D&D 3.x war strategies: Mind Flayers versus Lich King

[Kaelik]

A one-charge wand of magic missile is 7.5 gold. Equipping 350 experts with one rank each of UMD costs 2625 gold, and will usually kill a level 12 lich from 110 feet away, on the first round. Liches are certainly nasty, but there are some very low-level counters.

Edit: I skipped SR. The numbers change; the concept doesn't.

The Lich cast the Shield spell. Result: Infinite minions do nothing.

[K]

The Lich cast the Shield spell. Result: Infinite minions do nothing.

The Lich in the OP is a Dread Necromancer and doesn't have Shield.

Of course, he could have a scroll to UMD or a Ring of Spell Storing or something, but this can't even be a conversation if we start including possible magic items because literally any tactic in DnD-land then comes into play.

[Kaelik]

Of course, he could have a scroll to UMD or a Ring of Spell Storing or something, but this can't even be a conversation if we start including possible magic items because literally any tactic in DnD-land then comes into play.

So I'm not allowed to hypothesize a Charisma based caster with a higher UMD bonus than level 1 Experts UMDing a Wand of Shield to counter 400 Wands of Magic Missile because that would be bringing items into it?

I bravely hypothesize that the 400 wands of magic missile indicate that someone was already including possible magic items.

[Winnah]

Sounds like a job for Arcane Disciple. I have lost familiarity with cleric domains.

I think Nerull has access to the Shadow Domain. It gives Shadow Conjuration/Evocation, as well as Shadow Walk. That would allow the lich access to Phantom Steed and Wind Wall (only useful while stationary). I am not sure if there are many personal evocation/conjuration spells capable of deflecting magical missiles. I don't particularly feel like dumpster diving at the moment, especially for an edge that may not even be appropriate for this DN character.

[Username17]

Of course, he could have a scroll to UMD or a Ring of Spell Storing or something, but this can't even be a conversation if we start including possible magic items because literally any tactic in DnD-land then comes into play.

So I'm not allowed to hypothesize a Charisma based caster with a higher UMD bonus than level 1 Experts UMDing a Wand of Shield to counter 400 Wands of Magic Missile because that would be bringing items into it?

I bravely hypothesize that the 400 wands of magic missile indicate that someone was already including possible magic items.

You're allowed to hypothesize all you want, but at this point you're basically being Roy or JaronK. Yes, we know that a counter exists for all possible tactics, but any defense that requires a considerable amount of foresight and investiture is not in fact going to be used unless it defends from a lot of things. Those 400 one-shot magic missile wands can be completed by a single wizard in less than a week, and represents a fairly decent surprise tactic. But it is not the only possible tactic an enemy could employ and isn't even a particularly likely tactic. Investing in defenses to specifically counter something that probably won't come up is a whole lot like taking resources and dumping them down the drain.

In the actual conflict, the two factions would invest in their attacks and defenses with very little information about what the other side was doing. And in that circumstance, neither faction is going to waste 1500 gp on a Brooch of Shielding. Not because they can't, and not because that wouldn't be effective at stopping a very specific tactic, but because that would very obviously have a very poor cost/benefit ratio unless you had extremely privileged information that your opponent was very definitely going to go all in on a very specific tactic that you could deploy a specific defense against for great advantage.

Or to put it another way: Wizards do not normally go around with Shield up because they have shit to do and Shield is a kind of shitty spell that doesn't last very long or provide very large benefits. Non-Wizards pretty much never go into battle with Shield up, because it still doesn't last very long or provide very large benefits and the opportunity cost for non-Wizards to deploy it is even higher.

If you want a sensible counter to the Magic Missile Palooza, you'd deploy something that was actually helpful against many things and therefore worth the cost. You might go into battle invisibly, or use disguise magic to have many of your minions appear to be the Lich King. Those things would also work, but they are things that the Lich might actually do because they prevent a wide assortment of plausible tactics rather than being targeted against a single unlikely degenerate strategy that probably won't see use.

-Username17

[Winnah]

Magical items require a minimum of 1 day to craft. 350 single-charge wands (assuming you can make single charge wands) would take a year for a single wizard to create.

It is a reasonable assumption that magical ammunition is created in lots of 50 though. So outfitting an army with magical sling-stones is possible to achieve in a short amount of time.

[Kaelik]

Those 400 one-shot magic missile wands can be completed by a single wizard in less than a week, and represents a fairly decent surprise tactic.

Except for the part where you are completely wrong and it would actually take over a year for one Wizard to make them. And if they are bought, then it is perfectly plausible that the Lich, by means of his regular and magical intelligence sources might plausibly find out about the 400 wands purchased by his likely enemies.

[RobbyPants]

Magical items require a minimum of 1 day to craft. 350 single-charge wands (assuming you can make single charge wands) would take a year for a single wizard to create.

Just create seven 50-charge wands, have your wizards stand in lines of 50, and free-action pass them from wizard to wizard after each casting.

How you get 50 distinct 6-second actions taken consecutively in a 6-second time period is beyond me, but whatever.

[fectin]

So, my point wasn't that mass magic missile is some l33t übertactic. I think it does happen to make for surprisingly good militia defense, but obviously there are counters.
The real point is that low-level tactics can combine and scale in exciting ways, even ones which are not normally good.
If I were actually trying to put together an anti-lich army along those lines, I'd mix in a couple dozen wands of silence, another couple dozen of glitterdust, a bunch of archers, etc. The nice part is that it doubles as an anti-everything-else army.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Does the word "compel" have special meaning I'm not seeing in this context (I think [Compulsion] is a tag for some spells)?

No, it has it's standard English meaning, to force someone to X. In this case, when you compel it to perform a service, you force it to perform the goddam service, you idiot.

You are going to need to put a little more effort into articulating your arguments if you want me to take them seriously. For the moment, let's set aside the fact that Planar Binding has a clause enabling "I'm destroying your enemies... metaphorically", "By destroying your fortress now, I'm protecting it from harm in the future", and maybe even "Sorry, guy, I kinda forgot what I was supposed to be doing. So I torched that village and brought you some of their treasure. Good enough?"

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview ... compulsion
There. Compulsion is indeed a spell tag that exists in D&D. Planar Binding doesn't have it, probably because it's an Enchantment subschool. I see nothing in Calling that implies a called creature's orders are fixed in such a way as to override other forms of mind control, especially if they're enchantments tagged for "forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way her mind works".

That gives me serious concern over what happens when a mind flayer can use "I Suggest that you disregard your summoner's orders and do whatever you like" at will. If the outsiders voluntarily fail their saves, that could pave the way for serious trouble.

[Kaelik]

That gives me serious concern over what happens when a mind flayer can use "I Suggest that you disregard your summoner's orders and do whatever you like" at will. If the outsiders voluntarily fail their saves, that could pave the way for serious trouble.

What happens is the same thing as when the suggest that you make your save on the next no save Dominate effect used on you. Fucking nothing.

Again, the word compel has a fucking meaning, it means force you to do X. What possible understanding of the sentence "You are compelled to perform a service" allows you to just not do a service because you don't feel like doing it?

[Omegonthesane]

That gives me serious concern over what happens when a mind flayer can use "I Suggest that you disregard your summoner's orders and do whatever you like" at will. If the outsiders voluntarily fail their saves, that could pave the way for serious trouble.

What happens is the same thing as when the suggest that you make your save on the next no save Dominate effect used on you. Fucking nothing.

Again, the word compel has a fucking meaning, it means force you to do X. What possible understanding of the sentence "You are compelled to perform a service" allows you to just not do a service because you don't feel like doing it?

Explain to me why a dictionary definition with no mechanical backing whatsoever overrides a codified supernatural compulsion such as Suggestion.

[Kaelik]

Explain to me why a dictionary definition with no mechanical backing whatsoever overrides a codified supernatural compulsion such as Suggestion.

The supernatural mechanical backing of the Calling spell which specifically states that it compels action overrides a suggestion that someone not do what the spell compels them to do. Because suggestion can only suggest you do something that you can already do, and the demon does not have the ability to choose not to do the compelled action.

The demon is magically compelled by the calling spell to perform a specific action. Do you dispute this? Because either way, you are retarded.

Let's say, hypothetically, there was a spell called Compel Stillness. But it didn't have the Compulsion tag. The spell was no save, and the only spell text was the following. "You compel the creature to take no actions for the duration of the spell."

What would you think that spell does? Would you say, "Well, even though the spell text uses words in the natural language, I think it means that I can choose to take any actions I want."?

How does your refusal to understand the word compel in spell text not ultimately result in saying that fireball does nothing because various versions of the verb "to be" aren't mechanically defined?

[Vebyast]

I was trying to come up with a good way to approximate a real shieldwall in DND math, and it occurred to me that having your army all squeezing into spaces with each other might be a reasonable tactic. Every individual dude takes -4 to attacks and -4 to AC, but you get twice as many people into the same lenght as your opponent, which means that you get twice as many attacks and your opponent has to distribute their attacks out over twice as many people. Thoughts?

---

The Fear Aura only goes out to 60 feet. It makes him auto-win any fight that happens indoors, but won't have much effect on a battlefield. The Illithid mind blast is pretty similar. Terrifying in a walled environment, but not actually that useful in any situation where you are concerned what the range increment of a projectile might be.

The range is a problem when you're dealing with flying murder hobos, but armies are far less mobile and therefore far more vulnerable. Also, fear is a long-term effect - everybody that fails their save drops their weapons and spends 12 rounds running away. In other words, your army gets 12 free rounds to kill them, and even after that they've been mostly disarmed. Combine that with an army of skeletons so your own army isn't doing the same thing, and your recipe for victory is to slowly walk down the lines 15 feet back.

[fectin]

I was trying to come up with a good way to approximate a real shieldwall in DND math, and it occurred to me that having your army all squeezing into spaces with each other might be a reasonable tactic. Every individual dude takes -4 to attacks and -4 to AC, but you get twice as many people into the same lenght as your opponent, which means that you get twice as many attacks and your opponent has to distribute their attacks out over twice as many people. Thoughts?

Why is just a line of guys with tower shields providing 90% cover to them and everyone behind them not a good enough approximation?

[Omegonthesane]

Explain to me why a dictionary definition with no mechanical backing whatsoever overrides a codified supernatural compulsion such as Suggestion.

The supernatural mechanical backing of the Calling spell which specifically states that it compels action overrides a suggestion that someone not do what the spell compels them to do.

That's bullshit right fucking there. Let me get out the only time Compel is used in that entire description:

You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature’s Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward. If the creature wins the opposed check, it refuses service. New offers, bribes, and the like can be made or the old ones reoffered every 24 hours. This process can be repeated until the creature promises to serve, until it breaks free, or until you decide to get rid of it by means of some other spell. Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to.

Once the requested service is completed, the creature need only so inform you to be instantly sent back whence it came. The creature might later seek revenge. If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete though its own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level, and the creature gains an immediate chance to break free. Note that a clever recipient can subvert some instructions.

My natural English reading of this passage is this: The called demon (for argument's sake) does not give in to the force of your magical powers if it loses the opposed Charisma test. It agrees to the deal offered, in which you render it the service of letting it go home once the task is done plus whatever rewards you gave - unless you want to say that offering the demon a blowjob makes it literally harder for it to resist your mind control rays, rather than making the deal more attractive. The supernatural compulsion upon the demon is simply that it can't go home until it does the literal wording of the job - if for some reason it wants to be in vulnerable mode outside its home plane forever it can just tell you to go fuck yourself and do that, though it can reasonably expect to die in short order at your hand if it does that to your face.

The demon is magically compelled by the calling spell to perform a specific action. Do you dispute this? Because either way, you are retarded.

As laid out above - if by "magically compelled" you mean "rendered literally incapable of taking any other action" rather than "imprisoned against its will on a plane it doesn't want to occupy until it does", then I absolutely do dispute it, because it's not even vaguely hinted at in the description.

Do you dispute that taking someone by force from their home and arranging matters so that the only way they can ever see their family again is to do your bidding is in fact forcing them to do your bidding?

[Vebyast]

I was trying to come up with a good way to approximate a real shieldwall in DND math, and it occurred to me that having your army all squeezing into spaces with each other might be a reasonable tactic. Every individual dude takes -4 to attacks and -4 to AC, but you get twice as many people into the same lenght as your opponent, which means that you get twice as many attacks and your opponent has to distribute their attacks out over twice as many people. Thoughts?

Why is just a line of guys with tower shields providing 90% cover to them and everyone behind them not a good enough approximation?

Right, cover is not undirected. And even if you don't want to make custom equipment or abilities, using a tower shield only prevents you from attacking, not the guy behind you with a reach weapon.

[Kaelik]

Let me get out the only time Compel is used in that entire description:

You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward.

Yes, the only time that it uses the word compel is when it describes how the outsider is compelled to perform a service. Because that is the only time it is relevant that they are compelled to perform a service.

My natural English reading of this passage is this: The called demon (for argument's sake) does not give in to the force of your magical powers if it loses the opposed Charisma test. It agrees to the deal offered, in which you render it the service of letting it go home once the task is done plus whatever rewards you gave - unless you want to say that offering the demon a blowjob makes it literally harder for it to resist your mind control rays, rather than making the deal more attractive. The supernatural compulsion upon the demon is simply that it can't go home until it does the literal wording of the job - if for some reason it wants to be in vulnerable mode outside its home plane forever it can just tell you to go fuck yourself and do that, though it can reasonably expect to die in short order at your hand if it does that to your face.

Your natural English reading is fucking terrible and you should go back to grade school. Because the word compelled actually means something. So if after they agree to the service, they can just fucking leave and never come back and never do the service, then they haven't been compelled.

Your trite attempt to pretend D&D real life aside, the obvious answer is that once they agree to the service for any reason (including mind lazors, since you can totally offer them the deal of "you die in service to me, or you stay here for a few days" and have them accept) the immediately are compelled to perform the service, you know, by the spell, the magic spell, that specifically says that it compels them to perform the service.

As laid out above - if by "magically compelled" you mean "rendered literally incapable of taking any other action" rather than "imprisoned against its will on a plane it doesn't want to occupy until it does", then I absolutely do dispute it, because it's not even vaguely hinted at in the description.

Other than where it is expressly stated, it is never even implied. Because it was stated in the first fucking sentence of the quoted portion.

[Omegonthesane]

Let me get out the only time Compel is used in that entire description:

You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward.

Yes, the only time that it uses the word compel is when it describes how the outsider is compelled to perform a service. Because that is the only time it is relevant that they are compelled to perform a service.

Except, it isn't - see below - and even if it was, the fact you are compelled to do one thing in absolutely no fucking way prevents you from later being compelled to do a different thing.

Your trite attempt to pretend D&D real life aside, the obvious answer is that once they agree to the service for any reason (including mind lazors, since you can totally offer them the deal of "you die in service to me, or you stay here for a few days" and have them accept) the immediately are compelled to perform the service, you know, by the spell, the magic spell, that specifically says that it compels them to perform the service.

Your Charisma check makes them follow the service. The spell just gets them on the negotiating table. Suggestion also compels them to do things, and as far as I am concerned it does so more strongly than any deal you might have made with the demon using Planar Binding.

As laid out above - if by "magically compelled" you mean "rendered literally incapable of taking any other action" rather than "imprisoned against its will on a plane it doesn't want to occupy until it does", then I absolutely do dispute it, because it's not even vaguely hinted at in the description.

Other than where it is expressly stated, it is never even implied. Because it was stated in the first fucking sentence of the quoted portion.

The definition of "compels" is satisfied by using extreme duress to coerce the demon into doing the task. If it was rendered literally no more capable of acting against the deal than eating the sun, the spell description would spell that out in excruciating detail right down to the bit where it is now immune to other magical compulsions that would contradict it.

You will also note that the other heavy hitters in the Den haven't touched this tangent despite their interest in the rest of the thread, and how this greatly affects the Lich-King's fire and forget demons. I would extrapolate from this that one of us is being truly mind-bogglingly obviously stupid, and while my fuckery with the passage was a stretch, my money is still on the person who thinks it is more likely that Planar Binding grants the victim Mind Blank against all effects that would break the deal than that WotC didn't check the dictionary carefully when they used "compel" rather than, say, "convince".

[Kaelik]

the fact you are compelled to do one thing in absolutely no fucking way prevents you from later being compelled to do a different thing.

So? It does prevent you from being compelled to not be compelled. You can tell the Demon to do all sorts of things with a suggestion, but when the duration ends, he is still compelled to perform his service.

Your Charisma check makes them follow the service. The spell just gets them on the negotiating table.

Except for the part of the spell that specifically says that it compels them to perform the service. Seriously though, how do you think the Charisma check that is only part of the spell and doesn't exist outside the spell compels them to perform a service without the spell compelling their service?

The definition of "compels" is satisfied by using extreme duress to coerce the demon into doing the task.

You are an idiot. This is a Demon. Now, when you cast Magic Circle, Dimensional Anchor, and then Planar Binding, it is compelled to perform a service. We know this, because the spell doesn't say "It is compelled to perform the service, unless it is a Beblith, in which case it isn't compelled."

How is a Beblith compelled to perform the service exactly? How for that matter is a Devil who can Greater Teleport in a world with portals. He can literally just Greater Teleport to a portal to the Abyss in a single standard action. How are they being compelled to perform a service?

Why doesn't the spell say "They are compelled to perform a service, unless they don't feel like it, in which case they just do whatever they want, like go home, which most outsiders easily can."

If it was rendered literally no more capable of acting against the deal than eating the sun, the spell description would spell that out in excruciating detail right down to the bit where it is now immune to other magical compulsions that would contradict it.

So your official position is that When someone casts Dominate Monster or Suggestion, you can just do whatever you want and ignore the spells, because after all, if they were really magically compelling you, you would have specific text stating that you were immune to other compulsions.

So for example, if someone casts Dominate Monster, you just cast Suggestion "Don't be Dominated." and the Domination just magically disappears.

my money is still on the person who thinks it is more likely that Planar Binding grants the victim Mind Blank against all effects that would break the deal than that WotC didn't check the dictionary carefully when they used "compel" rather than, say, "convince".

Strawmen are so much fun.

[ishy]

Note that a clever recipient can subvert some instructions.

Why would they include this text if the demon could just ignore the entire agreement?

[Kaelik]

Note that a clever recipient can subvert some instructions.

Why would they include this text if the demon could just ignore the entire agreement?

Because what if a Cleric comes along and casts Compel Demon To Serve.

[Ice9]

The fact that people call demons with Planar Binding - more than once - is a good indication that the spell is, in fact, binding. Because demons are dicks, chaotic ones at that, and would totally ignore any kind of "deal" that they "agreed" to, the first time it becomes convenient for them to do so.

That's not to say that they're immune to other mind control, it just follows the normal rules for opposing control effects (either opposed Cha, or opposed CL, IIRC). There are uses of Suggestion that would still fly - "So you're bound to guard the gate ... I think you should look very carefully in the direction of that shrubbery, in case someone is trying to hide in there. And ignore any walking sounds from behind you, they're just a distraction." But it would still be limited to the normal duration and degree of control that Suggestion gives you.

[DSMatticus]

Planar binding is binding. It's not clear how binding it is, but it absolutely 100% is binding. If it were not binding in some way, the spell wouldn't fucking do anything except bring things to your immediate vicinity that want to stabbinate you in the face the second they get free, making it easily one of the worst spells in the SRD. Omegon, you said a dumb thing.

You cannot voluntarily fail saving throws that would prevent you from accomplishing tasks you are compelled to complete. That's dumb, because if you can just willingly autofail at the first obstacle you encounter you weren't actually compelled at all. Avoracio, you said a dumb thing.

Compulsions are compulsions, and if you fail the saving throw against them and the demand being made is valid as per the spell text you do not have any choice whatsoever - you must act as per the compulsion. Suggestion is seriously in the same class of effects as dominate person - it's not a choice that you suddenly want to make, it's something you have to do because magic. Just because suggestion has less "you're my bitch" fluff does not make its effects any more optional. Planar binding is binding, but it is not actually a competing compulsion effect (no tag) and I see no reason anywhere in the SRD to believe the effect of planar binding overwrites compulsion effects - especially since if planar binding overwrites suggestion then it also overwrites dominate effects and that's stupid at first glance. Kaelik, you said a dumb thing.

[Kaelik]

Planar binding is binding, but it is not actually a competing compulsion effect (no tag) and I see no reason anywhere in the SRD to believe the effect of planar binding overwrites compulsion effects - especially since if planar binding overwrites suggestion then it also overwrites dominate effects and that's stupid at first glance. Kaelik, you said a dumb thing.

You should attempt to argue with my actual position instead of the strawman constructed by other people. I never said that suggestion magically doesn't work on Planar Bound creatures, in fact, I specifically gave an example of a suggestion that would work.

What I did say is that the suggestion "stop being compelled" would not work, and that no matter what suggestion you come up with, it will stop preventing them from performing their service in a number of hours, and then they will still have a number of days to continue performing their service, and no use of the suggestion spell can negate the service after suggestion ends.

So in fact, don't attribute what people didn't say to them, that is a dumb thing.