How do we get rid of the Fighter

[Lago PARANOIA]

No. No we should not vote on this.

People can go ahead and feel "uncomfortable" scrapping an unsalvageable class, but that is tough shit. If they don't have a legitimate way to salvage the class, they don't get a fucking vote.

B-b-butt Frank, just because no one wants to bell the cat and no one will ever want to bell the cat doesn't mean that belling the cat is a bad idea.

[Kaelik]

and if i tell you that i'm personally sure that this is due to the fact that people rather fix rules than drop them?

I don't see how this changes anything. Regardless of the reason, most people seem to be more comfortable with keeping the fighter around in some form or fashion than dropping it.

Should we vote on this?

No, you are confusing two different issues.

1) What someone thinks they will be able to get someone else to accept when they are making the changes themselves.

2) What they will prefer (or be ambivalent about) if someone else does the work for them.

If we drop the fighter from our game and replace it with characters who gain power from inherent magic in their blood (for like eight different reasons) or who master different kinds of melee combat but have magic power sources, how many people would really be upset?

Do you really think all those people who make fighter fixes would actually prefer for the fighter to be around if someone else was making a game that didn't include it?

Hint: Frank made a fighter fix. Frank does not want the Fighter around.

[Mistborn]

Let's get real here, Fighter is a term that means something in the context of D&D. In D&D fighter fails as a concept on two different levels. Any "new fighter class" that people want to fap about has do deal the fact that people expect the Fighter to be.

Mundane - which freezes him out of high level advancement

Sword Guy - which freezes him out any of the noncombat mini-games

You can't make a "Fighter" that doesn't suck without making something so alien to the original concept that it may as well be a different class.

Now what the Wrathzogs, Elennsar's, RPGsiters, and other associated fighter fappers of the world actually want is to, 1) come to the table without the ability to overcome challenges 2) overcome challenges anyway. Or in other words they want a free blowjob from the MC and it does the game a disservice to cater to them.

[Drolyt]

Let's get real here, Fighter is a term that means something in the context of D&D. In D&D fighter fails as a concept on two different levels. Any "new fighter class" that people want to fap about has do deal the fact that people expect the Fighter to be.

Mundane - which freezes him out of high level advancement

Sword Guy - which freezes him out any of the noncombat mini-games

You can't make a "Fighter" that doesn't suck without making something so alien to the original concept that it may as well be a different class.

Now what the Wrathzogs, Elennsar's, RPGsiters, and other associated fighter fappers of the world actually want is to, 1) come to the table without the ability to overcome challenges 2) overcome challenges anyway. Or in other words they want a free blowjob from the MC and it does the game a disservice to cater to them.

See, I think you are conflating two different groups that want to keep the fighter. One group wants to beat the odds in a game with an RNG, which is stupid beyond belief, but the other group is fine with redefining the fighter to expand its concept, while keeping the core of "melee warrior". Personally I lean towards just getting rid of the fighter, but I am not completely opposed to trying to salvage the fighter by expanding the concept.

Now, your original question was how to kill the fighter. I think the response you got shows how difficult that is. It might be better to try and redefine the fighter.

[Schleiermacher]

Definitely. People whose true agenda is "I want to actively avoid getting anything good, yet succeed anyway" are idiots and deserve nothing but scorn. But they are also rare. For me, the reason I would prefer to have the Fighter in the game in some sense is mostly one of aesthetics.

And by the way, this:

people expect the Fighter to be (...) Sword Guy - which freezes him out any of the noncombat mini-games

is the opposite of true, and part of the problem. I have never met anyone who wants or expects this. The fighter should absolutely have a slew of skills, and the divvying up of the "fighting man" pie into ever-finer slices labeled Ranger, Barbarian, Samurai, Knight and what-all is a big part of the cause of the conceptual obsolescence of the class actually labelled "fighter" in 3.0 and later D&D.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I think the response you got shows how difficult that is. It might be better to try and redefine the fighter.

I don't think that it's that difficult at all. 'Fighter' is a D&D and D&D-derived game specific trope. The class just plain doesn't exist in a D&D-recognizable form in any non-pastiche game that's that has phlebtonium more complicated than 1st-book Harry Potter and came out after the LotR movies. And as far as D&D-derived games like Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy goes, no one really gives a care when the archetype is blatantly left out of the game/unsupported. This indicates to me that the archetype could just flat-out not exist anymore in any game with phlebtonium and no one will really notice as long as people still have some sort of go-to melee archetype.

The only holdouts I see are grognards with an inflated sense of self-importance. That's fine and all -- no one on this board has a more inflated sense than moi -- but the stone cold truth is that everyone else but D&D fans have completely moved on. There's no indication that the people who love fighters are anything more than an entrenched minority with a bullhorn.

[Drolyt]

I think the response you got shows how difficult that is. It might be better to try and redefine the fighter.

I don't think that it's that difficult at all. 'Fighter' is a D&D and D&D-derived game specific trope. The class just plain doesn't exist in a D&D-recognizable form in any non-pastiche game that's that has phlebtonium more complicated than 1st-book Harry Potter and came out after the LotR movies. And as far as D&D-derived games like Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy goes, no one really gives a care when the archetype is blatantly left out of the game/unsupported. This indicates to me that the archetype could just flat-out not exist anymore in any game with phlebtonium and no one will really notice as long as people still have some sort of go-to melee archetype.

The only holdouts I see are grognards with an inflated sense of self-importance. That's fine and all -- no one on this board has a more inflated sense than moi -- but the stone cold truth is that everyone else but D&D fans have completely moved on. There's no indication that the people who love fighters are anything more than an entrenched minority with a bullhorn.

Granted, but the op says:

I thinks it's time we got down to brass tacks and recognized that the Fighter is not an appropriate D&D class. D&D is a fantasy game and there is no in-genre support for anything resembling a fighter class past level 4 and no precedent for anything resembling a level 11 or higher fighter in anything ever.

So how do we kill the idea that the Fighter belongs in D&D, because having a fighter class that actually works is impossible.

(emphasis mine)

I don't think anyone will complain if you don't have fighter in your own fantasy heartbreaker or whatever, but if we are talking about D&D or a D&D derived game like Pathfinder then you are going to have more of a problem.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Okay, but what you said was:

Now, your original question was how to kill the fighter. I think the response you got shows how difficult that is. It might be better to try and redefine the fighter.

And I'm saying that it's not that hard at all. Not least because the people who play D&D have also played other TTRPGs and other blatantly-derived D&D games that only have a 'Fighter' class as a curiousity; thus indicating that Fighter-love is only an attachment to an indirectly derived symbol, instead of what the symbol represents. Thus indicating that getting rid of the Fighter-class from D&D is actually pretty doable and easy once you stop cringing in fear of vocal grognards.

[NineInchNall]

The fighter should absolutely have a slew of skills, and the divvying up of the "fighting man" pie into ever-finer slices labeled Ranger, Barbarian, Samurai, Knight and what-all is a big part of the cause of the conceptual obsolescence of the class actually labelled "fighter" in 3.0 and later D&D.

Partially true. The other [Warrior] classes originally were supposed to be upgrades from the Fighter. Everyone rolled for stats, and classes had prereqs, of which the Fighter had the lowest. The Fighter was never intended to be as good as the other classes, and there is no problem with that. The problem is that people (including the ones who wrote 3e and later) flat forgot this little fact.

I do rather like your take on Fighter-lovers' preferences. They all want their characters to be Elothar and do "anime style bullshit" but have that happen in a way that isn't tied to character creation/advancement choices. Come to think of it, the problem might be conceptually related to the people who despise "builds" and planned progressions, constantly extolling the virtues and superiority of "organic" characters.

[sabs]

The other thing you're forgetting about 1st and 2nd edition with Fighters. People dual classed all the damn time.

People played Fighter/Thief, Fighter/Magic User, Fighter/Cleric as much if not more than anyone played straight up Fighter.

And in Red/Blue/Gold Box. You leveled to 20 as a fighter, and then you started back again at level 1 as a what ever.. hoping to make the prereques for playing an immortal.

[Wrathzog]

Now what the Wrathzogs, Elennsar's, RPGsiters, and other associated fighter fappers of the world actually want is to, 1) come to the table without the ability to overcome challenges 2) overcome challenges anyway.

While I would love to butt horns with you again after being so sorely misrepresented... but no, that'd be a lie. I'm super bored of this conversation after like... what... the fifth thread on more or less the same fucking thing every time?

So, it comes down to this: I'm throwing my vote in with the Tiers. Fighter can take levels 1-10 and then that guy graduates to Cyborg Ninja at 11-20 or something. While I consider it a Compromise, I also view it as the one solution that will anger the least number of people.

-e-
You can take it or leave it, but I'm more or less done.

[nockermensch]

stuff

Yes, more or less.

The only problem is that any high-level fighter in that paradigm basically becomes a Steve. (Or perhaps I mean an Elothar -not really sure about the distinction). This guy learns to control his inherited lycanthropy and becomes the champion of the moon goddess, while that guy masters the ancestral blade of the elves, which lets him summon the ghosts of champions past. Everyone's development is completely tied to the events of their campaign, is what I'm saying. And people will resist attempts to codify this, because while they think it's awesome to be a fighter (well, Ranger actually) who's mastered the ghost blade, they don't want to write "Ghost Blade" at the top of their character sheets. There aren't a bunch of Ghost Blades out there, after all -there's just the one.

Best new insight of this thread. Lets elaborate on it:

1) Some people don't actually get the "roleplay" part of RPGs, and insist on making every character's point of view identical to their own (or to a pop-culture version of one fictional character they favorConan's).

2) Therefore, they don't play mages or clerics because these character concepts involve fundamental changes of how they (or Conan) think about themselves and the world.

3) These guys, however, accept more readily campaign-level add-ons to their powers, if these are explained in the campaign's context and leave the character's point of view intact. Practically speaking, they need to gain abilities through in-game power-up events.

Cynically, this calls for a "Fighter" class that comes separated in two blocks: The one in the PHB is the plain useless Fighter. In the DMG, it comes the secret part, which is actually a collection of benchmarks and guidelines for the DM. "By levels 4-6 give the fighter a way to take out flying foes. By levels 5-8, a way to influence NPCs. By levels 11-15, a way to travel the planes and one reliable one-hit-kill attack. etc. etc. etc."

Even more cynically, you could probably have this player run a Sorcerer through your campaign without him even noticing if each spell gained came through a wise mentor appearing in-game and saying: "As a reward for your noble actions, I bestow you the power of <spell>". As long as the player is concerned, his character is a "Fighter", with a whole page of spell-like actions he "earned".

---

There's something probably even deeper than this at work here. I noticed now that this is how a lot of protagonists gain their powers in manga. A secondary character can "spend decades learning magic", but a lot of times the protagonist is a plain kid that one day has a weapon/talking pet/macguffin shoved on them. Then they get to learn how to be a hero, during the story time.

[Drolyt]

I think part of the problem is how xp works in D&D, you grow in power by killing orcs. Even if we accept that Hennet the Sorcerer can somehow gain more powerful magic by killing orcs (weird as that is) it is not at all clear how Bob the Fighter is supposed to start flying and tossing lightning bolts.

[CapnTthePirateG]

I can't be the only guy who likes to play a wizard because they earn their powers through hard work and study rather than getting bullshit handed to them for free because they're a half-dragon, right?

[Wiseman]

I think part of the problem is how xp works in D&D, you grow in power by killing orcs. Even if we accept that Hennet the Sorcerer can somehow gain more powerful magic by killing orcs (weird as that is) it is not at all clear how Bob the Fighter is supposed to start flying and tossing lightning bolts.

The same way Elothar get's all his stuff. Deus ex Machina or whatever.

Also, haven't we already decided that the XP system is bullshit?

I can't be the only guy who likes to play a wizard because they earn their powers through hard work and study rather than getting bullshit handed to them for free because they're a half-dragon, right?

Isn't that how cleric's and druids, and come to think of it paladins and really any divine caster get's their shit?

[Neurosis]

Oh this thread.

[NineInchNall]

No, Clerics, Paladins, and other divine casters get their shit by sucking off deities. In the core rules, you can get your divine power on without engaging in divine fellatio, but in settings like the Forgotten Realms, it is required. Divine casters don't get power from phlebotinum; they get it from semen.

Cynically, this calls for a "Fighter" class that comes separated in two blocks: The one in the PHB is the plain useless Fighter. In the DMG, it comes the secret part, which is actually a collection of benchmarks and guidelines for the DM. "By levels 4-6 give the fighter a way to take out flying foes. By levels 5-8, a way to influence NPCs. By levels 11-15, a way to travel the planes and one reliable one-hit-kill attack. etc. etc. etc."

This is just making the purpose of artifacts explicit. I mean, artifacts are unpriced and therefore not part of wealth by level, so they really are just free power. The rest just follows from that.

[Foxwarrior]

That's a perfect background story for the creation of Succubi, NineInchNall. They're all old Clerics who have been devoted for too long.

[Kaelik]

Fuck you Wiseman. I'm putting you on ignore for that sig.

[nockermensch]

Fuck you Wiseman. I'm putting you on ignore for that sig.

Mac master race here, laughing at white pointers.

[Drolyt]

Also, haven't we already decided that the XP system is bullshit?

Probably, but I'm wondering whether some people who have problems with fighters (and other nonspellcasters) having nice things only have that problem because of how they perceive character advancement.

[Mistborn]

These guys, however, accept more readily campaign-level add-ons to their powers, if these are explained in the campaign's context and leave the character's point of view intact. Practically speaking, they need to gain abilities through in-game power-up events.

...

Even more cynically, you could probably have this player run a Sorcerer through your campaign without him even noticing if each spell gained came through a wise mentor appearing in-game and saying: "As a reward for your noble actions, I bestow you the power of <spell>". As long as the player is concerned, his character is a "Fighter", with a whole page of spell-like actions he "earned".

So you admit that all the Fighter fappers want is a blowjob from the GM. Alright then. Your request is denied and you can go suck a barrel of cocks now.

There's something probably even deeper than this at work here. I noticed now that this is how a lot of protagonists gain their powers in manga. A secondary character can "spend decades learning magic", but a lot of times the protagonist is a plain kid that one day has a weapon/talking pet/macguffin shoved on them. Then they get to learn how to be a hero, during the story time.

Why are storygamers always fixated on such crappy stories?

[nockermensch]

So you admit that all the Fighter fappers want is a blowjob from the GM. Alright then. Your request is denied and you can go suck a barrel of cocks now.

You forgot the "warm mother-like". I'm sad now

[Mistborn]

So you admit that all the Fighter fappers want is a blowjob from the GM. Alright then. Your request is denied and you can go suck a barrel of cocks now.

You forgot the "warm mother-like". I'm sad now

>>wanting fellatio from a warm mother-like GM.

[Prak]

So you admit that all the Fighter fappers want is a blowjob from the GM. Alright then. Your request is denied and you can go suck a barrel of cocks now.

You forgot the "warm mother-like". I'm sad now

>>wanting fellatio from a warm mother-like GM.

This seems like a perfect time to tell you, Mistborn, that I cannot see your avi without thinking she's holding some kind of horrifying chain-onnahole.