Adventurer Economy

[Grek]

Your local smith's job is to forge items that are either rare enough that they have to be custom made (such as masterwork dire flails and chimera-sized steel codpieces), cannot be made of mage-forged iron (such as cold iron daggers and silver swords) and to repair metal goods that get broken. So, the local smith really doesn't have anything better to be doing than to cater to the whims of passing adventurers. Which is probably for the best, since that's good for the game.

Not quite. The mage is only going to be interested in supplying the high value items. Better to make a master lock than 23 nails from the same amount of material; and masterwork dire flails will be around because of demand from the Flind Merchant. Let the lowly smiths handle stuff like pots and nails and custom-made bulky stuff.

While it's certainly true that the Iron Wizard will be filling the demand for masterwork items first (since it has a higher profit margin) the fact is that there's not an unlimited demand for masterwork locks. Eventually, there will be one available for every person willing to buy a masterwork lock that year, and no more profit can be made through additional masterwork locks. The same goes for any particular set of iron goods you care to name. Eventually, he's going to work his way down the list to "iron nails" and start making this year's demand for those. And eventually he's going to have made all the iron goods he can sell that year, at which he stops making iron stuff and goes back to whatever it is he does in the other eleven months out of the year.

[virgil]

The Iron Wizard is certainly not going to do that even then. Fabricate is not restricted to iron and unless the wizard is matching the demand for a single city, he will never run out of goods that give a higher profit margin than nails, even if he extends his work schedule to an entire year.

[Grek]

Fabricate requires a Craft check. It's reasonable for a wizard to spend one of his 6-8 skills on a single Craft skill, but less reasonable for him to take multiple Craft skills. More likely, all of the fabricated wood, stone and so forth are done by other people. For the magical contribution to the economy, looking at:

The Iron Wizard, who uses Wall of Iron and Fabricate to do all of the iron-working.
One wizard who uses Fabricate on linen, silk and leather to mass produce clothing.
One wizard with Polymorph Any Object who does stone to salt, cinnamon to saffron and the like.
A team of dudes assisting a cleric who uses Plane Shift to loot gemstones from one of the planes that is full of gemstones.
A bunch of clerics who uses necromancy to do manual labour with zombies.
A bunch of druids and clerics who use Stone/Wood Shape to make cheap stone/wood items.
A bunch of druids and clerics who use Transmute Stone to Mud to make buildings.
A bunch of wizards who use Teleport to transport spices around.
A few dozen artifacters who make magic items and sell them to adventurers.
Probably a few other people here and there that I'm forgetting.

[Whatever]

Eh, the DCs for Craft top out at 20, aside from a few corner cases (exceptionally high AC armors, high str composite bows, some alchemicals). The wizard can take 10 if they're casting it at home, which is a safe assumption if they're doing this as a business. Assuming a minimum of 15 Int (to cast the level 5 Fabricate), they can get +2 from Heroism, +2 from Fox's Cunning, and then they only need 4 actual ranks in craft. Less with a higher Int, better buffs, or other situational boosts. They won't be crafting everything, but any one wizard could easily source 3-5 kinds of items that "require a high degree of craftsmanship" along with absolutely everything that doesn't.

[virgil]

Once you can cast polymorph any object, customers that have a need for nails and shirts are physically incapable of paying you. There isn't anything they can give you that you couldn't off-handedly make more than you can even use.

Just like how a psychologist isn't spending their free time working as a part-time register clerk, a wizard isn't going to cast fabricate for tens of gold per casting to fulfill the clothing demand of commoners just because he ran out of people wanting fancy pants.

[virgil]

I am curious as to the economic might of a single wizard (not high enough level to just leave the dimension and live in decadence).

Place: Scotland
Year: 1710
Population: 1.1 million
Annual Linen: 1.5 million square yards
Average Thickness of Linen: .02"

Scotland's economy was more focused on wool and animal hides, so this isn't even a major industry in the country (it will be later). About 12 thousand were employed in the linen industry at this time (harvesting, processing, spinning, weaving, tailoring), and this was an era where it was made during otherwise boring times, so it's not even a full-time and dedicated workforce. To keep up with a small country's minor textile industry, this fashion wizard needs to be on the clock 125 days out of the year, and that's just for the tailoring stage.

If you're obsessive and get Linen Mages to unemploy all but the farmers, you've got about a 750 castings of fabricate per year; supplanting the work of six thousand menial laborers. For these Linen Mages, the average casting of fabricate is worth a bit less than 300gp. This is completely not worth the effort, and it's covering a tiny fraction of an economy.

Demographics play a huge role here. If there's barely enough wizards both willing and able to sustain Scotland's linen industry, there's no hope of magic being the answer the way you seem to be assuming. From the demographics in the 3E DMG, looking only at a metropolis, there are four wizards capable of casting fabricate living in the city.

Can four wizards fill the material appetite of 25,000 people?

[Grek]

I'm not sure where you're getting those numbers. Leaving aside the issues inherent to using 18th century Scotland to approximate D&D (which is more of an iron age tech and population level), those don't match up with what I'm getting at all.

A 9th level wizard (the weakest one who can cast Fabricate) does 90 cubic feet of linen per casting of Fabricate. If we start with a 90 cubic foot box stuffed to the brim with raw flax fibers, at a density of 93.6 pounds per cubic foot, we get 8424 pounds of flax and therefore 8424 pounds of linen clothing per casting. The DMG gives a mass of 2 pounds for a peasant outfit, meaning that each casting produces 4212 outfits. If every peasant owns 3 sets of clothing, that is 1404 peasants clothed per casting, which brings us to ~1000 castings to clothe all of Scotland. Assuming 2 5th level spells a day, that's 500 days or about a year and a half to do it. Less if he is unusually intelligent, invests in a pearl of power, prepares spells multiple times per day or otherwise does something to increase his casting rate/caster level.

[virgil]

You cannot turn a pile of flax straight into suits and dresses. The spell requires the standard materials used in making the finished product, which for clothing is bolts of cloth. If that happens, you might as well stab a cow and instantly create a pile of candles; stare at the side of a mountain and make a stone statue in full-plate and wearing glasses; walk into a field of cannabis and float away in a basket attached to a hot air balloon (rope, canvas, oil, all from the wonder-weed).

If this is happening, then you need to answer an important question. What are all of these peasants paying him in exchange for clothing and nails? How is anyone paying this wizard? There is literally not a single product of their labour they can provide that the wizard couldn't fulfill for himself faster. If he wants to command a country, then a well-placed cloudkill will do the work of hundreds (if not thousands) of castings of fabricate. If he needs the services of divine magic, then he's generous if he provides two fabricate castings for every one of their unhallow castings to this very mercantile cleric; and that's an output which would be lucky to sustain a thorp unless the wizard's addicted to the high from restoration.

[tussock]

Does someone want a medieval economy with Wizards? Because I think there's a couple in the tomes. And I'm sure I have one somewhere. Anyhoo, peasants pay with the same things they pay everyone with, their labour and a cut of their future production.

If you propose a system where peasant's labour is worthless (because Wizards do it all) and thus their production is zero ... well, what happened IRL is the peasants could barely afford to eat, ended up half-starved all the time, and then the plague killed most of them, repeatedly, for most of a century, until wages finally went up and it stopped.

[Grek]

You cannot turn a pile of flax straight into suits and dresses. The spell requires the standard materials used in making the finished product, which for clothing is bolts of cloth. If that happens, you might as well stab a cow and instantly create a pile of candles; stare at the side of a mountain and make a stone statue in full-plate and wearing glasses; walk into a field of cannabis and float away in a basket attached to a hot air balloon (rope, canvas, oil, all from the wonder-weed).

You totally can. It says "You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material." Flax to shirts meets all of the qualifications: The material, in this case, is flax fibers. The flax fibers are all of one sort of material - flax fiber. The product is made of the material - linen shirts are woven flax fiber stitched together with flax fiber thread.

If this is happening, then you need to answer an important question. What are all of these peasants paying him in exchange for clothing and nails? How is anyone paying this wizard?

Metals that cannot be easily created with magic, such as gold, silver, copper, cold iron, mithral and adamantine.
Meat, grain, milk, cheese, vegetables and other farm goods, which are difficult to produce in both bulk and variety via magic*.
Worship of a God of the wizard's choice, guaranteeing the wizard an excellent afterlife for his many converts to the faith.
Poems, odes and other works of art glorifying the wizard's ego.
Slaves to send into the Arena to fight lions, hoping one will prove worthy to be the wizard's next lieutenant.
Slaves to be sacrificed atop a step pyramid in some sort of arcane ritual of ultimate power.
Slaves to be educated in the wizard's library and then eaten because the wizard also happens to be a mind flayer.
Or maybe he doesn't charge for this service; the wizard just gets his kicks by making all the peasants wear identical bright orange uniforms with floppy fake wizard's hats.
Or maybe he's just a humanitarian wizard and does because he wants the world to have to a higher standard of living as an end unto itself.
*You can easily get one or the other, but not both from any particular spell.

They're still producing things, it's just that the things they are producing don't line up 1 for 1 with what 18th century scottish farmers produced in real life.

[virgil]

Metals are easy. The wizard summons an earth elemental to find the nearest vein in a mountain side, makes a tunnel with rock to mud, then casts fabricate at the ore; directly making any weapons he needs.

Food? For a single gold piece, the hundred pounds of wheat will make all of the pasta, bread, and cookies he could need. We're already turning that cow (or other beast found in the woods) into candles, so we might as well make it into sausages and steaks. Thanks to prestidigitation and unseen servant, all of the cooking and flavour needs are completely covered.

Slaves? Lesser binding, animated dead, and simple intimidation all provide way more slaves than the wizard needs; and for drastically less effort than casting fabricate every day to keep them supplied in nails and clothes.

There is not a single material need the wizard lacks that he cannot provide himself. Even if the wizard chooses to interact with the economy, there is still no incentive to supply nails. Casting wall of iron & fabricate just once each will produce over 300 suits of full-plate at minimum (or some other comparably high profit good) and will fund an extravagant lifestyle for two hundred years; and I can guarantee you that 300 suits of full-plate every ten years will not only not saturate the market, but still keep the wizard in legendary decadence.

The only incentive a wizard has to corner the nail and t-shirt market in this instance is if you presume a level of humanitarianism that is unbelievable both RL historically and against almost every genre convention for the game. The best you can hope for is an isolated & xenophobic utopia controlled by a wizard god-king.

[Omegonthesane]

It's unprecedented generosity for a wizard to spend about 6 seconds and not a single permanent resource to shit out a Fabricate a day for the poor smallfolk who live pitiable lives and can never hope to threaten him?

(Not counting whichever fraction of his 8 hours, 15 minutes delay that he has to do every day regardless if he wants new spells is taken up by Fabricates of course.)

Also, traps. The Tomes postulated dungeons with Cure Wounds traps after all, and that was assuming no Good clerics with enough humanitarianism to start aspects of Tippy thinking such as Create Food & Water traps.

[virgil]

It's unprecedented generosity for a wizard to spend about 6 seconds and not a single permanent resource to shit out a Fabricate a day for the poor smallfolk

Judging by the history of revolts against the abuses of the elite, in a situation where the wealthy are both more vulnerable to and more dependent on, yes.

It still doesn't mean the wizard can keep up with the material demands of the population, unless you presume an incredible density of high level wizards willing to work for nothing.

[Wrathzog]

Are we forced to use Wizards for this exercise? Can we switch to Clerics and/or Druids instead? Feels like that would make things a little more palatable as they're more likely to do selfless things (in accordance with their particular faiths) and they're more likely to be reliant on others as their respective spell lists aren't as likely to be as all-encompassing as the Wizard's.

[flare22]

in your expert opinion how did soldiers in the middle ages get swords made and repaired

the local town didnt do it. the kings smithies would run non-stop to make weapons. being able to make nails doesnt make one able to make good swords.

you have been watching too many Johnny Depp Pirate's movies if you think smiting worked like that. Even then that smith was employed by the royal navy or whatever it was there, not just selling to all the peasants. peasants didnt fight with swords, they used the pitchforks, torches, axes, and other farm implements. this is because the peasant blacksmith was too busy shoeing horses, making nails and hammers and axes to be able to make swords.

whoever runs the army would have their own smith to handle armor and weapons, and probably a few, as well as apprentices. they would probably get the nails and such for building them FROM the peasant villages that makes enough of them so the sword smiths don't have to stop to make nails, horseshoes, etc.

do you even know your history look there were no standing armies in the middle ages when a war broke out they conscripted peasants to fight. the closest thing they had to professional soldiers was knights and mercenaries and yes knights got there swords made by a sword smith who was in the employ of their liege lord but that doesn't explain how mercenaries got swords the answer like i pointed out is that mercenaries had to buy them and they bought them from the same sword smith the knight goes to because that smith is not busy 24 7 he can afford to take special orders and he is going to except coin for that service.

or for another historical example of people buying swords how about the white company in England a groups of mercenaries know to have used longbows in addition to swords and even had cavalry but they were mercenaries and unaffiliated with lords so they had to buy swords with coin

[Username17]

do you even know you history look there were no standing armies in the middle ages when a war broke out they conscripted peasants to fight.

No. I didn't know that. I still don't, because it's not true.

Here, let's go to Wikipedia.

Abraham ben Jacob, who traveled in 961–62 in Central Europe, mentions that the drużyna of Polish Mieszko I had 3000 men, paid by the duke.

Now, a standing army of 3000 people is bullshit small by modern standards. But by the standards of the day, 3000 soldiers was kind of a lot. That's nearly the entire complement of either army that clashed in the Battle of Cedynia.

-Username17

[angelfromanotherpin]

If you want a larger example, the Byzantine standing army was also a thing that existed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagma_(military)

edit: damn tags

[shadzar]

do you even know you history look there were no standing armies in the middle ages when a war broke out they conscripted peasants to fight. the closest thing they had to professional soldiers was knights and mercenaries and yes knights got there swords made by a sword smith who was in the employ of their liege lord but that doesn't explain how mercenaries got swords the answer like i pointed out is that mercenaries had to buy them and they bought them from the same sword smith the knight goes to because that smith is not busy 24 7 he can afford to take special orders and he is going to except coin for that service.

or for another historical example of people buying swords how about the white company in England a groups of mercenaries know to have used longbows in addition to swords and even had cavalry but they were mercenaries and unaffiliated with lords so they had to buy swords with coin

or you remember that art imitates reality, and in the game people do what people did in order to get things... loot the corpses! a sellsword could be a member of bandits for a time, and could have stolen the arms or armor they have. "mass" produced weapons that were not custom pieces for nobility pretty much looked liked one another so you wouldn't know the short sword this guy carries is one from the loot stolen from someone.

how do some countries get war ships today? they buy them from places like the USA, a decommissioned ship becomes a new Mexico Naval vessel.

lets look at Chaucers work of the times, and not every smith could maintain or make a sword or armor, you have to find one that can, and has the time or permission. also not forget that a sellsword most commonly was from a failed army or other force, and probably got his first sword there, and when he "sells" his sword, it is his services that are needed so his current eomployer likely has acess to a weaponsmith to make him a new one of 5 if the need should arise, as well repair the one he has.

did underground exist weapons trade exist? ALWAYS! but it doesnt mean the masses were armed with swords. a peasant picking up a sword against a trained person will quickly be one less peasant. will another be foolish enough to pick up that sword?

this goes into some of the idea of proficiencies from AD&D, where swinging an axe is not the same as swinging a sword. you jsut have to accept the masses didnt have swords, didnt have access to them, nor people that would make them for them. if they had monarchies would have been gone LONG before they really were. this isnt the old west where "everybody has a goddamn gun Coop!" not all blacksmiths made swords, and not all that could or did, made them for just anyone. not just anyone was ALLOWED to have a sword as they were both a weapon and a symbol. martial law society or a war-like people maybe then all had swords, but the average bumpkin on the countryside didnt.

[Grek]

Are we forced to use Wizards for this exercise? Can we switch to Clerics and/or Druids instead? Feels like that would make things a little more palatable as they're more likely to do selfless things (in accordance with their particular faiths) and they're more likely to be reliant on others as their respective spell lists aren't as likely to be as all-encompassing as the Wizard's.

Nope. I specifically called out clerics and druids doing alot of this shit. Just, not specifically Fabricate on Walls of Iron, because you have to jump through some hoops to get both of those on a cleric/druid spell list.

[Previn]

Also, traps. The Tomes postulated dungeons with Cure Wounds traps after all, and that was assuming no Good clerics with enough humanitarianism to start aspects of Tippy thinking such as Create Food & Water traps.

Reminds me of the Tippyverse.

[Omegonthesane]

It's unprecedented generosity for a wizard to spend about 6 seconds and not a single permanent resource to shit out a Fabricate a day for the poor smallfolk

Judging by the history of revolts against the abuses of the elite, in a situation where the wealthy are both more vulnerable to and more dependent on, yes.

Does not follow, even if you had citations. Citizens revolt if the right circumstances combine does not mean that all but a few downright saintly people are willing to put negligible amounts of time and effort towards them. This is seriously the equivalent in effort of going "Oh, those poor smallfolk, such a shame the gods put people in such lowly places to remind me how fabulous I am" once a day - it's unprecedented IRL for people to be capable of as much for so little effort as wizards are in D&D.

It still doesn't mean the wizard can keep up with the material demands of the population, unless you presume an incredible density of high level wizards willing to work for nothing.

That one I'll give you, hence me postulating traps. And as has been repeatedly pointed out by now, it's not working for nothing, it's a hobby to keep your spellcasting skills sharp between adventures. And to stroke your ego of course - even if you're thoroughly outwardly benevolent, most of the smallfolk will be very grateful on their own steam.

[Username17]

Fabricate doesn't cost "practically nothing". It's very expensive. It's years of time to study iron working and spellcraft to be able to cast it at all. It's a pound of gold to get the wall of iron, it's an hour of work to prepare spells. Actually casting the spell is just six seconds, but now you're left with a huge heap of nails or some shit and it'll take hours to pack that up into something that makes sense to trade or distribute.

And don't forget the opportunity costs! Every time your Cleric of Vulcan uses a spell slot to make a pile of flatware for the Plebs, he could have made 450 gp for planeshifting a rich dude to the plane of whores.

The idea that spellcasters (plural) would spend any of their time donating their spellcasting prowess towards the end of increasing societal standards of living is deeply absurd. In actual history, the Sun King refused to spend six seconds giving the order to hand out bread. He refused that so hard that starving people of France cut his fucking head off. What the fuck is someone who has real power going to do in the face of much smaller numbers of starving peasants who aren't even capable of chopping his head off no matter what?

What percent of the population would Mitt Romney have derided as useless leeches if he wasn't even trying to win an election and the people in question didn't even make his coffee or gas up his car? While I'm sure you have some sort of crazed "SimCity Wizard" who spends his time juicing the economy with magical gifts because it amuses him to see a prosperous metropolis growing around him and he'd rather use the "extra carpets" cheat than wait for the market to provide them the long way - that would be regarded as deeply weird behavior by rich and poor alike.

-Username17

[Previn]

Fabricate doesn't cost "practically nothing". It's very expensive. It's years of time to study iron working and spellcraft to be able to cast it at all.

Eh, it's not really more so than any other profession, if that. A 16 year old can, before he hit his 17th birthday, be able to cast Wall of Iron and have 15 ranks in Craft. He can do that having no ability in either when he was 15. So it's about 1 years mechanically speaking.

It's a pound of gold to get the wall of iron, it's an hour of work to prepare spells. Actually casting the spell is just six seconds, but now you're left with a huge heap of nails or some shit and it'll take hours to pack that up into something that makes sense to trade or distribute.

It's a pound of gold to get start with walls. I don't think it's consumed in the casting.

While I'm sure you have some sort of crazed "SimCity Wizard" who spends his time juicing the economy with magical gifts because it amuses him to see a prosperous metropolis growing around him and he'd rather use the "extra carpets" cheat than wait for the market to provide them the long way - that would be regarded as deeply weird behavior by rich and poor alike.

Actually, I think that's called Altruism, and I'm pretty sure it happens pretty regularly on a day to day basis among both the rich and the poor. Even if you reject pure altruism, and say that there is personal gratification in the act for the individual, the end outcome is the same.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Eh, it's not really more so than any other profession, if that. A 16 year old can, before he hit his 17th birthday, be able to cast Wall of Iron and have 15 ranks in Craft. He can do that having no ability in either when he was 15. So it's about 1 years mechanically speaking.

First, that involves the 16-year-old spending that year in near-constant life-and-death struggles; which a lot of people will not do. Second, if you are working on the model of the world where crazy-rapid advancement is something that anyone can expect and not just a PC thing, then there is no recognizable economy at all because the world is being overthrown every month or so.

It's a pound of gold to get start with walls. I don't think it's consumed in the casting.

Then you think wrong. It's a component, not a focus, and absolutely is consumed in the casting.

[virgil]

Eh, it's not really more so than any other profession, if that. A 16 year old can, before he hit his 17th birthday, be able to cast Wall of Iron and have 15 ranks in Craft. He can do that having no ability in either when he was 15. So it's about 1 years mechanically speaking.

Pure casters take about twice as long as any other class to get started on their career, and then like all of the others require a rather steady influx of death-defying combat; over a hundred in fact.

It's a pound of gold to get start with walls. I don't think it's consumed in the casting.

It's a material component. Yes it is.

Actually, I think that's called Altruism, and I'm pretty sure it happens pretty regularly on a day to day basis among both the rich and the poor. Even if you reject pure altruism, and say that there is personal gratification in the act for the individual, the end outcome is the same.

Random altruism isn't going to be consistent or efficient. If a horde of mud covered farmers become economically desperate enough to grovel before a demi-god, quotidian crap like nails aren't going to be on their Christmas Wish List.

ADDENDUM: Humans can't get their 1st level in wizard until a minimum of 17 years of age, and the average is 22.