SR4(possibly 3e) chargen and GM advice

[OgreBattle]

A friend of mine will be running 4th edition SR for the first time (*OK, he might just do 3e if he doesn't grasp the rules). He played SR3 before, though he won't have any magic and probably won't have hacking, so it's more a stealth/thriller/action game with cyborged dudes.

What are the guidelines to playing SR4, things to avoid and game quirks to look out for. Like I've heard about the "double tap" trend of everyone going down in two shots, or how Edge 3 is all you need.


For a character concept I want a cybered stealthy agile dude that fights with heavy pistols. Like Frank Yaeger (Grey Fox, Null, Cyborg Ninja) in Metal Gear.

The details of how many points are allowed haven't been given yet, but I'd like to know the guidelines and what to expect of the system.

[Whipstitch]

From a pure optimization standpoint, I'm not a big fan of heavy pistols; they punch through drone armor a bit easier than other pistols, but against actual people or spirits you're often better off with stick and shock and something more concealable--like hold outs--or a weapon with more firing modes so you can hose down their defense pool to nothing. Honestly, I usually just get my agility somewhere in the 7-9 range, grab the Heavy Weapons or Automatics skill and then when I need to punk some poor dumb mook in an ambush I just default with a Morrisey Elan loaded with stick 'n' shock.

With that said, if you don't care about subtlety using two Ex-Ex loaded Ruger Warhawks and firing each once per pass is kinda fun, and a 7P 3AP damage code is good enough to damage a corebook unmodified steel lynx, squad car or armored limo on a single net hit. It's still not a great plan by any means, but if you're really that sick of the Ares & Ingram weapons it's an option that at least hurts stuff pretty good.

[Korwin]

A friend of mine will be running 4th edition SR for the first time. He played SR3 before, though he won't have any magic and probably won't have hacking, so it's more a stealth/thriller/action game with cyborged dudes.

You will want Agi for offensive use, Rea for defensive use, Int for perception, Kon limits how much Armor you can wear.

Agi and Int doubles for sneaking uses.

You want to use the maximum amount of money on cyber-, bio- and genware.
If you can get (are allowed to take) it, you want genetic heritage to get an (money-) free bioware augmentation.

[Whipstitch]

If you can get (are allowed to take) it, you want genetic heritage to get an (money-) free bioware augmentation.

Or don't, because it's broken bullshit that depends on a rather demented interpretation of the Animal Features rules.

[Korgan0]

Intuition is money as hell since not only does it give you bonuses to initiative (vital with damage levels being as high as they are) but it gives you bonuses to perception, which, given the nature of the game, is an incredibly useful skill.

Radar Sensors are pretty dang useful, don't splurge on milspec since a lined coat+ PPP + FFBA gives you a similar level of protection with perfect legality and for a tiny fraction of the cost.

Ocular Drones (one of your cybereyes pops out and functions as a drone) aren't very useful but they are really cool. Hell, you can get most of what you get in cybereyes from straight-up goggles or whatever.

[OgreBattle]

How about for 3e? We may play that instead.

What's the main difference between the two gameplay wise?

[Korwin]

If you can get (are allowed to take) it, you want genetic heritage to get an (money-) free bioware augmentation.

Or don't, because it's broken bullshit that depends on a rather demented interpretation of the Animal Features rules.

While I agree on the broken part, the rules reads pretty solid for me.
May be an translation error (only have the german ones).

[Whipstitch]

It reads pretty solid, sure, as long as you ignore that it is way stupid and the whole thing is in the greater context of buying a service that otherwise lets you grow a purely cosmetic mane so you can feel true to your fursona. I mean, yeah, strictly speaking it works but actually bringing a sheet that uses the trick to the table is basically saying "Aha! You guys had two writers who didn't consult. 10 bp Synaptic 3 for everyone, no take backsies!". I mean, I'm the guy who routinely makes custom Intuition traditions with ridiculous spirit loadouts and even I roll my eyes at that crap.

[sabs]

The 4th Edition skill resolution system is actually pretty good.
And without having to keep up with the Joneses (the mages) cyber characters can be really a lot of fun.

Augmentation has some cool stuff.. but there is obnoxious cheese in there.
I like to mix my bioware and cyberware so I can take advantage of the 1/2 price mods

[Username17]

I know I didn't write the stupid gene modification rules, and that they are way more fucking complicated than they have any right to be, but what exactly are you guys talking about?

-Username17

[Whipstitch]

Well, see, there's this gene mod, right?

Animal Features: Animal features can include any phenotyp-
ic modification drawn from normal animal lifeforms. These might
include shaggy lion manes, rabbit’s ears, quills instead of hair, tails,
claws, and other animal characteristics. Note that such physical al-
terations do not automatically imbue the subject with animal-like
senses or abilities, remaining primarily cosmetic. Full functional-
ity requires much more profound metabolic alterations. Most of
the functional changes available through biotech (p. 61) are also
possible through transgenic alteration for comparable Essence and
nuyen costs but longer treatment times (typically several months).

And then you have this quality here:

Genetic Heritage
Cost: 10 BP
Though genetweaking isn’t yet widespread, the technology to
successfully modify a metahuman genome has been around for well
over three decades. It is thus possible that children have inherited
genetically-modified genes from one or both progenitors. Such an
inheritance means the character can start play with one genetic
modification (see p. 72) for free. Such characters also possess an
unusually high tolerance to the introduction of foreign code into
their genome. As a result, the nuyen costs of transgenic genetic
enhancements for the character are reduced by 20 percent.

So, yeah, you end up with people saying "I'm taking Synaptic Booster 3 as my gene mod. Some animals have multiple passes so it's legit. #trollface." The notion skullfucks the bp cap so severely that people rarely bother talking about it given it's so self-evidently not going to happen in your games. Personally, given that the page links involved seriously just go to the first page of the Biotech and Genetech chapters, I'm actually rather fond of the "They didn't actually specify anything at all, so fuck off" interpretation of the rule, but I usually don't bother arguing that way given that it's easier to argue that the idea is too stupid to live in any case.

[Username17]

Ah. So it's the "the rules don't say I can't summon red dragons with my sword swings" interpretation of the rules. Got it.

-Username17

[Whipstitch]

Yep. Like I said, it's a helluva lot easier to just say "I double dog dare you to say this is a great idea with a straight face."

[OgreBattle]

So what kind of weapons and armor is recommended?

400BP start, human.
getting wired reflexes, muscle toner.

How about those qualities?


and for close combat... is it worth it to go unarmed over blades? I've been playing MGS3 so I want to CQC flip people to the ground, but I also can just hit people with an ax, hmmm

[Username17]

So what kind of weapons and armor is recommended?

That... depends.

To a first approximation, bigger guns are better. Battle Rifles are "bigger" for the purposes of everything except penetrating hardened armor than any other weapon you could reasonably get your hands on. Of course, those are in War!, which is a book you probably don't own because it has a suggested adventure of running through Auschwitz fighting Jewish ghosts so that you can take their treasure (a magic Nazi torture implement) and then turn around and sell it for ass wipe money. That isn't actually a joke or an exaggeration.

If you intend to be fighting lots of beefy spirits, which are the only time large hardened armor values will come up (as the vehicle rules are unusable), then you should consider the Sniper Rifle, because it is bigger for that purpose. If you can't use War! and you don't intend to be doing a lot of Djinn fighting, then you can make do with an Assault Rifle.

However, there is a floating detente value that varies from GM to GM. Which is namely that players carrying different ordinance will provoke different security responses from different MCs. Basically, you want to use the biggest weapon that won't make the security forces flip out and bump you up to 3 or 4 GTA-style "stars". And the guidelines for that are unclear and interpreted differently by different MCs. So you may have to cut down to a sub machine gun or even a heavy pistol.

It's actually not much of a deal. The two shot problem is severe enough that in most cases, if you need to cut down to holdouts, then you can in fact get ambidexterity, put a palm pistol in each hand, and still drop fools in one initiative pass. The difference between an assault rifle burst and a holdout pistol shot is 4 wound boxes, but enemies have 10-12 of those things, so it's actually not much different.

and for close combat... is it worth it to go unarmed over blades? I've been playing MGS3 so I want to CQC flip people to the ground, but I also can just hit people with an ax, hmmm

Close quarters combat is generally better with pistols, sorry to say. Fuck, you're better off shooting a rifle in close quarters combat than actually swinging a blade of some kind. Close Quarters Combat skills are there to provide extra defense against being bitten by dogs. As such, unarmed or clubs are basically the best skills, since you will be more likely to have those things on hand when you are suddenly being mauled by a bear.

-Username17

[Stahlseele]

And you can do more crazy stuff with unarmed and SR4 Martial Arts than you can do with melee weapons . .

[OgreBattle]

The GM is still getting the hang of 4E, our game is pretty full of MTP, with rolling initiative to see who talks first in the bar.


As long as I've got buckets of dice rolling I'll be good.

[Whipstitch]

And you can do more crazy stuff with unarmed and SR4 Martial Arts than you can do with melee weapons . .

Stahl, y u no learn SR4?

The SR4 martial arts rules doesn't actually provide anything particularly exciting to Unarmed combatants that Blade or Club guys don't get--basically, you get some more dice to judo people with when using the defensive Throw maneuver as an Unarmed guy, and that's about it. Meanwhile the weapon wielding guys get Two Weapon Style and a defensive Disarm maneuver. So, in some hypothetical world where melee matters, a guy trained in Arnis who wields a couple of vibro blades or shock sticks would actually be pretty shit hot. That's because he could attack without ceding Full Defense and in the event that you miss him he can Disarm you while also dealing a decent amount of damage. It's just that nobody bothers to do this because it's fraggin' Shadowrun and so the correct answer is saving your build points and shooting people twice in the face.