The Shadowrun Situation

Dragon Instincts · Post by **Dragon Instincts** » Fri May 31, 2013 4:27 pm

Stahlseele wrote: No idea why it takes them longer than us germans . . but eh, we go the errata first and only too ^^

I bet so hard that the adept's ork poser quality in the German quickstart rules was a fix. They probably took the picture of an ork and slapped it on a human char. Someone in Germany noticed that and gave her the Ork Poser quality as a last resort.

Whatever, here is a review of Euro Wars Antiques from Dumpshock.
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s ... &p=1230311

It makes me cringe. Euro Wars, now with the Free Marine Corps.
I bet the dev was a bit uneasy with the plot of American's abandoning their allies, so they sent the FMC at least.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Fri May 31, 2013 8:08 pm

After having read War!, Clutch and Stormfront, i don't think they are uneasy over such small stuff . .

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Fri May 31, 2013 8:34 pm

This reminds me of the first printing of the german 4e where Trolls did not have such stupid shit like willpower. Glad to see they don't learn. Like at all.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Fri May 31, 2013 8:47 pm

huh?
i don't remember that one . .

Cochise · Post by **Cochise** » Fri May 31, 2013 9:40 pm

To be honest: Prior to Pegasus' involvement the german SR versions had their fair share of bad translation and lack of proof reading (and at least part of the current german SR team was involved in such failures as well). First printing of SR3.01D was worse than even 4th limited (or it's german counterpart for that matter).

I'll always love the 10S throwing knife ...

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Fri May 31, 2013 10:21 pm

yeah, i'll admit that there was some bloody stupid johnson stuff . .

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:42 am

Nobody posted this?
Shadowrun, Fifth Edition Preview #3

Edit:
First page of preview:

This is a preview of an in-progress version of Shadowrun,
Fifth Edition, and proofing is still under way. Spelling,
grammar, "p. XX" references and so on may be updated
before heading to press.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:34 am

wasn't it off to the printers already when that bit was released?

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:56 am

At character creation, magicians who cast spells, perform
rituals, or create alchemical preparations may know a
maximum number of formulae from each group equal to their
Magic Rating x 2 (i.e., Magic Rating of 4 allows 8 spells, 8
rituals, 8 alchemical preparations).

A reason to get Ritual Sorcery?

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:23 pm

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:29 pm

Because you're capped at 8 spells, but you can get 8 different rituals. So rituals could be used to add some more versatility.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:29 pm

are there even that many rituals?
or does every spell cast via ritual magic count as a separate ritual?

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:36 pm

Stahlseele wrote:are there even that many rituals?
or does every spell cast via ritual magic count as a separate ritual?

No way of knowing that until the core book is actually in our hands. I was assuming the latter though.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:41 pm

Shadowrun: Short Bus Edition.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:54 pm

That sir, is an insult to short buses everywhere.
But man, I am impressed how they have managed to make me not want to play my favorite rpg of all time.

Almaz · Post by **Almaz** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:20 pm

So, more work on Asymmetric Threat, then?

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:22 pm

Yeah, at least short buses serve a purpose.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:38 am

Is there something superspecial about rituals, or why are 8 rituals more versatile than 8 spells. Sound like 8 bananas are more versatile than 8 apples.

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:10 am

I think the idea is that you could take 8 rituals and 8 spells.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:48 am

Korwin wrote:
At character creation, magicians who cast spells, perform
rituals, or create alchemical preparations may know a
maximum number of formulae from each group equal to their
Magic Rating x 2 (i.e., Magic Rating of 4 allows 8 spells, 8
rituals, 8 alchemical preparations).
A reason to get Ritual Sorcery?

Rawbeard wrote:Is there something superspecial about rituals, or why are 8 rituals more versatile than 8 spells. Sound like 8 bananas are more versatile than 8 apples.

name_here wrote:I think the idea is that you could take 8 rituals and 8 spells.

Yes, I red that as an "and".
But rereading it... Magic Rating x 2, not Skill Rating x 2, which is what my brain read the first time...

Edit: Third reading: "maximum number of formulae from each group".
Would an native speaker, speak up?

phlapjackage · Post by **phlapjackage** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:06 am

Sounds to me like there are 3 categories:
1. Casting spells, the PC can know MAG * 2 spells
2. Performing rituals, the PC can know MAG * 2 rituals
3. Alchemy, the PC can know MAG * 2 alchemy preparations

I guess there is a skill for each category, but that's only a guess. Something like in SR4 with Spellcasting/Ritual Spellcasting/Enchanting

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:16 am

I'm not as bitter and disgruntled as many of you about Shadowrun. I've been disappointed by what CGL has been releasing since Vice but from what I've seen so far about SR5 it doesn't look terribad and there are even some nice things.

I wasn't expecting much so, so far, I'm pleasantly suprised by what I've seen. I'm not saying I'll like it, but I think I'll give it a shot. And I still like it better than the den's CP heartbreaker.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 2:29 pm

Blade wrote:I'm not as bitter and disgruntled as many of you about Shadowrun. I've been disappointed by what CGL has been releasing since Vice but from what I've seen so far about SR5 it doesn't look terribad and there are even some nice things.

I wasn't expecting much so, so far, I'm pleasantly suprised by what I've seen. I'm not saying I'll like it, but I think I'll give it a shot. And I still like it better than the den's CP heartbreaker.

You are welcome to that viewpoint, but I remain unconvinced. And I'll tell you why.

Shadowrun 4 is a game with a lot of major problems. It has major problems in every single one of its major subsystems. Some of those major problems are so severe that the subsystem essentially cannot even be used (see: Matrix and Vehicles). But even the most common subsystem (Combat) suffers from severe issues of not scaling properly and being too fiddly. The game is badly in need of a new edition and the information on what can be changed in order to substantively improve the gameplay is totally available.

You don't need to fix every problem to make a new edition be better. Lord knows that 3rd edition D&D had problems up the wazoo and it was still the best D&D system ever produced. And so it was that SR4 managed to be the best version of Shadowrun in spite of having bugs ranging from major to literally game destroying in every major subsystem. And that is because, for all its numerous and extensively documented faults, SR4 has a core "action resolution mechanic" that is fast, powerful, intuitive, and highly functional. Cyberpunk characters need to do "stuff" to their environment all the time, and SR4's core mechanic for "doing stuff" is adaptable enough to handle all that while being fast and intuitive enough that it defuses most arguments before they even happen. It's really very good. I think it's literally the greatest core resolution mechanic for performing generic actions in any major role playing game.

So when Jason Hardy did the preview where he revealed that he was making the core resolution mechanic worse in every possible way, I was just fucking done. It doesn't matter how many of his fiddly bullshit changes are good or bad ideas moving forward from that, because having a really solid core resolution mechanic is literally one hundred percent of why SR4 is taken seriously as a game system at all. If it had a worse core action resolution system, then the fact that it takes hundreds if not thousands of die rolls to resolve an opposed computer hack or a car chase would get the game laughed at and binned out of hand. And rightfully so, because that shit is whack.

At the point where Jason unveiled his objectively terrible hit cap rules, there was no reason for me to give a single fuck about anything more that SR5 was about. There is nothing it could do that could possibly redeem it from that, because that is taking the one fucking thing that SR4 does well enough to take seriously and throw it out.

-Username17

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 2:52 pm

And it gets worse. Some of the changes they're making aren't just backasswards, but go against the grain of what has been proven to work. The whole spells/rituals/alchemical preparations nonsense tosses out working, integrated subsystems that are tied in to the setting for a bunch of unrelated crap that isn't.

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:01 pm

I understand your problems with CGL and with SR5. I agree that changing a core system which works is a dangerous move. But I don't think it's necessarily a bad one and I don't think you can blame someone just for doing it.

You can blame him for the way he does it. So far, the Limit system doesn't seem, in my opinion, to be the best idea ever, but it doesn't look like it will be game-breaking either. As for the rest, I haven't seen enough to be able to form a good opinion.

But actually I don't really care about game mechanics. I houserule a lot. My current campaign uses Mahjong tiles instead of dice, so that's not really what I'm interested in. I just hope, without really believing it, that they come up with good mechanics for the parts that were really faulty.

What I found interesting in what we have been able to see so far, is that it looks like that CGL has finally decided on a direction for the game instead of having it drift from one style to another depending on the writer. It might just be an impression, it might just be an intent that won't be followed, but if that turns out to be true, that would solve the main issue I had with Shadowrun since the new team got in place, and maybe even before that.