Pathfinder Is Still Bad

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:03 am

Well, since the rules for armor spikes explicitly call them out as weapons AND potential off-hand weapons, the 'unwritten' bullshit is even worse than you think.

PRD wrote:You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.)

The only real caveat to TWF is the 'off hand' does 0.5 Str bonus, and, of course, the lower attack penalties if the weapon is light.

Handed-ness is really weird and not defined beyond 'full strength bonus' or 'half strength bonus.' You can't generally make extra attacks regardless of how many extra arms you have*, but all extra arms I can find reference to (like the alchemist's) are treated as normal arms. If you've got 4 arms and a tentacle, and they all hold short swords and you want to TWF, pick two limbs- one is primary, and one is 'off' and it doesn't seem to matter which is which. The rest do nothing (but you can have a wider variety of weapons armed at once, plus a free hand for spellcasting and a shield, and that can be a big deal.

*barring however the monster feat multiweapon fighting works, but that is a weird-ass can of worms, involving (probably) DM approval and easier requirements.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:48 am

...in other news, Sean K Reynolds started pointing out how butthurt he was of people pointing out the flaws in Pathfinder yet vehemently denying said flaws being issues that need to be fixed. It's kind of sad seeing some people then going on the comforting the little baby with stuff like "it's okay dude, the people whining are just the loud minority who don't know what they're doing" or some shit like that.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:48 am

That reminds me of the SKR pathfinder post where he said something along the lines of: "If you're combining unarmed strikes with natural attacks, you're abusing the syystem!".

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:24 pm

icyshadowlord wrote:...in other news, Sean K Reynolds started pointing out how butthurt he was of people pointing out the flaws in Pathfinder yet vehemently denying said flaws being issues that need to be fixed.

That reminds me of his comment along the lines of: "If one out of every 50 words is a typo, that's a 98% success rate!"

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:17 pm

icyshadowlord wrote:...in other news, Sean K Reynolds started pointing out how butthurt he was of people pointing out the flaws in Pathfinder yet vehemently denying said flaws being issues that need to be fixed. It's kind of sad seeing some people then going on the comforting the little baby with stuff like "it's okay dude, the people whining are just the loud minority who don't know what they're doing" or some shit like that.

Don't forget, that was the community they set out to build for Pathfinder from the beginning- they wanted they 'Hurrah it isn't 4e!' fans and actively discouraged rational criticism. Criticism, after all, is merely a psychological flaw of a negative personality.

magnuskn · Post by **magnuskn** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:22 am

Voss wrote:Don't forget, that was the community they set out to build for Pathfinder from the beginning- they wanted they 'Hurrah it isn't 4e!' fans and actively discouraged rational criticism. Criticism, after all, is merely a psychological flaw of a negative personality.

Man, it must be nice to live so divorced from reality. Have you taken a single look at the forums over the last years?

magnuskn · Post by **magnuskn** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:26 am

By the way, anybody got any thoughts on the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game? It's out soon and going by the preview video I saw ( available here ), I pre-ordered. Any opinions from people who saw that video?

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:26 am

From what I've been reading about it, it sounded like a lot of money (hint: I'm cheap) for a game with not a whole lot of replayability. It's a bit moot for me because I don't do a lot of boardgaming nowadays.

magnuskn · Post by **magnuskn** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:13 pm

hogarth wrote:From what I've been reading about it, it sounded like a lot of money (hint: I'm cheap) for a game with not a whole lot of replayability. It's a bit moot for me because I don't do a lot of boardgaming nowadays.

I'm able to get the base set and character add-on for about 40 Euros from Amazon.co.uk, so it is not that expensive, IMO. Replayability is a definite concern for me, too, though, but we'll see how it shakes out. If it is fun, I'll probably take the suscription for the adventure packs.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:45 pm

magnuskn wrote:
Voss wrote:Don't forget, that was the community they set out to build for Pathfinder from the beginning- they wanted they 'Hurrah it isn't 4e!' fans and actively discouraged rational criticism. Criticism, after all, is merely a psychological flaw of a negative personality.
Man, it must be nice to live so divorced from reality. Have you taken a single look at the forums over the last years?

Yes, from time to time. And it bears my comment out. Hell, this armor spikes thing specifically generated three types of responses:

-wild complaining (which is not rational criticism)

-wild fanboyism (it was obviously right because Paizo said it is)

-and one single instance of rational criticism, asking why and how this decision was made, which SKR specifically responded to with 'well, you have already made up your mind, so I'm not going to bother talking to you anymore.' And he took his ball and went home.

magnuskn · Post by **magnuskn** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:36 pm

There is quite a lot of rational discussion on the forum. Maybe not in every thread, but in a lot of them.

Drachasor · Post by **Drachasor** » Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:40 am

I'd say there are a lot of attempts at rational discussion on the Pathfinder forums. There is some genuine rational discussion as well. I know there was more than one post on TWF that was a rational criticism of the Dev decision (as more than one person did comparisons of damage dealt between different fighting styles).

However, the Devs seem to encourage people to not discuss things rationally most of the time. There are posters that view everything the Devs say as sacrosanct. These posters will be quite inflammatory if you disagree with a Dev decision or how the Devs do things. How do the Devs handle this? They favorite the more inflammatory posts. Encouraging those posters and that sort of behavior makes the Paizo forums worse.

There's quite a bit to reasonably object to as well. Pathfinder uses terms that they never define (like precision damage). And their FAQs often completely disagree with RAW -- yet the Devs act like that's what RAW says. If you note they should errata the text that doesn't say what they want it to, then the Paizo Loyalists will jump all over you -- it does not matter how politely or humbly you state it. And then the Devs favorite those attacks if they are around.

Granted, SKR is a big part of the problem, because he seems to interpret disagreement as a personal attack. The vast majority of the time, SKR will post strawman arguments or just be generally insulting to those that disagree with him. He really has no business being on public forums as an official representative of the company, imho.

The forums are then not moderated well at all. So the net effect of this are forums where things get heated and personal rather quickly. Irrational discussion is (unintentionally) encouraged, so there's quite a lot of that. What rational discussion exists often gets drowned out.

magnuskn · Post by **magnuskn** » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:45 am

I can agree on some of those points. Mods do delete a lot of posts when fights break out, but I also have detected an existing bias towards letting a certain sub-group of posters mostly alone (i.e. Gorbacz, who just makes personal attacks against everybody who dares to criticize Paizo's design decisions, but is still allowed to exist on the forum).

Drachasor · Post by **Drachasor** » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:56 pm

I didn't mean to imply the mods were inactive, merely that the moderation system on the Paizo forums does not produce good results. In part from bias, perhaps. Though they also don't bother informing people of when they've stepped over the line as far as I can tell.

I think part of it is also the whole Edition Wars, which likely makes Pathfinder "Crusaders" advocate for the game too stringently. It probably also affects the mods and Devs.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:11 pm

magnuskn wrote:I can agree on some of those points. Mods do delete a lot of posts when fights break out, but I also have detected an existing bias towards letting a certain sub-group of posters mostly alone (i.e. Gorbacz, who just makes personal attacks against everybody who dares to criticize Paizo's design decisions, but is still allowed to exist on the forum).

It was a great day when someone came up with a Paizo forums Ignore script.

Gorbacz · Post by **Gorbacz** » Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:38 pm

magnuskn wrote:I can agree on some of those points. Mods do delete a lot of posts when fights break out, but I also have detected an existing bias towards letting a certain sub-group of posters mostly alone (i.e. Gorbacz, who just makes personal attacks against everybody who dares to criticize Paizo's design decisions, but is still allowed to exist on the forum).

Glad to see your rampart obsession with my person extend to other corners of the Internet

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:00 am

Speaking of ramparts, anyone know if there's a Pathfinder counterpart to the Stronghold Builder's Guide? I know that a recent book added mass combat and kingdom management, but that isn't specifically pimp-my-fort oriented.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:38 pm

Haha rampart... Well played avorio. In answer to your question: no there isn't.

magnuskn · Post by **magnuskn** » Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:28 pm

hogarth wrote:
magnuskn wrote:I can agree on some of those points. Mods do delete a lot of posts when fights break out, but I also have detected an existing bias towards letting a certain sub-group of posters mostly alone (i.e. Gorbacz, who just makes personal attacks against everybody who dares to criticize Paizo's design decisions, but is still allowed to exist on the forum).
It was a great day when someone came up with a Paizo forums Ignore script.

Indeed. And now I can ignore the idiot on two forums. Woo!

Seriously, that someone had to come up with a script for an ignore function amazes me, why can't the admins add that simple functionality by themselves?

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:15 pm

Where does Paizo get its writers? Behind the dumpster of their local Starbucks?

Yes, I played something idiotic again and need to rant.

Masks of the Living God. You infiltrate a cult. Sound fun. All your gear gets taken away. Ok. You do inconsequential dice rolling until the final encounter get's unlocked after a week of being unable to do anything. Trying to sneak around? Nope, the guards are on high alert. Desinterested, but on high alert. How does that even work? the final encounter? Golem that turns into a swarm for 40 rounds. Have fun kids! Better have an Alchemist or someone with high int who was stupid enough to take Throw Anything for no reason in your party, because that fucker has 42 hp and chipping away 1 point at a time is really fun! Tell your Wizard to go home, since he can't target the golem as long as he is a swarm. Assuming he prepared the spells that would actually debuff that shitfaced waste of time.

What a collossal waste of time, front to back. What the fuck? How does that happen? How in the fuck do people not say "this is bullshit, what the shit?"

It's part 2 of a Trilogy. Part 1 was fun enough, level 1... hey you guys want to fight a shadow? At level 1? Yes? Sure you do! Guess what, he IS incorporeal and fucks up your stats while you try not to choke on the enviroment!

Part 3 was completly miss constructed. One of the first encounters is a large fire elemental. Yeah... That one is great fun at level 4. Assuming you manage to survive that fucker without fire resistance, the followup is a handful skeletons. 4 hp each. After that a bunch of cultists armed with high hopes of being beaten to death by random strangers. Yeah... at least the final encounter is decent. A medusa in a pit of gold shooting lightning in your face, followed by some crazy chick that turns into a HUGE fire elemental. Because you had so much fun with the large one.

My brain hurts. Need to avoid modules. Where did I put the bleach...

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:21 pm

Yeah, that module was totally lame. I ran it for a group that included a new-to-D&D player, and it may have been a major factor in them deciding Tabletop RPGs weren't really their thing. The worst point was the rampant idiocy in the cult's recruitment technique. They were basically jokes from that point onward.

PFRPG modules are definitely a mixed bag, though. I see some pretty cool stuff sometimes.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:28 pm

Now that I had a moment to clear the haze I have no idea how those modules are supposed to be connected, other the one NPC you never meet but get told about leaves a note that basically tells you "harhar, you can find me at the next module, because reasons!" and I have not even the slightest clues what the link from part 1 to part 2 is supposed to be, other then "you are some random guys, doing adventuring".

They just keep telling this is a three part series, but they don't connect that shit in a way that even makes remotly sense.

Oh, I also totaly loved how the cult didn't even pretend they believe their shit. everyone was like "blah, blah, whatever, I'm just here to have a roof over my head/because those guys abducted me and I really don't care either way".

I'm not sure the writer knows how that kind of cult actually works...

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:50 pm

So the level 1 party is somehow expected to go against a swarm, a shadow, a large fire elemental a medusa and then a huge fire elemental?

Looks like a good module to train new players into a learned helplessness mindset.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:01 am

City of Golden Death says it's for level 5 characters.

But it's also set in a special dungeon where the treasure teleports out of your hands when you try to leave.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:13 am

That was something I totally expected. Major Bullshit sense was tingling like crazy and basically exploded once we entered the medusas lair that is basically Scrooge McDucks vault.

Just to clarify what kind of bullshit happens in which module:

Part 1, Crypt of Everflame. Level 1. One (wood?) Golem, one shadow. Rest mostly skellys. One ghul (?) caster of sorts.

Part 2, Masks of the Living Good. Level 3 (2-4). Nothing, followed by more nothing, finally Golem that turns into swarm.

Part 3, City of Golden Death. Level 5 (4-6). Crap Gold Golem, Large Fire Elemental, silly skellys, silly large skellys that watch you while you buff yourself up to onehit them, sillier still cultists (not sure they were even armed), Medusa (Sorcerer I think), followed by bitch that turns into huge fire elemental. After webbing the area you fight in. Can you say flammable? There was also some stupid shit where you roll inconsequential shit to progress, but GM didn't feel like wasting time on that. So no idea what that was about.