Arguments in favor of magic item wishlists.

[ishy]

Actually the cloak was not a gift from Dumbledore, but it was owned by Harry's father.

Ugh. My cousin is a huge Harry Potter fan, and you are full of shit. While it was Harry's father's cloak, Harry's father had given it to Dumbledore, and then Dumbledore gave it to Harry. We all know that literally all of the backstory of that piece of shit was made up later, but the original entrance seriously is just that the DMPC gives it to Harry for a christmas present.

-Username17

"'I bet it was Dumbledore,' said Ron, [ . . . ] 'He sent you the Invisibility Cloak anonymously ...'
'That was my dad's, though,' said Harry. 'Dumbledore was just passing it on to me.

The characters in the story don't really consider it to be a present.

[infected slut princess]

Here is a question I have:

How much of this controversy emerges from the assumption that characters will upgrade their equipment "a lot"?

Perhaps a solution to this debate would be more obvious if the assumption of "lots of upgrading all the time" were abandoned entirely.

In most fantasy stories, people do not get a dozen different magic items that are all upgraded three or four times throughout their lives.

Instead, it seems they might get, I dunno, 2-5 magic items TOTAL in their whole lives.

[Omegonthesane]

Here is a question I have:

How much of this controversy emerges from the assumption that characters will upgrade their equipment "a lot"?

Perhaps a solution to this debate would be more obvious if the assumption of "lots of upgrading all the time" were abandoned entirely.

In most fantasy stories, people do not get a dozen different magic items that are all upgraded three or four times throughout their lives.

Instead, it seems they might get, I dunno, 2-5 magic items TOTAL in their whole lives.

It's apparently a mainstay of D&D that you steal people's shit, repeatedly, and gain power thereby. Myself, I'd prefer it if numbers scaled with the wielder like in the Book of Gears, but that doesn't make it compatible with D&D. Given that "you steal people's things" is an axiom, selling or pulverising it as vendor trash is kind of lame and magically finding the exact vendor trash you wanted puts credibility at risk.

[shadzar]

people have said just that in terms of magic items shouldnt be needed to stay on the RNG...or phrased something like that.

the problem is in designing a game where people can make their pet character concept for their mini-novella they wish to force everyone else playing to try to tell....people just want more shit. people want the christmas tree ornament effect.

low-magic games exist without the need for "wishlists".

[PhoneLobster]

It's not that I don't see serious problems with wishlists - but I fail to see a massive degree difference in severity between the problems of wishlists and the problems of any other item drop system ever.

My issue with this is similar. With the addition that the manner in which they attack wish lists with such ludicrous criticism (ie clown suits and Lago's entire off topic "specifics" list in the OP, etc...) essentially is an attack on... basically all item systems, and indeed all to often equally valid as an attack on their OWN item systems.

I STILL recall that last time this rolled around Frank declared "Dire Flails and I walk!". If a player asked for a Dire Flail, the GM said "its on a side quest" the party chose NOT to go and the GM dropped a Dire Flail then Frank said he would flip the table and walk. He used this as a means to attack adaptive beneficial drops to fill PC needs. But... his solution scenario, of Random Treasure Drops could in fact generate the table flip scenario. And indeed only an adaptive arbitrary drop system could have even prevented it.

The problem is basically the sheer level of total fucking bullshit being generated by a certain couple of prominent posters surrounding the topic.

[ishy]

How do you think item sizes should be handled?
Let's say we have a party of small people attacking giants (or vice versa).

A) You happen to only find small sized items from other adventurers.
B) Items automagically change size to match yours.
C) You'll find items you can't wear, but you can resize them somehow (crafter, magic ritual, spell or whatever)
D) You'll find items you can't wear, but can sell.
E) You'll find items you can't wear and fuck you.
F) Something else?

[PhoneLobster]

How do you think item sizes should be handled?
Let's say we have a party of small people attacking giants (or vice versa).

The more important scenario is what do you do when you have a party of mixed size looting anything at all. If 1 out of 5 party members is Small, 1 is large and the rest are medium the whole "no options final destination random clown suits are awesome" thing means that the small or large sized PCs are forced into much smaller pools of random magical items due to the additional requirement of size limitations and things get much worse on the randomised clown suit front.

If you use hand wavium of potentially various sorts to ensure that all drops are usable by all sizes... why isn't that hand wavium applied in other useful ways?

[shadzar]

How do you think item sizes should be handled?
Let's say we have a party of small people attacking giants (or vice versa).

A) You happen to only find small sized items from other adventurers.
B) Items automagically change size to match yours.
C) You'll find items you can't wear, but you can resize them somehow (crafter, magic ritual, spell or whatever)
D) You'll find items you can't wear, but can sell.
E) You'll find items you can't wear and fuck you.
F) Something else?

D,E for magic items, but odds are nobody will be able to give you full book value, and you would be foolish to just sell it. (let's someone else have a chance to use it against you.)

D for non-magic items.

for everything else, players can make their own shit or commission a blacksmith or whatever to make their special needs shit.

[Drolyt]

Uh... the author of a single author fiction is wearing his MC hat, and not his PC hat when he determines arbitrarily what items the protagonist(s) find.

Why? I mean, that is how D&D works, but a lot of games give player's some "author" powers, usually through something like "hero points". I see zero problem with a player spending a hero point to insert the item they want into the treasure pile.

[deaddmwalking]

Hrm, thinking a little more about the NFL-Draft Salary Cap Item system, the part that's interesting when I'm awake and sober is not the drafting and trading - but the fact that it's a salary based system at all

The D&D economy looks very very different if you have to pay each of your items wages to keep using them (weapon maintenance costs, ritual components, handwavium for game balance). With that sort of upkeep cost it becomes important for PCs to balance magic item and GP gain, large mundane treasures can be useful incentives and it makes sense why powerful kings and liches buried their excess magic swag instead of using all of it.

Still catching up, but since it seems relevant, I thought I'd mention what we do.

Every character has some number of 'spell points'. Spell points are useful for casting spells if that's something you do. If you don't cast spells (or even if you do), you can also use your spell points to 'power' magic items.

Since every magic item uses some of your spell points, you largely eliminate the 'Christmas Tree' effect - players only use the items that they can pay for; they only pay for the items that they can use. They can hoard excess items or trade them away - doesn't really matter.

Some items can be more powerful if you use more spell points. This allows some items to 'level'. So you could find a 'really good item' at 1st level without breaking the game because you'll unlock the 'really good abilities' at a higher level.

Okay - back to catching up.

[Wiseman]

How do you think item sizes should be handled?
Let's say we have a party of small people attacking giants (or vice versa).

A) You happen to only find small sized items from other adventurers.
B) Items automagically change size to match yours.
C) You'll find items you can't wear, but you can resize them somehow (crafter, magic ritual, spell or whatever)
D) You'll find items you can't wear, but can sell.
E) You'll find items you can't wear and fuck you.
F) Something else?

Wasn't it stated in the 3.5 DMG that magic items automatically resized themselves to fit the wielder?

[CatharzGodfoot]

How do you think item sizes should be handled?
Let's say we have a party of small people attacking giants (or vice versa).

A) You happen to only find small sized items from other adventurers.
B) Items automagically change size to match yours.
C) You'll find items you can't wear, but you can resize them somehow (crafter, magic ritual, spell or whatever)
D) You'll find items you can't wear, but can sell.
E) You'll find items you can't wear and fuck you.
F) Something else?

Wasn't it stated in the 3.5 DMG that magic items automatically resized themselves to fit the wielder?

Once you accept that a normal nonmagical suit of full plate mail will fit both a 6'6", 150 lb person and a 4', 300 lb person, it's not a stretch to say that magical full plate mail automagically resizes to fit anyone.

[Drolyt]

Once you accept that a normal nonmagical suit of full plate mail will fit both a 6'6", 150 lb person and a 4', 300 lb person, it's not a stretch to say that magical full plate mail automagically resizes to fit anyone.

The PHB actually says that full plate has to be individually fitted, which is historically accurate. Found full plate can be refitted for 2d4 x 100 gp. I suppose you can be forgiven for missing that though.

Since I'm nitpicking I might as well point out that full plate is by definition not mail.

[hogarth]

• All items are character abilities you pay character points for runs into the problems of charging players for finding cool things and doesn't let the MC use treasure hoards as effective incentives.

The fact that you're discouraged from using "the princess is in another castle" "let's go get another pile of treasure" as a motivation over and over and over again sounds like a feature, not a bug.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Once you accept that a normal nonmagical suit of full plate mail will fit both a 6'6", 150 lb person and a 4', 300 lb person, it's not a stretch to say that magical full plate mail automagically resizes to fit anyone.

The PHB actually says that full plate has to be individually fitted, which is historically accurate. Found full plate can be refitted for 2d4 x 100 gp. I suppose you can be forgiven for missing that though.

Since I'm nitpicking I might as well point out that full plate is by definition not mail.

Wow, I walked right into that one. Take the example of any other armor in the book.

[Fuchs]

As I said several pages ago, my real issue with the "wishlists strain credibility and coherence" argument is that it is not a unique flaw to wishlist systems: [...]

I agree with you. But wishlists are somewhat more problematic because it either makes the mc an asshole or the players' bitch.

And that's the problem - some egos cannot handle players having any say on the campaign. Delivering what players want is the hallmark of a good DM.

As far as coherence goes: You can always get an explanation why a Special item was found in that particular spot. Looks to me some assholes simply cannot stomach other Players getting what they want, and have the pretext of "it strains my credibility that we just found a perfect rapier for the swashbucker!" instead of "I demand he play a murdering hobo with random gear!"

Seeing as we already kill and butcher credibility just by playing heroes who take a thousands licking and keep on ticking, instead of dieing in droves, ToH style, I really cannot take anyone seriously who brings out the tired "but it strains credibility" argument. "PCs are Special" can cover that, as another poster pointed out fate could be bringing them the items they need.

Or people could just shut up, and let other Players enjoy getting what they want.

[Username17]

Uh... the author of a single author fiction is wearing his MC hat, and not his PC hat when he determines arbitrarily what items the protagonist(s) find.

Why? I mean, that is how D&D works

You just answered your own damn question. Fuchs just cited the fact that the authors of single author fiction determine what magic items the characters find in their travels as evidence of player narrative control over found magic items. But it's obviously not evidence of that, because of how D&D works.

Now if you want to get real proof that the author is wearing their railroading DM hat all you have to do is check out the existence of cursed items. Matt's player would obviously never wishlist up a cursed dagger whose primary effect was to make his character weak and useless for the next several books, even if a couple of books later it allow his otherwise useless character to track a minor villain in a shallow rip off of the end of Dracula.

-Username17

[Fuchs]

Uh... the author of a single author fiction is wearing his MC hat, and not his PC hat when he determines arbitrarily what items the protagonist(s) find.

Why? I mean, that is how D&D works

You just answered your own damn question. Fuchs just cited the fact that the authors of single author fiction determine what magic items the characters find in their travels as evidence of player narrative control over found magic items. But it's obviously not evidence of that, because of how D&D works.

Now if you want to get real proof that the author is wearing their railroading DM hat all you have to do is check out the existence of cursed items. Matt's player would obviously never wishlist up a cursed dagger whose primary effect was to make his character weak and useless for the next several books, even if a couple of books later it allow his otherwise useless character to track a minor villain in a shallow rip off of the end of Dracula.

-Username17

Never? "GM, I need to leave for my military service, I'll not be able to play for 17 weeks then. Can you find a way to explain why my character will not be doing anything? Maybe a cool cursed weapon or so, that I can get rid of when I am back?"

[ishy]

Wasn't it stated in the 3.5 DMG that magic items automatically resized themselves to fit the wielder?

When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. As a rule, size should not keep overweight characters, characters of various genders, or characters of various kinds from using magic items. Players shouldn’t be penalized for choosing a halfling character or deciding that their character is especially tall.

Only say “It doesn’t fit” if there’s a good reason. Cloaks made specifically by the selfish, self-absorbed drow elves might fit only elves. Dwarves might make items usable only by dwarf-sized and dwarf-shaped characters to keep their items from being used against them. Such items should be the exceptions, however, not the rule.

So some items resize, armour and weapons for example don't.

[tussock]

As I said several pages ago, my real issue with the "wishlists strain credibility and coherence" argument is that it is not a unique flaw to wishlist systems:

The solution to the problems of wishlists (and mother-may-I mechanics in general) is to not use them. Your other problems have time-worn and tested solutions that make them basically fine, if a little counter-intuitive here and there.

• People do "sell" you magic items, but not for gold pieces or other mundane fungibles. You want a Staff of Power, dude with one wants a Celestial Dragon killed; go make a deal. Some basically mundane items should likely be fungible anyway, like with 3e's alchemy.
• Random Drops require prep time to make them less stupid, and suggest that items are universally usable (rather than all being Ork guns that only work for Orks). Post-hoc drops are a holdover from computer games that had to live in 64k of RAM, and should go die in a fire.
• Wealth by Level should be a minimum guideline for newly made high-level PCs and NPCs, and should be substantially lower than what actual PCs-from-level-1 end up with. Because the game should reward people who it rewards.
• A couple critters with "only hurt by +X or better weapons" haven't conquered the duchy/world because those sort of creatures don't get out much. Seriously, would you like a list? Also, they totally take out the odd town. And Iuz got them to take over a few Duchies under his command too.
• Treasure division between PCs is a problem that needs some thought, but everyone solves it one way or another. Also, people in general are less jealous of what the dice hand out as treasure than what the GM hands out (because they think random is a synonym for fair, sucks to be them).

[Kaelik]

Never? "GM, I need to leave for my military service, I'll not be able to play for 17 weeks then. Can you find a way to explain why my character will not be doing anything? Maybe a cool cursed weapon or so, that I can get rid of when I am back?"

Wholly fuck, you do not ever shut up with your completely bullshit disingenuous asshat nitpicking do you?

[Fuchs]

• People do "sell" you magic items, but not for gold pieces or other mundane fungibles. You want a Staff of Power, dude with one wants a Celestial Dragon killed; go make a deal.

And that is different from "Mother may I" exactly how?

• Wealth by Level should be a minimum guideline for newly made high-level PCs and NPCs, and should be substantially lower than what actual PCs-from-level-1 end up with. Because the game should reward people who it rewards.

If you need to artificially limit new PCs just so they are not better off with regards to magic items than characters raised from Level 1, then your magic item system needs work.

Also, making new characters be substantially weaker than established characters is bad for the game. It makes people not wanting to join a game in progress, or drop out after losing a character.

[Drolyt]

You just answered your own damn question. Fuchs just cited the fact that the authors of single author fiction determine what magic items the characters find in their travels as evidence of player narrative control over found magic items. But it's obviously not evidence of that, because of how D&D works.

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. Fuchs obviously isn't making any sense, I wasn't defending his argument. Rather, I just think that one of your assumptions, that only the DM wears the author hat, doesn't have to work that way. If players want some control over what kind of items they get I think giving them metagame currency is a viable solution, or at the very least it is worlds better than mother-may-I mechanics like wishlists.

[Fuchs]

Never? "GM, I need to leave for my military service, I'll not be able to play for 17 weeks then. Can you find a way to explain why my character will not be doing anything? Maybe a cool cursed weapon or so, that I can get rid of when I am back?"

Wholly fuck, you do not ever shut up with your completely bullshit disingenuous asshat nitpicking do you?

Completely bullshit? Having players unable to attend our wednesday sessions for 15 or 17 weeks is a normal occurrence here, mandatory military service will cause that.

Having a player wish for a cursed item, or wish to keep a curse going for a few weeks or months of real playing time even if the GM intended to have it cured in one session also happened in my games.

[Fuchs]

You just answered your own damn question. Fuchs just cited the fact that the authors of single author fiction determine what magic items the characters find in their travels as evidence of player narrative control over found magic items. But it's obviously not evidence of that, because of how D&D works.

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. Fuchs obviously isn't making any sense, I wasn't defending his argument. Rather, I just think that one of your assumptions, that only the DM wears the author hat, doesn't have to work that way. If players want some control over what kind of items they get I think giving them metagame currency is a viable solution, or at the very least it is worlds better than mother-may-I mechanics like wishlists.

Wishlist, or "everyone gets X Tokens they can redeem to place an item of their choice per Level", works out the same - players get what they want, not what the random dice rolls say they should get.

The whole point is that some people cannot stand if players get to pick their character's looks and gear.

It's been clear for some time that some people here, prominent posters, have social issues which make them drivel about "hard-coded rules" being needed for gaming groups, all the while ignoring that even their precious hard-coded rules are only enforced as much as the gaming group in question allows. There is no court of law enforcing gaming rules on a group. If you have a problem with a rule, or a house rule, or a member of the group, you can't appeal to a higher authority and have them decide, you'll have to solve it with the rest of the group.