And there's strawman #2. Who claimed that Exalted is doing any sort of outreach? They have a transgendered character. They wanted to make him believable. Where does it say they're championing any rights whatsoever?Lago PARANOIA wrote:Look, if you're doing genuine outreach, you're doing it because of your core ideology of egalitarianism. If you're not, then your entire operation is a sham.mikal768 wrote:Who said that the books are trying to promote egalitarianism?
...Except I'm not saying they're doing outreach. This is a game book, not a tract outlining how life should be lived. It's about sorcery and swords and heroin pissing dinosaurs. It's not about "this is what is right and what is wrong and you as a person should follow it".Tokenism is stupid, but the other common motives for doing outreach without believing in egalitarianism are downright vile. If you're really trying to defend White Wolf, saying that they're doing LGBT outreach but don't believe in egalitarianism is much more of a disservice than just saying that they're engaging in bog-standard tokenism.
Except again, no outreach has been implied except by you (unless I missed it from someone else. If so, kindly link/quote them for me).Okay, so my argument is that the supposed LGBT outreach of stuff like the Diamond Prince is phony because:
Because your entire premise is flawed. You're arguing as if this was meant to be something more than a game book. The character was included because there are those types of beings in the game. The character isn't there for them to go "look at us. we're all about X/Y/Z/pi!".Having said all this, you utterly failed to poke a hole in my list.
No, I'm saying that there is no tokenism as mention of the characters transgenderedness is extremely low compared to the other aspects of the character, and the only one who is trumpeting this as an attempt to champion LGTB characters so far that I can see is you.Okay, so your contention is that the fans are promoting tokenism?
There are a few posts here and there from people going "hey, one of the first LGTB major characters in a game line. Cool!", but I don't see anyone attempting to hoist Exalted as an outreach or champion of any rights, whether it's social darwinism, transhumanism, LGBT rights, or monster rape.
Seeing as how you're the one who is claiming the book is something more than a god damned game book here, I don't quite see anyone being embarrassed here except for you. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar dude. And sometimes a game book is just a game book. But, again, echo chamber. I remember when this forum used to be about shitting GMs and players and bad mechanics. Now it seems that it's about claiming all books we don't like not only have bad mechanics, but are also pushing social agendas of some sort.Not the creators? Like, the creators just took the diversity as a matter-of-course but the fans were so desperate to find a redeeming aspect of the game that they pounced on it like half-frozen squirrels trying to warm themselves up on a bug zapper? Fair enough.
in that case, maybe you and your friends should stop trying to embarrass the company so much then?
We're saying the book is about cake and discussing the different ingredients on what may or may not make a good cake. Then you come in saying "But these ingredients make a terrible hammer!"
We're not discussing hammers. Or social agendas. We're discussing a game, the book is about a game, it's not about promoting lifestyles of any sort.