Magic as a D&D Edition Setting

[Prak]

Honestly I think you will want to have multicoloured abilities at some point. Alpha may not have had any gold cards, but there were gold cards fairly early on. The idea with this is to create a game you can support ad nauseum, so it's not like having too much stuff to write is a bad thing. It really just means that you don't write them, or write them sparingly, in the basic rules, and leave them for your World books.

There is the, business administrative, question of whether the RPG should have something like the periodic Core Set. I think it'd be a good idea. It keeps the basic rules fresh, and rotates things around a bit.

[Username17]

Honestly I think you will want to have multicoloured abilities at some point. Alpha may not have had any gold cards, but there were gold cards fairly early on. The idea with this is to create a game you can support ad nauseum, so it's not like having too much stuff to write is a bad thing. It really just means that you don't write them, or write them sparingly, in the basic rules, and leave them for your World books.

There is the, business administrative, question of whether the RPG should have something like the periodic Core Set. I think it'd be a good idea. It keeps the basic rules fresh, and rotates things around a bit.

I can see where you're coming from, but you're wrong. Terribly, terribly wrong.

Look, 4e had a feat called "Eladrin Sword Wizardry" which was exclusively available for Eladrin Wizards who had Wand of Accuracy and a Magic Sword. It had another feat called "Fey Preserver", which was exclusively available to Eladrin Invokers who had Covenant of Preservation. That didn't work. That kind of design does not and can not work.

It seems harmless. You're writing more stuff. Everyone likes more stuff, right? Wrong. The reality is that it is very easy for game mechanics to become too verbose. The amount of words that an average gamer is willing to read in 2013 is very much higher than it was for the comparatively illiterate gamers of 1973, but it is by no means unlimited. Every piece of material you ever write is straw being thrown on a camel. Every chapter and verse you write comes at the expense of another you didn't write instead, but also every piece the player reads comes at the expense of another piece they didn't.

There are limits, real fucking limits on how much material you can or even should produce. And writing up double-color abilities is really obviously a shitty use of limited resources (both in terms of writing and in terms of player attention spans). Instead of producing dual colored abilities for five base classes, you could add an entire base class with an associated class for all five colors. Is having the option of a single Blue/Red ability pop up on your list of abilities to select from when you gain a level of Cleric and happen to be Blue and Red really worth cutting the Artificers (and associated Pain Smiths and shit) or Scouts (and associated Rangers and such)? Because that's the fucking choice.

And the more base classes you add, the worse that choice becomes. Adding trivial bullshit amounts of multicolored abilities for five base classes is like 30,000 words, but by the time you're adding it for all 13 major base classes, you're talking about an entire fucking book the length of Dogs of War or Mysterious Places. And not to put too fine a point on it: we're talking about an entire book filled with nothing but powers for dual-colored characters, and your dual-colored character is only going to qualify for one of them. In the whole fucking book. No one is going to want to read through that shit, because the ratio of usable to non-usable material is horrendously terrible.

The 4e style of content generation is not something that any sane person should want to emulate.

-Username17

[Foxwarrior]

Is having the option of a single Blue/Red ability pop up on your list of abilities to select from when you gain a level of Cleric and happen to be Blue and Red really worth cutting the Artificers (and associated Pain Smiths and shit) or Scouts (and associated Rangers and such)?

Yes. Multicolor abilities in Magic are more important than classes.

[Almaz]

Multicolor is more efficiently effected by having the ability to recombine different colors of abilities. Having multicolor abilities is irrelevant. Someone will fan-write them for your system (lol, fan material for a fan system - but it happens) if they care. And it's irrelevant because FEELING multicolor does not require having abilities that literally say RGB.

[Username17]

Is having the option of a single Blue/Red ability pop up on your list of abilities to select from when you gain a level of Cleric and happen to be Blue and Red really worth cutting the Artificers (and associated Pain Smiths and shit) or Scouts (and associated Rangers and such)?

Yes. Multicolor abilities in Magic are more important than classes.

That's stupid beyond belief. There are a total of 5 Green/Red Auras. Only two if you don't count auras that have three or more colors. And both of them could and arguably should be modeled as the use of more than one power (the "Primal Vistitation" card sounds an awful lot like simply activating your Green "Growth" effect and your Red "Haste" effect at the same time, and "Runes of the Deus is just a red speed effect or a green trample effect). There aren't enough Green/Red Auras in the entire history of Magic to even put a name on a Green/Red Knight ability for each level. Meanwhile, there are no shit 30 Green Scouts. Not 30 Scouts total, just 30 Scouts who are Green.

Cutting the Scout cuts the Ranger (Scout, Green) and the Explorer (Scout, Blue), as well as the scouts of Black, Red, and White (who totally exist, but don't have clear names, though Adventurer, Vanguard, and Outrider are all likely). Cutting dual color abilities cuts zero functionality, and eight Green/Red Knight abilities you made up for this exercise because cards representing this sort of thing do not exist.

Yes, Gerard of the Open Fist is totally a dude. He's a Red/Green Knight. He exists. You can play him. But you can play him by taking a mixture of Red and Green abilities, because there are aren't enough Red/Green ability cards to reference.

-Username17

[Prak]

That's nice, Frank. But there are 323 Red/Green non-creatures. If 30 green scouts is enough for us to care about, then 323 spells is enough for us to care about.

Even if the only difference between Primal Visitation and Oakenform+Mark of Fury]Mark of Fury is action economy and cost--ie, it's one action, but costs 1 more colourless, Primal Visitation should be an option. I don't particularly care if it's an option because the rules have an ability called "Primal Visitation," or there's a rule about combining spells into one action at increased cost, but the option should be there.

How about a better example? Soul Ransom is a Blue Black aura which takes control of a creature, but can be removed if someone other than the new controller discards cards. It costs 2UB
Mind Control is a Blue aura which takes control of a creature. It costs 3UU.

These are distinct. In the RPG, the difference would be that if you use Soul Ransom, one of the controlled characters' allies can break the enchantment by voluntarily taking Int damage or burning spell slots. Because Soul Ransom is "easily" dispelled, it's 1 colourless cheaper.

You could compare Soul Ransom to the old Control Magic, same thing as Mind Control, but it's 2UU. Same CMC, but there is still a purpose to Soul Ransom--namely the fact that a UB character can learn Soul Ransom sooner than Control Magic.

That is the point of Gold spells, they are similar to, but distinct from what either colour could do alone.

[Red_Rob]

I understand wanting 'Gold' effects Prak, I really do. They're one of Magic's most popular themes because they're splashy and exciting. But they aren't going to work with the current setup of each class having it's own unique ability list.

If you wanted to have Multicolour effects you'd need to have one master power list for each colour that every class of that colour drew from - which necessitates a 4e style everyone-on-the-same-resource-schedule model, with all the blandness and lack of character distinction that entails. If every Red-Green character was drawing from the same list it would be worth writing powers for that subset. But writing a seperate power list for Red-Green Knights, Shaman, Rogues, Wizards and Clerics? That is just not going to fly.

Now, looking at Mark Rosewater's article on multicolour cards we can see that it can be pretty easy to get the 'feel' of multicolour abilities without requiring that you actually sit down and write any. For example, if a class allowed you to add 'rider' effects to powers (similar to how D&D characters get a Swift action and a Standard action) you could use your main attack as a Red power and use a Green rider and get the feel of having used a Red/Green power. You could also have an ongoing Red power active at the same time as an ongoing Green power and get the feel of a Red/Green aura.

The WWRR Rogue can select 2RR or 2WW abilities, but not RRRR abilities; while the RRRR Rogue can select 2RR or RRRR abilities but not 2WW abilities. There's no power/versatility tradeoff, because as long as the lists are the same size, the R/B Rogue has the same number of level appropriate abilities available to choose from as the mono-Black Rogue does.

Oh, I get that. What I meant to ask was what should be the difference between a RRRR and a 2RR ability?. Are some 'schticks' reserved for RRRR, and only available to 2RR at higher levels? Is a RRRR ability like a stronger version of a 2RR ability? Does the RRRR ability have less restrictions, or more options? Each of these seem to have some worrying implications for balance between multi and mono coloured creatures.

[Username17]

That's nice, Frank. But there are 323 Red/Green non-creatures.

No. There really aren't. There are 46. 45 if you don't count "Ach Hans Run!" from Unhinged. Gatherer lists 48 because it gives two entries for Pure & Simple and Hit & Run even though only one half of those combinations are actually Red/Green. I really have no idea how you got to 323. Note however, that 45 or even 48 is still not enough to actually make a single ability out of each level.

If 30 green scouts is enough for us to care about, then 323 spells is enough for us to care about.

No. Non-character cards are fundamentally lesser in the RPG than character cards are. You can make a character out of one creature. But an instant or an enchantment is just a single ability that one character can use. When you plop down something like the Feral Animist, that is a complete character who presumably has all kinds of abilities like animal control and rage channeling. But Firespout is just a single spell that a single Shaman might have. The Feral Animist by itself is enough to justify people being able to play Green/Red Shamans. But Firespout would have to come with nine friends just to put a single entry in each Green/Red Shaman level on the Shaman spell list.

And don't forget: a single entry on each level in the spell list is not enough to actually make a character. Our Feral Animist is still going to have to come to the party with almost all of their spells being from the mono-Red or mono-Green list. After you've tracked down nine more Shaman powers for the Red/Green list to give it minimal coverage (necessarily making a bunch up, because as previously noted, these cards do not exist), that still has almost no impact on what Green/Red Shamans actually do or what flavor they have.

So yes, there are two and only two Red/Green Knights in the whole game (Jerrard of the Closed Fist and Boartusk Liege). And that's plenty and more than plenty to justify there being Red/Green Knight support, because those are complete characters and the game can and should write as many skills, abilities, and equipment selections as necessary to bring those characters to life. And there are 12 Red/Green Instants, and that's not enough or nearly enough to actually fill up a character ability list.

And there's no point in even going down that road. Characters can simulate Colossal Might as a Red/Green character by using a Green Growth Effect and a Red Strength effect. There is no purpose whatsoever to be served by worrying about writing up an obscure combo ability for characters with a specific base class at a specific character level with a specific color combination because the functional effects of the ability are emergently available in the system before you even write it.

What I meant to ask was what should be the difference between a RRRR and a 2RR ability?. Are some 'schticks' reserved for RRRR, and only available to 2RR at higher levels? Is a RRRR ability like a stronger version of a 2RR ability? Does the RRRR ability have less restrictions, or more options? Each of these seem to have some worrying implications for balance between multi and mono coloured creatures.

For the Rogue ability selection mechanic, the total number of level appropriate abilities for the RW Rogue and the RR rogue would be the same. You could actually basically hand out the abilities into the two categories at random.

Now from my perspective, Fear and Invisibility effects should probably be in the mono-color pile, just because the original spells that granted those abilities required only colored mana. But that's an aesthetic choice. Similarly, Extortion abilities should probably show up on the half-colored sublist, because a lot of multicolored or multi-color friendly Rogues seem to do stuff like that.

-Username17

[zugschef]

Shaman Has two ability pools (elements and spirits), both types are made available by winds of fate

What?

Last I checked, the proposed Shaman was just a guy who had a mana pool that refreshed every turn and the ability to save a couple of mana from the previous turn if he didn't use it all. So you have the option of alternating between smaller powers and bigger zaps and you have the option of just juicing out a medium strength ability every turn. Shamans in Magic don't all talk to spirits, they just channel power. It's a lot like the D&D Sorcerer conceptually.

i see. so in order to restrict him from using his biggest power twice (or more) in a row you give him the option of building up more fuel.

btw: i totally agree with your reasoning on multicolored abilities.

hm... would you start characters with a single G or R and let them multiclass after picking up a level or would you start characters with GG, RR or RG from the beginning?

[Prak]

I'm not sure how I got 323 either, because now I can't replicate it.

Fine, so sheer numbers is insufficient to convince you this hypothetical thing should be fully based on the source material. Would you care to address my second point, about distinct spells which aren't just combinations?

[Whatever]

There are 473 non-creature gold cards (fewer if you exclude stuff from Unglued/Unhinged). From a quick look over the list, most of them do two things, with one effect from each ability. Counter a spell plus gain life. Flying and haste. And so on. Some have a single ability that's in flavor for both colors. But vanishingly few have a single ability that's only appropriate for the color combination.

If necessary, your sample spell could be modeled with a blue Control Magic effect and a black "cheaper spells but your opponents can pay (cost) to neutralize them" effect (which would be a pretty questionable mechanic to write, however).

In general, you'll get a ton more mileage out of abilities that naturally lend themselves to combination effects, instead of writing the combination effects themselves ("Whenever you target an ally, they also gain +1/+1" lets players make their own Green/X effects, by the dozens).

[Username17]

I'm not sure how I got 323 either, because now I can't replicate it.

Fine, so sheer numbers is insufficient to convince you this hypothetical thing should be fully based on the source material. Would you care to address my second point, about distinct spells which aren't just combinations?

You don't have a point. The source material does not support there being enough multicolored spells to even write a spell list. Not that there aren't enough once you discard all the ones you can simply and emergently create by mixing mono-color abilities, there aren't enough period.

There aren't fifty spell names you could use for any color combination. And that's the absolute minimum to have even a bullshit coverage rate of one ability per level for each of the starting base classes. Over and above the fact that there is very obviously no need for such a thing, there just isn't enough source material for it to even exist.

It's fine for Invasion to come with just eight non-creature Black/Blue cards, because each card goes into a deck in a stand alone fashion. it can be combined with cards from other sets. But when you're talking about an RPG character, that's bullshit. They need to be able to continue going up in power without having to become Kamigawan or change allegiance from Dominarian to Phyrexian or vice versa.

I mean, we can puzzle about whether Vile Consumption makes sense as a PC ability at all, or whether we need a unique power named Vile Consumption for a Black/Blue Shaman who wants to cause a lot of devastation with pestilence. But it just doesn't fucking matter, because enough powers to outfit our hypothetical Black/Blue Shaman with gold powers don't even exist.

There are so few of these things that the most you could ever do is offer a gold ability at level ten as a "capstone" for characters who have two colors. But even that is pushing it, because you're going to be running dangerously low on those power names by the time you start adding in expansion base classes and monsters. I mean, yeah the Paladin/Dragoon can get Martial Glory and the Priest/Heretic gets Lightning Helix, but it starts getting more difficult with more Red/White classes to worry about. The Red/White Soldier gets Master Warcraft, the Red/White Archer gets Arrows of Justice, the Red/White Shaman gets Intimidation Bolt, and the Red/White Rogue, Monk, and Artificer get... what? We're kind of running low here.

There are only 34 Red/White non-creature cards in any set. Many of them are reasonably specific to one of the worlds and thus presumably off limits to characters from other worlds (ex: Boros Charm), and others represent places rather than creature abilities at all (ex: Goblin Trenches). To add insult to injury, many of them can't be effectively split off to act as capstones for multiple classes because they are simply upgraded versions of each other. The Warleader's Helix is simply a bigger Lightning Helix.

So stop whining like a little bitch: put up or shut up. What White/Red abilities would you even have such that they could be inserted even as a meaningless capstone to every playable Red/White character?

-Username17

[Mistborn]

If I may cut in, why are we hung up on giving every class a specific ability list? With 5 colors and 5 class groups that's already bloated as fuck. If you have powers that every class can access than making some them multicolor is a lot more feasible.

[Username17]

If I may cut in, why are we hung up on giving every class a specific ability list? With 5 colors and 5 class groups that's already bloated as fuck. If you have powers that every class can access than making some them multicolor is a lot more feasible.

Because making these two guys feel different:


...is more important than making sure there is space for them to cast Cerebral Vortex. Because frankly, neither character looks especially ready to cast Cerebral Vortex. They aren't even fucking Wizards.

Remember, the player characters are characters and not decks. So tricky deck manipulation bullshit is not important if the cost is a lack of differentiation between characters. You play a Knight, not a hand of cards. Being a "Knight" has to fucking matter, while deck management reliability really fucking doesn't.

-Username17

[Foxwarrior]

Okay, upon further reflection, yes, multicolored cards seldom have their colors so inextricably linked that they couldn't be extricated in this more detailed system. For the cases where a multicolored version of a card would be interesting and special though, you should really be willing to put it in somehow, whether that's simply by writing it, or by giving a similar spell a Kicker option.


Now, shared ability lists. It is in fact possible to share ability lists without sharing resource management systems; you just have to have some method for adjusting the price depending on what resource management system you're using, whether that's a separate cost for each class, or tags which the different classes interact with.

It's totally possible to do things like having Shamans concentrate on duration spells and Wizards fire-and-forget but pay more, or many other interesting mechanisms, some of which could even be balanced.

[Omegonthesane]

Now, shared ability lists. It is in fact possible to share ability lists without sharing resource management systems; you just have to have some method for adjusting the price depending on what resource management system you're using, whether that's a separate cost for each class, or tags which the different classes interact with.

I'm going to violate tradition and be charitable here - that goal seems needlessly ambitious. However there is indeed room for powers to be duplicated on lists that service different resource management systems, in theory.

[zugschef]

Now, shared ability lists. It is in fact possible to share ability lists without sharing resource management systems; you just have to have some method for adjusting the price depending on what resource management system you're using, whether that's a separate cost for each class, or tags which the different classes interact with.

I'm going to violate tradition and be charitable here - that goal seems needlessly ambitious. However there is indeed room for powers to be duplicated on lists that service different resource management systems, in theory.

Well, you (obviously) can't simply duplicate powers in different class lists, when classes have fundamentally different resource management systems. The descriptions have to be different, since a point-based class needs different information than a vancian class, for instance. But you should definitely make specific effects available for different classes, via including a corresponding ability in their respective pool of options.

[RadiantPhoenix]

So, I'm thinking that gold multicolor abilities should be included on an individual basis when they are iconic. e.g., the guild charms of Ravnica would show up in the Ravnica book(s), and the shard charms of Alara would show up in the Alara book(s).

Hybrid multicolor abilities are another story, and should be in the base game.

Hybrid multicolor abilities are effectively on both colors' lists and, in the case of classes that get mana, can be activated by either color of mana.

[Red_Rob]

One place multicolor abilities could work is with non-combat powers. I'm assuming that although a Berserker and a Shaman have different resource systems for their abilities useable in a fight, when it comes to their out of combat abilities these differences are going to pretty much melt away. Therefore, whilst each class would have a unique list of abilities tailored to that class, a 4e-style list of 'rituals' that any class could take might be workable.

[Whatever]

Especially if rituals could be cast by two or more characters.

[Foxwarrior]

That's an excellent example of a reason for giving different classes separate ability lists, Red Rob.

Resource management and tag interaction schemes can make two people with the same powers play very differently in combat. However, outside of combat, making a spell twice as awkward to use in the way you want seldom matters in the slightest.

And if a Berserker and a Shaman play the same outside of combat, the game is less cool.

[Wrathzog]

So, this would function similarly to the Mage magic system, replacing the Arcanas with the Color Pie?

[zugschef]

One place multicolor abilities could work is with non-combat powers. I'm assuming that although a Berserker and a Shaman have different resource systems for their abilities useable in a fight, when it comes to their out of combat abilities these differences are going to pretty much melt away. Therefore, whilst each class would have a unique list of abilities tailored to that class, a 4e-style list of 'rituals' that any class could take might be workable.

That's an excellent example of a reason for giving different classes separate ability lists, Red Rob.

Resource management and tag interaction schemes can make two people with the same powers play very differently in combat. However, outside of combat, making a spell twice as awkward to use in the way you want seldom matters in the slightest.

And if a Berserker and a Shaman play the same outside of combat, the game is less cool.

Well, the point is that you could do it without producing content only useable for 1% of the players. But as you've pointed out, this would mean that classes become totally interchangeable out of combat, however. That's Diablo. That's WoW. And thus totally sucks for a TTRPG.

That's because your character's career choice absolutely must have an impact on his actions and abilities out of combat, otherwise your character becomes completely implausible.

I'd say that, again, the way to go is via multi-colored characters: A red shaman who decides to pick up some green combat moves, now also has the choice to use out of combat abilities from both colors (or choose from, depending on how you want to design the out of combat ability system), as long as they don't require too much single mana.

[edit] hm... of course you could have some multi-colored rituals available to everybody on top of that system. but that's probably not worth the effort since it would require a party to have exactly these colors. sure, a party of black and blue characters comes up way more often than a black and blue assassin, but it still is a limiting factor on the number of parties which can actually use them.

[Red_Rob]

I've been looking at elemental damage in an MTG:RPG. Would it be better to go with just the colours as the types of damage, or do you want to split it according to something more physical like in 3e? Should a Flame sword and a Lightning Bolt both do Red damage or should you be able to get Fire Resist and Lightning Resist separately?

Obviously the colour based system would be more straightforward, but I could see times when you'd want something to be immune/resistant to Fire but not Lightning or Cold damage but not Psychic damage for example. Also, if you go for the colour based damage, should a Red creature do Red damage with it's natural attacks, or only when manifesting Red magic in some way? What about if it uses a weapon? If we treat coloured damage like elemental damage in 3e (i.e. for special attacks only), then Green damage won't occur very often at all.

[Wrathzog]

No reason that you couldn't have both. Similar to 4E where powers had a key word for their Power Source and any individual elements associated with the power.

Protections haven't been limited to just the colors for a while now anyways so whether you have Pro: Red or Pro: Fire, you're protected from Fireball.