[3.5] Spells that fvck with Logistics and Dragons

[RobbyPants]

The only way to fix magic's impact on economies is to not allow permanent effects.

I could see this as something like "don't let people make permanent iron from walls", or something, but I don't see how it would stop magical fire from heating water to make steam. Once the steam has turned the turbine, it doesn't really matter if it cools super fast after the fact, or not.

[K]

I can't believe that no one has mentioned that wall of fire can be made permanent. Steam engines anyone?

Secondly, the most broken spell is planar binding. There are monsters with powers like at-will fabricate, wall of stone, permanent minor creation, wish, plant growth, and any number of other powers that would be crazy if used to constructive purposes. Hell, even getting a minor angel who can cast continual fire is literally an afternoon's work to turn a culture into one that can work into the night because affordable lighting is now available for all.

[duo31]

Gust of Wind can also be made permanent, so windmills anyone?

[Ice9]

True. That also applies to most other spells that make function calls to the Monster Manual - Shapechange, PaO, etc. Maybe not stuff like Alter Self because I don't think that it can give you anything that special, and Summon Monster would be fine with a few strategic changes to the list.

There's a question though, in what exactly qualifies as fvcking with logistics. There's a few categories:
A) Stuff that makes a post-scarcity society for a one-time investment.
B) Stuff that makes a post-scarcity society when used continually, and can be done by demographically-available mages.
C) Stuff that makes a post-scarcity society if a high-level caster chooses to maintain it on a daily basis.
D) Stuff that doesn't change society, but gives the user a faceroll advantage in mass combat / espionage.
E) Stuff that doesn't change society, but gives the user a huge personal advantage in business.

I would say that you definitely need to get rid of A and B if you want to play Logistics and Dragons. C, D, and E might be undesirable depending on the campaign, but don't inherently ruin it.

[Prak]

That sounds about right. I'm not so worried about "with a high enough level caster" since I'm going with "Humanity only managed to kill enough angels and demons to make them decide to stop the war proper" not "humanity totally won." So there may be a few high level casters around still, but not many.

It's the difference between the US saying "Fuck, it'll cost us too much to build new tanks and ship them here. Alright guys, we're going to sign a cessation to official hostilities, but we all know there will be runs on each others' bases and shit" and the US getting facerolled off your beaches.

[duo31]

The only way to fix magic's impact on economies is to not allow permanent effects.

I could see this as something like "don't let people make permanent iron from walls", or something, but I don't see how it would stop magical fire from heating water to make steam. Once the steam has turned the turbine, it doesn't really matter if it cools super fast after the fact, or not.

Who cares, steams engine are primitive, and do you think that a caster wants to spend all day burning handsing a tank of water?

If you have access to that much water, why not just create a drop, and use gravity to turn the turbines, or dam the water to create a higher flow to turn them?

Hell, just let the Goblinoids just chop down the forest to power their steam engines of war and industry. Cheaper and easier than getting a weak caster to survive into adulthood and then learn magic.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

As K said, you don't cast and recast little spells like Burning Hands. You cast Wall of Fire and then Permanency that shit.