Arguments in favor of magic item wishlists.

[Kaelik]

I think the problem is that shadazar is living in a time warp. He probably played literally the first ever Zelda game, hence his bitching about pixels. Because obviously nobody can even see the Pixels in modern GBA games or Ocarina of time.

[MfA]

who or what says leveling is rare? have you ever played D&D? everybody has a fucking level! for those that don't they are classless levels that are already at their max level: commoner, merchant, noble. everyone else has a level.

Leveling, ie. the act of acquiring a level, is rare. Even if you want to give some crafting XP at first level that would be fine, the crafting XP you would get would be limited and can nicely explain the multitude of health potions everywhere.

[Wiseman]

Back on the issue at hand, I can with honest experience tell you how much I hate random loot. I play DDO and every single treasure chest has random loot. Sometimes it's guarded by enemies, where it makes no sense for them not to be using the stuff. And almost everything you find is going to be vendor trash. Even in big quests. For example, one of the end game raids is infiltrating a devil tower on Shavarath. You're fighting our way up the tower, kicking the asses of pit fiends, and taking loot. Every single item of loot I got from that I ended up selling.

On another note, Why are wishlists even an issue in the first place? There's no need for it to be a mechanic. The ideal way to do it is for the player to show up to the campaign, and tell the DM what they think would be fun to happen in the game. The DM considers this, and decides yes or no. That's it, no need for some sort of mechanic, it's entirely meta.

[CatharzGodfoot]

On another note, Why are wishlists even an issue in the first place? There's no need for it to be a mechanic. The ideal way to do it is for the player to show up to the campaign, and tell the DM what they think would be fun to happen in the game. The DM considers this, and decides yes or no. That's it, no need for some sort of mechanic, it's entirely meta.

You could just as easily say 'Why are skill checks even an issue in the first place? There's no need for it to be a mechanic. The ideal way to do it is for the player to show up to the campaign, and tell the DM what they think would be fun to happen in the game. The DM considers this, and decides yes or no. That's it, no need for some sort of mechanic, it's entirely meta.'.

Some people prefer the cooperative storytelling aspect, and for them there's no reason to have mechanics. Other people enjoy playing a game or competitive or adversarial story telling, and for them there is sometimes a need for mechanics--whether those mechanics are for cutting people, using magic, diplomacy, or even placing stuff in chests.

One thing I will say is that the classical dungeon crawl conceit of 'put loot in places' is really dumb, and D&D benefits from 'people having stuff for a reason' rather than 'placing loot'.

[Username17]

You're positing a fairly narrow needle to thread, because you have design goals that conflict in rather fundamental ways.

• If magic items are rare, it strains believability that you can get specifically the ones you want.

Leveling is rare (from a world perspective). Just give characters an item experience budget each level they can use to have crafters make their magic items.

It's a bit meta, but shouldn't be too hard to fluff for people who aren't just being contrary.

Well I don't think that it at all strains believability that you get what you want when you craft things. No matter how few things can be crafted. Crafting of course has its own problems, but it does exist as a quite solid answer to the question of "If there's only one of these things, how come it comes in the color I wanted?" Obviously, if you make it, you get to choose the color.

But the market doesn't explain that. If there's only one version for sale, you can't expect to be choosy about parameters. Questing doesn't explain that. If there's only one artifact in the kingdom, it doesn't make much sense to ask if it comes in red. And finding things in "random" DM pity piles stretches believability to the breaking point. We just stabbed a fire breathing turtleduck and it happened to have one of the two magic weapons we've ever seen, and this one happened to be a slightly better version of the thing I already had? Wat?

You'll note that even PhoneLobster, while he was taking a modest breath in between insulting me for never ceasing to advocate for positions that are not and never have been mine, went ahead and described his item system. And you'll note that he didn't give people carte blanche to purchase anything they wanted. Also, he didn't even try to fit in "items are rare and special" anywhere, because that would be clearly and obviously incompatible with his ideas about players having a continuous river of expendable equipment.

---

Catharz totally ninjaed me on telling Wiseman how much of an idiot he is. But still, it seems reasonable to butt in and give some additional restatements:

• Why are to-hit rolls even an issue in the first place? There's no need for it to be a mechanic. The ideal way to do it is for the player to show up to the campaign, and tell the DM what they think would be fun to happen in the game. The DM considers this, and decides yes or no. That's it, no need for some sort of mechanic, it's entirely meta.
• Why are saving thows even an issue in the first place? There's no need for it to be a mechanic. The ideal way to do it is for the player to show up to the campaign, and tell the DM what they think would be fun to happen in the game. The DM considers this, and decides yes or no. That's it, no need for some sort of mechanic, it's entirely meta.
• Why are Hit Points even an issue in the first place? There's no need for it to be a mechanic. The ideal way to do it is for the player to show up to the campaign, and tell the DM what they think would be fun to happen in the game. The DM considers this, and decides yes or no. That's it, no need for some sort of mechanic, it's entirely meta.

-Username17

[Drolyt]

On another note, Why are wishlists even an issue in the first place? There's no need for it to be a mechanic. The ideal way to do it is for the player to show up to the campaign, and tell the DM what they think would be fun to happen in the game. The DM considers this, and decides yes or no. That's it, no need for some sort of mechanic, it's entirely meta.

I know that others have already dealt with this, but seriously, have you been reading this thread at all? What you just described is what people are objecting to. We are looking for mechanical solutions because what you just described doesn't work.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

But the market doesn't explain that. If there's only one version for sale, you can't expect to be choosy about parameters. Questing doesn't explain that. If there's only one artifact in the kingdom, it doesn't make much sense to ask if it comes in red. And finding things in "random" DM pity piles stretches believability to the breaking point. We just stabbed a fire breathing turtleduck and it happened to have one of the two magic weapons we've ever seen, and this one happened to be a slightly better version of the thing I already had? Wat?

Wait...

Okay, so how the PC got the item aside, now you're getting picky about purely cosmetic aspects of the magic items? As in, you are declaring that the wizard's new Robe of the Archmage can't be green because you already decided it was blue?

That is unbelievably petty.

[LR]

Wait...

Okay, so how the PC got the item aside, now you're getting picky about purely cosmetic aspects of the magic items? As in, you are declaring that the wizard's new Robe of the Archmage can't be green because you already decided it was blue?

That is unbelievably petty.

Assuming that I'm not misreading, color is an insulting stand-in that serves to highlight the banality of allowing you to choose the mundane properties of your loot. There's no reason to expect the Cloak of the Unborn to have a skull motif in preference to a butterflies or even dung beetles unless the person who made it had the same sense of aesthetics as you. If every item you find happens to be tailor-made for you like that, it strains credibility and makes magic items more boring.

[Username17]

But the market doesn't explain that. If there's only one version for sale, you can't expect to be choosy about parameters. Questing doesn't explain that. If there's only one artifact in the kingdom, it doesn't make much sense to ask if it comes in red. And finding things in "random" DM pity piles stretches believability to the breaking point. We just stabbed a fire breathing turtleduck and it happened to have one of the two magic weapons we've ever seen, and this one happened to be a slightly better version of the thing I already had? Wat?

Wait...

Okay, so how the PC got the item aside, now you're getting picky about purely cosmetic aspects of the magic items? As in, you are declaring that the wizard's new Robe of the Archmage can't be green because you already decided it was blue?

That is unbelievably petty.

The "color" in this case is simply an aspect of the item. Since I'm speaking world-neutral, I'm using arbitrary parameters. I could be calling them "foo" or "spghfsdflgtr", but I thought you wouldn't be such a moronic twit if I simply used an actual stand-in adjective. Presumably, the actual properties in question would be whether it spat acid or shot lightning bolts, or whether it was a Bohemian Ear Spoon or a No Dachi. But since I am talking in generalities and it doesn't fucking matter, then it doesn't fucking matter, Asshole!

And that is why I used a joke parameter rather than a specific parameter. And then you fucking piece of shit had to thread crap this fucking thread anyway by nitpicking even that, because you're an asshole, asshole.

-Username17

[shadzar]

oh yes, cause running along the cliff placing bombs to try to blow up a single grid-square is offering the best possible play experience. sorry but EVERY square was pretty much just a pixel, and doing that or having to find which bush to burn, etc is nothing more than pixel-bitching. they are just "pixels" that are big enough to paint more than one color.

I have no idea what the hell you just said, but the Zelda series is close to the pinnacle of game design. Everything in a Zelda game is carefully designed to improve the game experience, I mean a history of the Zelda franchise is basically a history of revolutionary UI design in gaming. By comparison AD&D 2e is a thrown together mess.

Zelda was the first game that allowd you to save proges by putting a battery inside the cartridge, but other than novelty, it was all pixel bitching.

Why are wishlists even an issue in the first place? There's no need for it to be a mechanic. The ideal way to do it is for the player to show up to the campaign, and tell the DM what they think would be fun to happen in the game.

replace the bolded word with any of these:

dice
roleplaying
books
rules
DM
D&D

get the picture?

look below to udnerstand why your idea doesn't work by letting players decide what they want and should happen.

Wait...

Okay, so how the PC got the item aside, now you're getting picky about purely cosmetic aspects of the magic items? As in, you are declaring that the wizard's new Robe of the Archmage can't be green because you already decided it was blue?

That is unbelievably petty.

Assuming that I'm not misreading, color is an insulting stand-in that serves to highlight the banality of allowing you to choose the mundane properties of your loot. There's no reason to expect the Cloak of the Unborn to have a skull motif in preference to a butterflies or even dung beetles unless the person who made it had the same sense of aesthetics as you. If every item you find happens to be tailor-made for you like that, it strains credibility and makes magic items more boring.

sadly some people feel the players should have that much control as evident in the previous thread like this made by Lago.

the playes need total control or they feel like the DM is violating them and not letting them have fun. at least this is the case since 3rd edition came out and its migration of THOSE types of players to D&D and RPGs.

[Drolyt]

Zelda was the first game that allowd you to save proges by putting a battery inside the cartridge, but other than novelty, it was all pixel bitching.

I honestly don't know what you mean by pixel bitching, but the save feature (not exactly a minor innovation) is just one in a long list of innovations in the Zelda series.

sadly some people feel the players should have that much control as evident in the previous thread like this made by Lago.

the playes need total control or they feel like the DM is violating them and not letting them have fun. at least this is the case since 3rd edition came out and its migration of THOSE types of players to D&D and RPGs.

What the fuck? Of all the possible arguments against wishlists this is the worst.

[Wiseman]

On another note, Why are wishlists even an issue in the first place? There's no need for it to be a mechanic. The ideal way to do it is for the player to show up to the campaign, and tell the DM what they think would be fun to happen in the game. The DM considers this, and decides yes or no. That's it, no need for some sort of mechanic, it's entirely meta.

I know that others have already dealt with this, but seriously, have you been reading this thread at all? What you just described is what people are objecting to. We are looking for mechanical solutions because what you just described doesn't work.

Okay, my mistake.

Why are wishlists even an issue in the first place? There's no need for it to be a mechanic. The ideal way to do it is for the player to show up to the campaign, and tell the DM what they think would be fun to happen in the game.

replace the bolded word with any of these:

dice
roleplaying
books
rules
DM
D&D

get the picture?

look below to udnerstand why your idea doesn't work by letting players decide what they want and should happen.

Wait...

Okay, so how the PC got the item aside, now you're getting picky about purely cosmetic aspects of the magic items? As in, you are declaring that the wizard's new Robe of the Archmage can't be green because you already decided it was blue?

That is unbelievably petty.

Assuming that I'm not misreading, color is an insulting stand-in that serves to highlight the banality of allowing you to choose the mundane properties of your loot. There's no reason to expect the Cloak of the Unborn to have a skull motif in preference to a butterflies or even dung beetles unless the person who made it had the same sense of aesthetics as you. If every item you find happens to be tailor-made for you like that, it strains credibility and makes magic items more boring.

sadly some people feel the players should have that much control as evident in the previous thread like this made by Lago.

the playes need total control or they feel like the DM is violating them and not letting them have fun. at least this is the case since 3rd edition came out and its migration of THOSE types of players to D&D and RPGs.

Except that what your essentially stating is that you consider players having control over any aspect of the game at all is going to lead to players taking total control of the game and putting the DM out of his job.[/i]

[Drolyt]

Except that what your essentially stating is that you consider players having control over any aspect of the game at all is going to lead to players taking total control of the game and putting the DM out of his job.[/i]

I'm pretty sure this is exactly his problem. Any player who dares to question DM railroading is playing the game wrong.

[Wiseman]

So basically he views D&D as DM vs. Player.

[Omegonthesane]

Zelda was the first game that allowd you to save proges by putting a battery inside the cartridge, but other than novelty, it was all pixel bitching.

I honestly don't know what you mean by pixel bitching, but the save feature (not exactly a minor innovation) is just one in a long list of innovations in the Zelda series.

Essentially, it means having to search an area in painstaking detail for one small and well-hidden clue with no hints. It comes originally from point & click adventure games where you might need to find the one pixel you were meant to click on to do what you wanted.

[PhoneLobster]

[quote="Desdan Mervolam]...As in, you are declaring that the wizard's new Robe of the Archmage can't be green because you already decided it was blue?

That is unbelievably petty.[/quote]

And that is why I used a joke parameter rather than a specific parameter. And then you fucking piece of shit had to thread crap this fucking thread anyway by nitpicking even that, because you're an asshole, asshole.

Frank is panicking and accusing you of thread crapping because your question about color basically ends up putting him back in a position where he has to reiterate his accusations that anyone liking a particular color theme is "an asshole who wants his character to wear a clown suit" and only people wearing whatever mis-matched multi-colour poorly fitted bullshit they find are the guys who DON'T wear clown suits. Because thats what defines a not a clown suit, being randomly mismatched styled, coloured and sized, that, I repeat THAT is "NOT a clown suit" by his prior arguments.

So yeah anything that might bring Frank to openly stating the claims he himself implicitly references with mentions of color and junk is "thread crapping" because Frank doesn't want to own his own claims on the subject matter, he wants to safely refer to them like they are true and everyone accepted them last time and lets not talk about them now just in case and NOT BE FUCKING QUESTIONED ON IT HOW DARE YOU!.

[Kaelik]

Zelda was the first game that allowd you to save proges by putting a battery inside the cartridge, but other than novelty, it was all pixel bitching.

I honestly don't know what you mean by pixel bitching, but the save feature (not exactly a minor innovation) is just one in a long list of innovations in the Zelda series.

Essentially, it means having to search an area in painstaking detail for one small and well-hidden clue with no hints. It comes originally from point & click adventure games where you might need to find the one pixel you were meant to click on to do what you wanted.

I think the point is that he doesn't know how that applies to Zelda.

[tussock]

So basically he views D&D as DM vs. Player.

I'm not Shadzar, but I think that's generally not how the AD&D mentality works.

It's D&D as World vs Character. They are absolutely antagonistic at that layer of immersion. Your character will ruin the world for personal gain and the world will kill your character to stop that happening.

So while the DM is there to run the World (faithfully, rather than optimally), and Players are there to run their Characters (both faithfully and with great skill), they are actually cooperating in their descriptions of the events surrounding that ongoing battle because it's the rules and dice which settle the score.

[Fuchs]

Wish lists do work for many groups.

[Josh_Kablack]

. Presumably, the actual properties in question would be whether it spat acid or shot lightning bolts, or whether it was a Bohemian Ear Spoon or a No Dachi. But since I am talking in generalities and it doesn't fucking matter, then it doesn't fucking matter, Asshole!

Frank, did you miss the bit in the last two threads where EVERY LITTLE THING MATTERS!?!?! This is SRS BZNESS.? Especially the conflicting goals which your item drop + crafting + fantasy economy systems have to meet all of

And that is why I used a joke parameter rather than a specific parameter. And then you fucking piece of shit had to thread crap this fucking thread anyway by nitpicking even that, because you're an asshole, asshole.

-Username17

And here I thought Lago starting this thread by asking people to justify a system which he has already completely rejected for a number of reasons was pretty much an invitiation for a thread full of irreverently irrelevant crap. Hence my posting about my keyboard issues and such.

[Fuchs]

Wait...

Okay, so how the PC got the item aside, now you're getting picky about purely cosmetic aspects of the magic items? As in, you are declaring that the wizard's new Robe of the Archmage can't be green because you already decided it was blue?

That is unbelievably petty.

Assuming that I'm not misreading, color is an insulting stand-in that serves to highlight the banality of allowing you to choose the mundane properties of your loot. There's no reason to expect the Cloak of the Unborn to have a skull motif in preference to a butterflies or even dung beetles unless the person who made it had the same sense of aesthetics as you. If every item you find happens to be tailor-made for you like that, it strains credibility and makes magic items more boring.

You can save the credibility by adding a simple mechanic to recolor/restyle stuff. Maybe a cheap ritual anyone of sufficient "power" (aka, any PC-Level character) can do. That would avoid the player characters having to wear clown suits. It would also mean no one would care much about how an item looked when found.

If faced with the choice of either having boring magic items, or my characters looking like colorblinds fools, I'll take style anytime.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

Basically, I'm taking Frank's response as either "Yes, I'm incredibly petty, thanks for asking", or that Frank is turning into Walter Sobchack and yelling "This isn't 'Nam! There are Rules!".

[Desdan_Mervolam]

You can save the credibility by adding a simple mechanic to recolor/restyle stuff. Maybe a cheap ritual anyone of sufficient "power" (aka, any PC-Level character) can do. That would avoid the player characters having to wear clown suits. It would also mean no one would care much about how an item looked when found.

If faced with the choice of either having boring magic items, or my characters looking like colorblinds fools, I'll take style anytime.

Or you can do the obvious thing and decide that minor cosmetic details that don't effect anything but the PCs satisfaction with the item aren't worth the table grief that results from arguing with them.

[Username17]

Basically, I'm taking Frank's response as either "Yes, I'm incredibly petty, thanks for asking", or that Frank is turning into Walter Sobchack and yelling "This isn't 'Nam! There are Rules!".

Go fuck yourself. Seriously, we can't even have a conversation about anything if you you're too fucking stupid to understand variables. We use placeholder variables because it shows how the structure of reasoning works.

Like how when Wiseman offered up the "just ask the MC to decide whether a thing happens or not" resolution system, we held up the exact same argument with different subsystems put into the variable and then he realized what a retard he was being.

Arguing against the choice of a stand-in variable is just unbelievably retarded. "No! We can't use X! We have to use Y!" It's simply a non-argument. Bitching about the variable chosen in a logical argument is beyond pettiness, it's a fundamental lack of understanding of communication in general. I seriously cannot have a conversation with you, about anything, if you refuse to accept that variables will be used in sentences.

And that's why I'm going to put you on ignore for about a week. Maybe more, we'll see how I'm feeling later on.

-Username17

[Josh_Kablack]

Hrm, actually with this particular keyboard, the top-row placement means that Y is whole lot more reliable to use than X.