...You Lost Me wrote:
Stubbazubba wrote:Who are you and what have you done with K? Isn't that what we do on this forum? Just because WoW designers are higher paid or their products more popular than their counterparts in the TTRPG industry doesn't magically make them immune to stupidity. Seriously, what happened to K?
Seriously, it's like someone rustled your jimmies and in your desire to call them dumb and wrong for making fun of your friends you're completely forgetting to write a decent argument.

Your argument is that a WoW designer, who is getting paid and was selected for his position, who likely has a vast collection of data to draw from, who is making a statement (indicating confidence within the organization) as to which of only 2 groups is a majority, is dumb and wrong because you don't like his opinion. That's the dumbest thing I've had to read in this thread, including the OP and Mistborn's greentext post.

Stop strawmanning. That is not his argument at all. His argument is not, hurr durr they say something I don't like thus they must be stupid.
His argument is, that just because their product happens to be more popular than their TTRPG counterparts, doesn't mean that their designers are actually competent.

In fact I'd even go as far to say that the designers are incompetent. Keep in mind they are still blaming D&D for their own design choices that they don't like themselves.
Or if you want I can give you some examples of obvious stupid shit they've done.

Not to mention that even though they are expanding their game to more and more countries, the playerbase is actually dropping with the new expansion.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:10 pm

Saxony wrote:"Able to be beaten" and "is competitive" are two different things. Competition requires multiple actors comparing results and determining who "did better". Games don't require beating for competition.

Beatability requires setting up a win condition ahead of time (whether this is the designer or the player depends on the game) and then achieving that win condition.

In any case, DnD can be beaten. In nearly every time I have played DnD, that is how it works. You play through the campaign, you beat the final boss, game over, you win. A new campaign is begun and the cycle repeats. There are optional ways of "beating the game" like having characters survive the whole way through, or overcoming obstacles in creative ways, or achieving self set character goals.

But basically it comes down to beating the final combat. Once you do that, you've won.

Yes. But this thread is about if there's an objective way to measure how hard is to beat the campaign (protip: there's not)

echoVanguard · Post by **echoVanguard** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:39 pm

deanruel87 wrote:This is K's normal state. If I may fangirl about K for a minute. He's clearly a very unusual thinker. Read almost any of his posts, he clearly thinks in a weird and outside the box fashion. His design reflects this and it's one of the things that makes it valuable. K is the first person who's writings ever made it clear to me he wasn't thinking like every other D&D poster around. He's the reason I'm here and I think very highly of his writing. That said however a lot of his writing is off the fucking wall crazy. But it's often hard to tell what's out there and unusual and weird because it's outside the box and forward thinking enough to be hard to follow, or just because it's goddamn fucking crazy.

K posts crazy shit all the time. Seriously most of what he posts is really out there. But some of it is really valuable and it can often take careful reading to figure out if any given crazy thing is a crazy thing that you need to log onto if you want to design better.

Let's be clear. What K posted is not unique, valuable, or meaningful in any fashion, nor is it indicative of any sort of advanced nonconformist worldview. It was a repugnant personal opinion utterly lacking in worth on any level, which was actively detrimental to both the discourse at hand and the hobby at large. There is no correlation, implied or observed, between his ability to design unique, engaging, and creative content and his espoused belief that people who enjoy difficult games live lives that don't grant a sense of self-worth. "You're a loser for investing your time in things I don't think are important or meaningful" is not a manifesto, an incisive observation, or a glimpse into a fascinating vista of possibility. It is a turd in the punchbowl of discourse.

I'm not saying your conclusion is wrong - for all I know, K could be a mad genius fueled by the music of the spheres who is inspired by the Time Cube to create great RPG content. I am saying I don't care, because there's no excuse for a designer to post such feculence.

echo

K · Post by K » Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:47 pm

You know, I was only talking about "self-worth" in relation to the people who get furious at other players who play the same content at a lower difficulty. It was a response to quoted sections about people who do that.

I never thought that it would be a controversial statement to point out that getting mad at other gamers for enjoying games means that something is probably wrong with your life.

But hey, this is the thread where pointing out that skill takes time to develop is a hanging offense that demands that people brag about how awesome their lives are and how hardcore gamers they are.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:59 am

K wrote:You know, I was only talking about "self-worth" in relation to the people who get furious at other players who play the same content at a lower difficulty. It was a response to quoted sections about people who do that.

I never thought that it would be a controversial statement to point out that getting mad at other gamers for enjoying games means that something is probably wrong with your life.

We both know that this is you walking back your original statement. And that's good, because your original statement is something that should be walked back. For reference, here it is again:

Earlier K wrote:The people who need high difficulty to enjoy things are never going to understand people who can enjoy games for other reasons.

The high difficulty gamers are living through the game to get a sense of self-worth since their actual lives don't have that, and that's just not a world-view that can be reconciled with any ordinary gaming experience.

I know this because I used to be a high-difficulty gamer, and now that my life is richer I don't have the need to get bragging rights so that I can brag to myself about how hardcore I am. For example, getting to Monster Difficulty 10 in Diablo 3 or playing Hardcore mode in D3 was something that I would have done when I was 15, and now I can only see the 500 hours it would take to do that is a waste of so much time better spent.

See, your original statement is in fact just you being butthurt at people who enjoy high-difficulty games, and you likening people who enjoy playing on Hardcore in Diablo to 15 year olds who don't have "rich lives". It's exactly the sort of "getting mad at other gamers for enjoying games" that you now admit is fundamentally wrong. And that is why people are pissed off at you. They have a right to be, because what you actually said back on page 9 was really offensive. And the farther and faster you distance yourself from that, the better things will be.

-Username17

K · Post by K » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:35 am

Hey Frank, not including the whole post is really sloppy and deceptive. My post was a reply to a specific piece of text about people who get mad at other gamers for enjoying games at lower difficulty.

Here is the full text of my post:

K wrote:
Wrathzog wrote:
Aryzbez wrote:So it should matter, that they're unable to take on level appropriate threats, diminishes how heroic and cool, they think their characters are.
I've been thinking about it and this is the same exact shit that came up when Mass Effect 3 revealed Narrative Mode. Narrative Mode put the game on super-easy, trivializing encounters for players who just wanted to get from one cut-scene to the next without all that shooty stuff getting in the way. And people got so Fucking FURIOUS about a game mode that they were never going to pick.
The people who need high difficulty to enjoy things are never going to understand people who can enjoy games for other reasons.

The high difficulty gamers are living through the game to get a sense of self-worth since their actual lives don't have that, and that's just not a world-view that can be reconciled with any ordinary gaming experience.

I know this because I used to be a high-difficulty gamer, and now that my life is richer I don't have the need to get bragging rights so that I can brag to myself about how hardcore I am. For example, getting to Monster Difficulty 10 in Diablo 3 or playing Hardcore mode in D3 was something that I would have done when I was 15, and now I can only see the 500 hours it would take to do that is a waste of so much time better spent.

Do you really think that I quoted the text and yet was not addressing it? Why would I even take the effort to include it if I was making a general statement about the thread topic?

Seriously, this board is getting far too much about insulting people at the drop of a hat for any hint of a perceived slight.

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[/img]

But yeh, you caught me. I totally did not say "the high-difficulty gamers who get mad at other gamers for enjoying games at a lower difficulty" and just assumed that people would know from the context of the quoted text that I meant that when I shortened that mouthful to "high-difficulty gamers."

Good lesson. I won't assume people will read more than single sentences in posts or read anything in context.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:13 am

K pls stop, this is not a thread for wailing about people liking things you dislike.

So despite the fact that a large number of factors exist that contribute to the difficulty of a TTRPG (it being a sum total of a huge number of decisions by the GM) it is still to some degree measurable. Thus some degree of "objective difficulty" exists in most TTRPG scenarios.

We can also make conclusions like this. 3e D&D and it's derivatives have a large amount of "fake difficulty" created be the overabundance of trap options at character generation. In general such fake difficulty is highly undesirable.

echoVanguard · Post by **echoVanguard** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:14 pm

K wrote:But yeh, you caught me. I totally did not say "the high-difficulty gamers who get mad at other gamers for enjoying games at a lower difficulty" and just assumed that people would know from the context of the quoted text that I meant that when I shortened that mouthful to "high-difficulty gamers."

I don't think anyone here is confused or unclear about what you meant in your post, but just to ensure we're all operating on a common field of context, let's perform the substitution you talk about above in your original post.

K wrote:The people who need high difficulty to enjoy things are never going to understand people who can enjoy games for other reasons.

The high difficulty gamers the high-difficulty gamers who get mad at other gamers for enjoying games at a lower difficulty are living through the game to get a sense of self-worth since their actual lives don't have that, and that's just not a world-view that can be reconciled with any ordinary gaming experience.

I know this because I used to be a high-difficulty gamer, and now that my life is richer I don't have the need to get bragging rights so that I can brag to myself about how hardcore I am. For example, getting to Monster Difficulty 10 in Diablo 3 or playing Hardcore mode in D3 was something that I would have done when I was 15, and now I can only see the 500 hours it would take to do that is a waste of so much time better spent.

Note that including that context and additional information didn't change your assertions that:

people who need high difficulty to enjoy things are never going to understand people who can enjoy games for other reasons, and
those people are living through the game to get a sense of self-worth since their actual lives don't have that.

Even being exceptionally generous and assuming that you also meant to only limit both assertions to the subset of "high-difficulty gamers" who "who get mad at other gamers for enjoying games at a lower difficulty", making the assumption that those people "are living through the game to get a sense of self-worth since their actual lives don't have that" is presumptuous, offensive, and stupid. It is an indefensible, valueless position which serves no purpose other than to denigrate other people, and not even in an amusing way. It is probably the worst thing I have ever read on this board, and by God, that is saying something.

Let's be real here: you said something you now wish you didn't. It happens to all of us. You only have two good options here: you can walk away and pretend it never happened, or you can apologize. But saying you're just woefully misunderstood isn't fooling anyone.

echo

TheTruth · Post by **TheTruth** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:15 pm

The simple truth of the matter isn't that people like K and PhoneLobster prefer easy games, or that they hate difficult games, or anything of that sort. It's that they played D&D, this happened http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANk8dEEVjLM, and rather than get better they'd rather make everyone else worse. It's shameful they then went on to claim being bad at something is a virtue, and being good at something is a sin but the instant they started raging against failure they have already gone full retard and devolved into a self loathing spiral. Here's one more thing to be s/mad about: You guys are the laughing stocks of multiple forums.

K · Post by K » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:15 pm

echoVanguard wrote:It is an indefensible, valueless position which serves no purpose other than to denigrate other people, and not even in an amusing way.

Knowing that you can't meet certain demands of the player base is invaluable information for someone designing a game. It's certainly dismissive and disrespectful to say that you shouldn't even try to make that subset of people happy, but it's completely essential if you are going to make something that makes anyone happy at all.

Figuring out who you will never make happy is actually key to any competent design. The guy who wants rape mechanics in DnD has to be completely ignored forever just like the guy who wants to ratchet up the baseline difficulty of your game so that 90% of the players can't play the game any more. This is for the simple reason that you won't have a fun game for most people anymore if you do either of those things.

Some people are unreasonable and they actively want things that make bad games that few people will want to play. The customer is not always right, especially when what they want is stupid.

That being said, you are defending people who get furious when other gamers play the same games at a lower difficulty. Not only are you advocating for bad games, but you are advocating for the kind of behavior that is corrosive to any gaming community. Dismissing those people is essential on those grounds alone.

I understand that dismissing anyone makes me look like a dick, but I stand by the premise that it's essential even if it's distasteful. It's literally the only way to keep rape out of DnD and make games that are fun to play for most of your potential players, and I accept that trade-off.

Wrathzog · Post by **Wrathzog** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

TheTruth wrote:Here's one more thing to be s/mad about: You guys are the laughing stocks of multiple forums.

I like this guy.

Soda · Post by **Soda** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:37 pm

TheTruth wrote:and rather than get better they'd rather make everyone else worse

I don't see how anyone can call K bad at D&D. I'd like to see your well-known homebrew.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:52 pm

So long as K essentially backpedals from the stance of "enjoying difficult games is for basement dwelling losers" and cleaves closer to the "catering to the high difficulty crowd will make your niche game even more niche" line of thought, I'll stand by that. We've firmly established LM's stance as a Stop Having Fun Guy, which is also toxic to the hobby.

Can we skip the obvious slippery slope that this means a ringing endorsement of 4E? You can have the game be too 'ez-mode', and the lack of challenge is not going to engage the player enough for them to want to return.

3E is the most popular edition of D&D, so that alone shows that the tabletop demographic can handle some level of difficulty. No, objective difficulty is lower than what people realize, but expected system mastery is still higher than many other systems out there. Personally, I feel D&D's cultural inertia makes people more forgiving of its difficulty; so unless you're taking Mearls's place, any game you make needs to be easier than D&D to reach broad acceptance. How much easier is up for debate.

I lost track in this morass, are we even talking about one kind of difficulty? The chances of losing, the severity of losing, the time investment, the learning curve, and the reward for system mastery are all indicators of difficulty; and are all largely independent.

echoVanguard · Post by **echoVanguard** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:58 pm

K wrote:Knowing that you can't meet certain demands of the player base is invaluable information for someone designing a game[...]Figuring out who you will never make happy is actually key to any competent design. The guy who wants rape mechanics in DnD has to be completely ignored forever just like the guy who wants to ratchet up the baseline difficulty of your game so that 90% of the players can't play the game any more. This is for the simple reason that you won't have a fun game for most people anymore if you do either of those things.

Some people are unreasonable and they actively want things that make bad games that few people will want to play. The customer is not always right, especially when what they want is stupid.

These are all true statements, but there is a significant and critical difference between saying that people want something you don't want, and saying that people who want that something are losers who lead unfulfilling lives and seek fulfilllment from games. One is a useful tool in designing a product, and the other is, well, rhetorical offal.

K wrote:That being said, you are defending people who get furious when other gamers play the same games at a lower difficulty.

No, but I am saying that denigrating those people is pointless and vile. Denigrating their behavior is another matter entirely.

K wrote:Not only are you advocating for bad games, but you are advocating for the kind of behavior that is corrosive to any gaming community.

Again, no. I'm saying that what you said is terrible and that you, as a designer, should be held to a higher standard. If you want to make games explicitly for the low-difficulty crowd, that is a worthy and valuable endeavor. But saying that the high-difficulty crowd is intrinsically unworthy of being made games for is both offensive and pointless.

There are people out there who like games and types of gameplay that we (you and I) can generally agree upon as being objectively terrible. We should not make games for those people, and we should not allow those types of gameplay in games that we make. But high-difficulty games are not part of that subset of games and gameplay. We do not agree that those types of games and gameplay are objectively terrible. And we definitely should refrain from making moral, spiritual, or otherwise value-based judgements upon the character of people who like those types of games or gameplay in the same manner that we could make judgements upon people who like things we universally agree are terrible, like rape or torture. Conflating those two groups is tremendously bad logic in addition to being horrible, reprehensible behavior.

echo

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:59 pm

virgil wrote:We've firmly established LM's stance as a Stop Having Fun Guy, which is also toxic to the hobby.

Not really I'm on record as being fine with low difficulty games in principal as long as they're done in a honest fassion.

TheTruth wrote: You guys are the laughing stocks of multiple forums.

Sup Roy.

K · Post by K » Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:25 pm

echoVanguard wrote: And we definitely should refrain from making moral, spiritual, or otherwise value-based judgements upon the character of people who like those types of games or gameplay in the same manner that we could make judgements upon people who like things we universally agree are terrible, like rape or torture. Conflating those two groups is tremendously bad logic in addition to being horrible, reprehensible behavior.

I don't really see a problem with calling out people for shitty behavior.

I mean, the people-who-get-mad-at-other-people-for-playing-a low-difficulty-version-of-the-same-game want to inflict suffering on people. They are quite open about how they want other players to suffer through high-difficulty games regardless of how unsatisfying and unenjoyable those games are for those players. The people-who-get-mad-at-other-people-for-playing-a low-difficulty-version-of-the-same-game literally are mad at people having fun, and it's not hard to cast them as Disney-level cartoon villains and frame their motivations through the lens of caricature.

Sure, it's dickish to speculate on why they are being so shitty and insulting and why they are Disney villains. I'll concede that they might be doing that for entirely different reasons, but I won't concede that people who want others to suffer might be good people.

You don't get a pass just because the suffering you want to inflict is just an unpleasant emotional experience.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:25 pm

IMO, severity of losing isn't part of it.

I would say that a game with, "high objective difficulty," is one where, "in order to have a high probability of not losing, you need to use a high level of system mastery," is true and a game with, "low objective difficulty," is one where that statement is false. "A high level of system mastery," means, to me, "most people will not be this good the first time they meet the game, and if they don't study hard (whether literal study, mastering similar games, or just playing a lot), they never will."

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I think establishing some categories of people for this discussion might be helpful:

"Stop having fun guys": People who get angry about the fact that people play the low-difficulty game at all.
"Stop lying guys": People who get angry about the fact that people play and beat the low-difficulty game and claim that that's the same as what this guy does when he beats the (high difficulty) game
"Stop messing up my game guys": People who get angry about the fact that (they perceive) the game getting easier for them, and think (rightly or wrongly) that that's because of people playing the low-difficulty game.
People who are not in any of the above categories.

K · Post by K » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:21 pm

You can probably add:

-"Guy who wants Steve's Bard to get killed so he'll make a new character," and,

-"Guy who wants a challenge for his min-maxed character and doesn't care if the rest of the party loses two PCs a session."

Foxwarrior · Post by **Foxwarrior** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:36 pm

That second one is a type of "stop messing up my game guy" who is correct in his assumption that the easy mode players are making the game too easy for him.

The bardslayer is either that too, or the opposite, depending on whether they think the DM is going easy on them because they have a Bard, or they think the party would be more successful with a stronger character.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:38 pm

Don't forget the:
-"Guy who makes a min-maxed character because the DM won't pull punches and the rest of the party would lose a PC every session."

Which was, in retrospect, because the DM considered lateral thinking cheating AND had an incongruous view of how the rules worked with the story in his head; like feeling the party is too powerful because it takes them two rounds to kill a 17th level wizard rather than eight.