What is the biggest debacle of RPG history?

[nockermensch]

The Xenomorph's ovapositor is a sex organ. End of discussion.

Show me any evidence from the first movie that Xenomorphs reproduce sexually. It's an asexual parasite.

So, let's get this straight: If we have a fantasy monster that reproduces by trusting a veiny tube into a hapless victim mouth and injecting spores that will grow inside them, that's not rape as far as you're concerned?

[Username17]

The Xenomorph's ovapositor is a sex organ. End of discussion.

Show me any evidence from the first movie that Xenomorphs reproduce sexually. It's an asexual parasite.

You're still an idiot. The sexual organs are defined as the organs used for reproduction of all complex animals. The ovapositor of a wasp is still its "sex organ" even though it doesn't have sex with other wasps using it.

Sex organs simply doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

constitute the reproductive system in a complex organism

It doesn't makehalf a fuck's worth of difference whether they are having sex with their host, they are still a complex organism and have demonstrable reproductive organs. And those would be called "sex organs" unless and until you could show conclusive evidence that the creature never underwent meiosis or genetic resortment at any point in its life cycle.

Sex organs include flowers and prostates. It's a really big category.

-Username17

[infected slut princess]

So... what exactly is the controversy here?

We can't have a cool monster like a Xenomorph in an RPG because someone might be offended?

That's dumb. Seriously. Fucking. Dumb.

[Username17]

So... what exactly is the controversy here?

We can't have a cool monster like a Xenomorph in an RPG because someone might be offended?

No. The point is you can have stuff like Xenomorphs. Alien is high art. The controversy was that Mguy said that he couldn't imagine anyone being upset or offended by anything in Eberron on the grounds that some of it was "like Alien".

Which is probably the stupidest argument I've ever seen by anyone, because last I checked Alien was high art precisely because it is one of the most transgressive and upsetting films ever made. I actually think that the tentacle rape in Eberron is way less horrifying than Alien, primarily because it's set off in an obscure part of the setting where most people don't even notice it rather than intricately showing a man die in childbirth after being face raped. The point is merely that claiming that something is similar to Alien as evidence that people shouldn't be upset by it is rather missing the point. Rather missing all the points, actually.

-Username17

[Pulsewidth]

If we have a fantasy monster that reproduces by trusting a veiny tube into a hapless victim mouth and injecting spores that will grow inside them, that's not rape as far as you're concerned?

If the resulting offspring receives genetic information from the host, as in Alien 3, then it is rape. "Genetic information" doesn't have to mean DNA, it can be anything that acts in the same way as DNA in sexual reproduction.

If the monster reproduces asexually, using the host as raw material for its offspring, like a virus, then it is not rape. This is the biology presented in Alien 1.

If the monster reproduces sexually like an insect, which is implied by Alien 2, with the spore injection tube working like an insect ovipositor, then the sexual reproduction has already taken place before the spore injection, and it is not rape.

If the tube used for spore injection is also used for sexual reproduction (it's analogous to both an ovipositor and anaedeagus at the same time), which AFAIK does not happen in any real world animal, then it is rape.

If you loosen the definition of rape far enough for all of these to be rape then you couldn't forcibly drug somebody in acute psychosis even if they were an imminent danger to themself or others without it being rape.

[Pulsewidth]

Alien was high art precisely because it is one of the most transgressive and upsetting films ever made. I actually think that the tentacle rape in Eberron is way less horrifying than Alien

It does not require sex to be horrifying. Its overt message is about parasites. Parasites can be even more horrifying than rape, because they can have more insidious horrifying effects such as mind control. All humans have a natural aversion to parasites.

The obsession with hidden meaning is what annoys me most about artistic types. It's already horrifying, they don't need to give it a secret horror subtext that doesn't actually increase the horror level.

[zugschef]

If the resulting offspring receives genetic information from the host, as in Alien 3, then it is rape. "Genetic information" doesn't have to mean DNA, it can be anything that acts in the same way as DNA in sexual reproduction.

If the monster reproduces asexually, using the host as raw material for its offspring, like a virus, then it is not rape. This is the biology presented in Alien 1.

If the monster reproduces sexually like an insect, which is implied by Alien 2, with the spore injection tube working like an insect ovipositor, then the sexual reproduction has already taken place before the spore injection, and it is not rape.

If the tube used for spore injection is also used for sexual reproduction (it's analogous to both an ovipositor and anaedeagus at the same time), which AFAIK does not happen in any real world animal, then it is rape.

If you loosen the definition of rape far enough for all of these to be rape then you couldn't forcibly drug somebody in acute psychosis even if they were an imminent danger to themself or others without it being rape.

I'd like to ask you some questions, if I may...

In general, are you of the opinion that rape victims wouldn't conceive if it was real rape?
Accordingly, is this why you claim that the alien's "birth" isn't preceded by rape?

More specifically, are you Todd Akin?

[shadzar]

biggest debacle... that RPG history devolves into rape....

[Username17]

If the resulting offspring receives genetic information from the host, as in Alien 3, then it is rape.

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[/img]

We already had you quote the FBI definition of Rape. It unsurprisingly has zero percent to do with whether DNA gets exchanged at any point. Sticking your ovapositor in someone's mouth (assuming for the moment that you have one), does in fact meet the legal definition of rape in addition to the metaphorical definition of rape.

It's one thing to be an asshole who runs around harassing people for using metaphor and hyperbole, but in this case you've already been conclusively demonstrated to be literally wrong. So just shut up. Shut. The fuck. Up.

You went out and staked out some dickish and contrarian territory to defend, and you fucking lost. It's over. Walk away while you still have any dignity at all.

-Username17

[Pulsewidth]

In general, are you of the opinion that rape victims wouldn't conceive if it was real rape, which is why you claim that the alien's "birth" isn't preceded by rape?

It doesn't matter if any specific victim can conceive or not. Both definitions quoted require sex or sex organs, and sex is sex regardless of conception. The point is that expanding the definition to not require sex or sex organs dilutes it to the point that things that are obviously not rape are defined as rape. This is a bad thing, in the same way as "crying wolf".

It's over. Walk away while you still have any dignity at all.

OK, you win. I'll walk away and get raped by a botfly ovipositor.

[ishy]

Definitions:

Physically forced or otherwise coerced penetration – even if slight – [ . . . ]using [ . . .] an object

[quote=""Pulsewidth"]If the resulting offspring receives genetic information from the host, as in Alien 3, then it is rape.[/quote]
You'll find that different countries also have different definitions of what legally constitutes as rape. My own for example, basically defines it as, unwanted sexual penetration.
The wikipedia page even lists helpful examples as: French kissing is not rape and forcing your spouse to be penetrated by an animal is rape.
Wikipedia is weird.

[zugschef]

In every modern code of law actual forced sexual intercourse equates forced acts resembling sexual intercourse.

[Pulsewidth]

You snipped the important part of the WHO definition, which is the orifice being penetrated.

All organized combat sports ban "fishhooking" (inserting fingers into the opponent's mouth and attempting to tear their cheek). This isn't banned because it's rape, it's banned because it's unnecessarily damaging and doesn't do much to help win the fight. If somebody does it they have committed a crime, but it's not rape. Fingers are not a sex organ.

The Alien 3 case is rape because the "ovipositor" has become a sex organ. It's now injecting something analogous to sperm, instead of merely a botfly style egg.

[zugschef]

If I fist your unwilling ass, it is rape.

[Pulsewidth]

If I fist your ass, it is rape.

Yes, under both the FBI and the WHO definitions that is rape. However, if you fist my mouth, that is merely assault. And if you stuff a tapeworm egg down my throat, that isn't rape either.

[infected slut princess]

Isn't this dude familiar with the expressions such as "I will rape your face" and "You raped my face."

[Pulsewidth]

Isn't this dude familiar with the expressions such as "I will rape your face" and "You raped my face."

That's generally considered to involve inserting a sex organ. If you mean something like "I overwhelmingly defeated you in a videogame", you are engaging in harmful dilution of the word.

[Whatever]

Pulsewidth, you're an awful person. Rape is horrific, but not because women might lose their virginity (if you even care about whether a woman is a virgin, you're pretty fucked up). Rape is horrible because of the subjective sense of violation felt by the victim, and the way it subverts intimate physical contact into something incredibly traumatizing. Rape isn't about sex, it's about power and control.

Arguing that only certain kinds of rape are "legitimate rape" is not just hugely offensive to victims, but also perpetuates rape culture generally. You're telling rape victims that they weren't actually raped because what happened to them doesn't accord with your biblical understanding of what constitutes sexual violence.

[Pulsewidth]

Arguing that only certain kinds of rape are "legitimate rape" is not just hugely offensive to victims, but also perpetuates rape culture generally. You're telling rape victims that they weren't actually raped because what happened to them doesn't accord with your biblical understanding of what constitutes sexual violence.

This has absolutely nothing to do with religion, it's about meanings of words. The sentence "only certain kinds of rape are "legitimate rape"" makes zero sense, because if something is rape then it's automatically "legitimate rape". But if something does not meet the definition of rape then it is not rape, and attempting to expand the definition can have harmful consequences.

Parasitism is not the same as rape. Forced feeding is not the same as rape. Forced drugging is not the same as rape. Using mind control magic is not the same as rape. Any of these can be as horrifying as rape, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing. If you dilute the meanings of words so much it becomes impossible to discuss the things they originally referred to. This is a bad thing.

[zugschef]

If I fist your ass, it is rape.

Yes, under both the FBI and the WHO definitions that is rape. However, if you fist my mouth, that is merely assault. And if you stuff a tapeworm egg down my throat, that isn't rape either.

Then the FBI and WHO definitions are stupid and ancient as fuck, which doesn't surprise me since we're talking about the FBI and the WHO.

If someone stuffs his fist down unwilling people's mouths, because he thinks he can create life through or gets aroused by that act, then this someone will be accused of rape in Austria, Britain, France, Germany and Sweden.

And I'm absolutely sure that this is the case in most non-European modern democracies (apart from maybe some southern US American redneck states where fucking people with African, Latin or native American heritage against their will is not considered rape, either), as well.

[Whatever]

Preserving the outmoded dictionary definition of a word for all time is more important to me than acknowledging that many forms of sexual violence constitute rape.

Go live in a fire.

[Pulsewidth]

Sex organs include flowers and prostates. It's a really big category.

Forcibly inserting a flower into somebody's mouth is not rape under any reasonable definition. If you define ovipositors to be sexual organs then the only way you can prevent botflys from being rapists is by relying on a special status of the mouth. However, it makes more sense that the mouth is listed only because it's one of the few orifices that is big enough to be penetrated by sexual organs. I don't see how penetrating a mouth is morally any different than penetrating an ear or nose or a hole in the skin. A botfly inserts an ovipositor into an orifice in a person. A botfly is not generally considered to be a rapist. Therefore an Alien 1 xenomorph is not a rapist.

this someone will be accused of rape in Austria, Britain, France, Germany and Sweden.

Under British law, fisting a mouth is not rape, and it is not assault by penetration. It can be sexual assault if you can prove that it was sexual, which would require additional evidence beyond the act itself, because there is nothing inherently sexual about inserting a fist into a mouth. The obvious interpretation is that it is intended to cause pain or injury.

[Pulsewidth]

Preserving the outmoded dictionary definition of a word for all time is more important to me than acknowledging that many forms of sexual violence constitute rape.

Go live in a fire.

The Alien 1 xenomorph is not committing sexual violence and more than a botfly is committing sexual violence.

[infected slut princess]

The Alien 1 facehugger rapes a dude's face. Like, it literally grabs his face and fucks his mouth. In the dude's violent death spasms that eventually result, a monster baby is born.

I must be missing something because I don't know why everyone doesn't just basically agree about that.

I also don't know why anyone disagrees that ALIEN1 is awesome.

[Pulsewidth]

When I watched Alien 1 I watched a movie about a parasite. It was clearly about a creature that reproduced like a botfly. I later discovered that it had a hidden metaphorical meaning of rape, but that does absolutely nothing to change the plain factual meaning that it's about a botfly style parasite. I'm not trying to make a political point about real life rape, I'm trying to get people to accept something literal and obvious. If people won't accept obvious meanings then we have descended into post-modernism and there's no point continuing any discussion because nothing makes sense.