Sci-Fi Brainstorming [Dungeon Crusade 2.0]

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
erik
King
Posts: 5868
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by erik »

Is this really Sci-Fi tho? You don't have high-tech society, since the PCs are strangers in a primitive land. So I don't really cast this as Sci-Fi.

I was picturing DC 2.0 being fantasy but where all the fluff is that the PCs are High Tech. That being the case, rock on d20. Rock on. Displacer Fields, Force fields and Invisibility are already well covered and portable to d20.

So d20 seems like a fine system since you do want your marines to crunch through lesser foes, and you likely aren't as interested in caring about whether mooks can still succeed on a lucky roll.

If you like Frank's notion that one-shotting dragons should be a thing, then you can still get by with massive HP attacks that cause massive damage saves. Perhaps re-tweak the massive damage rules/saves some and you'd be good to go there. I'd think that stronger dragons would not expect to be felled in 1 shot however, since that's a silly design goal.

The only downsides I see for d20 are that handling combat with large amounts of opponents doesn't go smoothly, and skill system. I think the skill system has less weight thankfully since a lot of abilities will be binary, whether you have proper tech or not.

A possible notion: ratchet down damage and hit points. Like seriously, divide by 10. If something can't deal/take 10 damage then it can fuck off. Elder Earth Elementals get 22 Wound Points; Blast him! This could help in speeding up combats to allow for more larger amounts of opponents too.

For the diamond axe vs. ballistics concern, well there isn't a good reason why those two weapons should be comparable. Ballistics have range, often can cover an area (for automatics or energy weapons), but you have limited ammo and in close quarters fighting ballistics may not be as desirable. Perhaps implement a parry mechanic which makes ballistics much less reliable in close quarters if AOOs aren't enough disincentive. That and some weapons can be countered or ablated by energy resistances/immunities, and incorporeals and such are immune to bullets. It is not too hard to create valid reasons to use melee and ranged tech weapons without resorting to soak and dicepoolery.

Now with the apology for d20 aside, is there room for something like Tyranids/Gene Stealers, or do those kind of go with the Warrior Race? Get some biotech jazz going on.

Docs n' Engineers: Not needing a healer but instead using stim packs is a feature, not a failing. I always thought the doctors on star trek were a complete waste. I could see an engineer being viable and happily so. Their unique schtick being repairs/craftguyvering and minions/mechs.

All engineers would be able to repair/modify stuff. Maybe you want to turn that machine cannon into a sniper rifle, or that laser defense grid into a hologram projector, or that biomass into a semi-sentient wheelbarrow. Different strokes for different origins, but they are all experts in keeping equipment in a state of proper repair, especially for their origin.
originEngineerschtick
DeathworldAdeptus Mechanicusservo skull, gives equipment boosts
Warrior RaceBrood Queenhatches biotech like zergling bombs
MechanicalDrone Hiverobot swarm
UbermenschOperatorrobot minion, portal pistols
DaemonWarp Priestboost equipment with infernal, summon demons

[edit: post needed tweaking. A dozen disjointed 1 sentence paragraphs was kinda hard to follow. some thoughts added]
Last edited by erik on Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13977
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

Well, Dungeon Crusade (the first) wasn't Sci-Fi. But a big part of that is that Warhammer 40,000 is not Sci-Fi. It's nuclear-powered Fantasy. It might sound like sci-fi: there are space ships (that don't play much of a part in the story and don't really engage in spaceship combat, instead you board them and do dungeoncrawling), there are laser guns (with their range of "I could instead charge and use it as a club"), there are robots (that are remarkably similar to basic undead), and so on.

The fact is, 40k actually is a Fantasy thing that happens to be set in an entire galaxy and some of the scenery elements are dressed up as sci-fi. That's a large part of why I liked it: I don't like Star Wars or Star Trek and can't be convinced to give Babylon 5, Stargate or whatever a try, but on the other hand I loved the SLA industries thing where they can go and turn a barren world into a metropolis planet in like a week, set up multi-level city sprawls, put in a weird system that sounds like a future utopia (but made to sound like a dystopia), and then all the fighting happens with throwing knives and vibro-scythes.

And that actually brings me to a thought, now that an appeal to my ego has been made: I liked the bit where someone could just pick up their Forgotten Realms adventure and let the PCs reduce it to molten slag (and let's face it, if you tell players "you get to literally nuke Elminster's house, and drive a tank through the underdark until you obliterate Drizzle", players will be bidding sexual favours to be let in).

But if we accept that it can't be done, and cut the d20 stuff away and just make it its own thing... well, yes, the core concept there changes, but the basic story doesn't. It just involves a different system and not advertising it as "space guys land in D&D land", instead advertising it as being "like Avatar if Avatar weren't shit" or whatever. And having mentioned SLA industries, that's an example of things I like.

Having given my opinion on dice pools, I'd still not do that. But I could probably borrow elements from SLA for building the basic thing up. Maybe not the 2d10 thing, because we all understand how vile a ten-sided die is, but going with a skill-based thing where your skills really do determine everything you do, rather than chucking BAB and Base Save Bonuses in.

I still really like different things actually having different amounts of hit points, it's fun to see "Ben the Chump: 1 box (or 3 HP)" and "Armadax the Devourer: 30 boxes (or 457 HP)" and to go "okay I rolled... eight trillion damage". But that's just something I like, and by not having the game be printed on the corpse of Rupert Murdoch, I'm already leaving out some things I personally like. Doing the thing with the old CAN system, if anyone remembers that, can work just fine.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

Erik wrote:If you like Frank's notion that one-shotting dragons should be a thing, then you can still get by with massive HP attacks that cause massive damage saves. Perhaps re-tweak the massive damage rules/saves some and you'd be good to go there. I'd think that stronger dragons would not expect to be felled in 1 shot however, since that's a silly design goal.

The only downsides I see for d20 are that handling combat with large amounts of opponents doesn't go smoothly, and skill system. I think the skill system has less weight thankfully since a lot of abilities will be binary, whether you have proper tech or not.

A possible notion: ratchet down damage and hit points. Like seriously, divide by 10. If something can't deal/take 10 damage then it can fuck off. Elder Earth Elementals get 22 Wound Points; Blast him! This could help in speeding up combats to allow for more larger amounts of opponents too.
The math is unsurprisingly a lot more complicated than that. No one has ever come up with satisfying gun rules for D&D, or any d20 variant, and that's not surprising.

The issue isn't that hit points are too bloated, it's that they don't scale up fast enough! If you simply use scaling hit points to determine whether an enemy can be one-shotted or not, then you need to more than double hit points just to keep an enemy from being a "two shot" problem. When you have weapons that range from "a very sharp knife" to "an orbital mass driver strike", and enemies that each is appropriate to use against, you're going to find that you're going to need a lot more scaling than D&D does.
[img]data:image/jpeg;base64,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[/img][img]data:image/jpeg;base64,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[/img]

D&D attempts to limit hit point scaling from the four, five, and six digits that exponentials would rapidly take them to by simultaneously scaling Armor Class and DR. I don't think I have to remind you how unsatisfying and ineffective that is when the weapons being trotted out are plasma blasters, gatling lasers, and lightning cannons.

What you want is some linearization of an exponential. Where unsoaked force X does 1 damage and unsoaked force 2X does considerably more than 2 damage. Because that way you can make the shift of goblins to ogres, ogres to ettins, ettins to dragons, dragons to kraken, kraken to nightshades, and nightshades to landscape covering dragons through repeated addition rather than repeated multiplication.

Image
We're going to need a fundamentally logarithmic scaling to keep the numbers involved from being unmanageably high. Also bigger guns.

-Username17
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13977
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

It also occurs to me that taking it out of D&D does flat-out allow for monsters that are bigger than a family van. Like, a giant that can't see the party because the clouds are around its waist.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
User avatar
Judging__Eagle
Prince
Posts: 4671
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Lake Ontario is in my backyard; Canada

Post by Judging__Eagle »

This is mostly for Koumei to help get over the whole "I don't wanna Shadowrun".

You actually already have. Like, a lot. You already know how the engine works, and have worked with even more complicated than Shadowrun engines successfully for years.

Every time you picked up a bucket of dice for your Sororitas' ranged attacks, and saved the dice that rolled 3+; then rolled those for damage, you were basically doing Dice Pools, the exact same way that Dice Pools are generally used; for attacks.

Likewise with armour saves vs Wounds. You just counted the ones that hit 3+, and discarded the rest.

Dice pools are easier to calculate than dice + modifier in lots of ways I've found.

One idea that comes to mind would be to use a basic stat array; almost like a Warhammer one; and the value represents how many dice a single creature rolls; with fixed target numbers.


I'm also realizing that this project is similar to how D&D was first made as an "different" tactical game based off of Chainmail; except that you're using 40k, and it's inspirations (such as Dune), making it possibly better (Dune), but also possibly worse (d6th Ed. 40k).

Also, some sort of table top game where players control not squads of units, but instead a handful of units, and they each represents a 'squad' would be interesting. I'm borrowing from how many current FPS games work (not many units per match, vehicles are fien); and the fact that handling lots of minis is one of the larger time wasters of tabletop games.

If in a tabletop game an army of "30 imperial guardsmen, plus 1-3 vehicles" is considered a 'massive army'; and 4-8 "spazz merengies/bolter bitches/liverpudian Nobz" could be considered 'normal' would play much faster.
The Gaming Den; where Mathematics are rigorously applied to Mythology.

While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13977
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

JE: actually, 40k uses 1d6 for each action - you need a 7+ to hit with all shooting, on 1d6+BS, for instance. You need a 0+ to not die, on 1d6-Sv.

But while I totally get how SR works in the sense of "for any action you grab a bucket of six-sided dice and roll it, and you count up every 5+ and tally those". But actually determining Initiative, and precisely what is rolled against what, that's another matter. To put it another way, "d20 involves rolling a d20 and adding a number", but that isn't 100% of the mechanics as that statement alone doesn't tell you what your BAB is or where it comes into play, or what the skill limits are or how ability scores interact with things.

So for this thing, we'll go with players rolling a set number of dice with a variable bonus added, and with a standardisation of what the difficulties will be on non-opposed tests (Easy/Medium/Hard/Extreme DC values). I guess characters will have attributes which can largely be used to determine what you have to roll against to hit someone (so let's say they rolled 2d8, shooting someone is 2d8+SHOOTERY skill, and the target is 9+SMALLNESS stat). The skills will be what actually matter for when you decide to roll something though.

Players will have their races they can pick off a list, and although it might affect their attributes and skills, the main thing it does is determine what training packages they can take. Because as a military thing, you actually have people being recruited and trained up in specific roles, so people will indeed say "Go talk to the Jedi Knight" or "stop, this area is for Predators only".

I'm happy with the idea of damage rolls being similar to CAN (or indeed, similar to the Soak thing of the dice pool games, but without a dice pool). Probably the tried and true 1, 3, 6, 10, Splat.

There will be some proper nailing down of the Logistics and Dragons, because establishing mining rights and trading with people and introducing space capitalism and representative democracy to feudal bronze age people sounds fun (never mind bringing space socialism and offloading of labour to unthinking, unfeeling automata so that everyone with thoughts can actually live off that labour). Likewise, gaining technical knowledge so that characters can go "well, I know how to actually make a monomolecular wire reel cannon, but not the resources. But I could actually make some pistols and bullets, given a few weeks." and then show the world how to make guns and regret it within the end of the season.

For the scale of weaponry, if someone had access to the orbital ion cannon that literally had only a single shot for the entire game ever (using it blows the internal power source out to the extent that you'd basically need to build and deploy another one, good luck with that), then it's okay if that actually does level a city or one-shot the dragon of your choice. But for things which have even just a handful of shots, I wouldn't want each of those artillery plasma shells taking out the boss of a major mission/story arc, instead obliterating significant forces of tiny men, creating an excellent entry point in the walled city for your army, or doing good damage to the hydra so that you have better chances against it.

I kind of get the feeling such a game would benefit from having loads of skills such that no one starting PC is going to have the full set even at the "jack-off of all trades" level.
Last edited by Koumei on Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

Koumei wrote:JE: actually, 40k uses 1d6 for each action - you need a 7+ to hit with all shooting, on 1d6+BS, for instance. You need a 0+ to not die, on 1d6-Sv.
No, Judging Eagle is right. Actions are resolved by rolling a pile of d6s against a variable target number. When your squad of Bolter Marines fires on a target, you roll 10 dice against a target number of 3 and get one hit per die that comes up 3+. But if the same squad of Bolter Marines fires at short range, you roll 20 dice. The number of dice in your pool is certainly related to the number of models in it, but when you start having weapons like Splinter Cannons, the relationship is nothing like linear.

Regardless, while a dicepool system can be made that varies number of dice rolled, number of hits needed, chance of getting a hit per die and more the way 40k does, that is unnecessarily complicated. Going to fixed target number makes things a fuck tonne easier.

Which is JE's point: if you can figure out how things work in 40K, you can design for a tabletop dicepool system. Because 40K is a tabletop dicepool system that has more fiddly bits than it needs.

-Username17
violence in the media
Duke
Posts: 1730
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:18 pm

Post by violence in the media »

It sounds like what Koumei really needs is a simple way to convert d20 monsters to her thus-far-undeveloped Dungeon Crusade system.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

violence in the media wrote:It sounds like what Koumei really needs is a simple way to convert d20 monsters to her thus-far-undeveloped Dungeon Crusade system.
Well sure, but you'd also really love to have a simple way to convert all the equipment in the 240 page GURPS Ultratech book. Or everything from Shadowrun Arsenal. Or everything from every other science fiction equipment book ever made. Wishes and horses.

As it happens though, you don't need to have the fantasy monsters show up at a terribly high resolution. You can have a couple of monster types and a number of tiers, and just slot the monsters in. If they have some sort of signature ability, have them keep it, but the differences in stats between a Fire Giant and a Sand Giant simply do not seem worth tracking. It's a level 10 Large Sized Giant with Fire Immunity, what more do you need to know?

-Username17
violence in the media
Duke
Posts: 1730
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:18 pm

Post by violence in the media »

I was just thinking that she wanted to preserve some sort of reference scale that corresponded somewhat to D&D. So that she could look at a given monster or character and measure it's "level" or "toughness" in relation to something like Specters and Glabrezu, without her system inadvertently making Specters more threatening than Glabrezu somehow.

How big of a difference between fantasy monsters is big enough to preserve? If it isn't Fire Giant to Sand Giant, is it Ogre to Hill Giant? What about Wyvern to Dragon?
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

violence in the media wrote:I was just thinking that she wanted to preserve some sort of reference scale that corresponded somewhat to D&D. So that she could look at a given monster or character and measure it's "level" or "toughness" in relation to something like Specters and Glabrezu, without her system inadvertently making Specters more threatening than Glabrezu somehow.
Considering that Glabrezu die when they are killed and Spectres do not, I am pretty sure that Spectres are more threatening than Glabrezu. Glabrezu are really strong and have nasty crab claws, but basically you shoot them with a gyrojet pistol and they die. I really have no idea what you need to do to kill Spectres. Lasers? Radiation beams?

-Username17
User avatar
Judging__Eagle
Prince
Posts: 4671
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Lake Ontario is in my backyard; Canada

Post by Judging__Eagle »

Koumei:

Yeah, I know how 40k action resolution works, the target numbers for shooting, wounding and melee slide around based on who's doing the shooting, weapon strength vs creature's toughness, and comparison of weapon skill between meleeing creatures.

At one point in time, players had to do the same even for armour saves (which, thankfully, got removed in post-2e 40k, and replaced with the AP weapon stat).

I was making the example that you know that your Bolter Bitches need a 3+ to hit with guns; while some other player has to figure out and know on their own that their Ork Liverpudlians or Imp Guards need a 5+ to hit with guns.

Likewise, you know how to figure out the sliding scales of S vs T, and WSattacker vs WSdefender.

The fact that you've figured it out how the "sliding scale" for attacking and damage means that a 'simpler' "static target number" engine is not just possible for you to use; but actually easier to use than systems you have tons of familiarity with.


As for skill lists; I'd suggest handling the specializations as just that, specializations.

A list of 20 'Action Skills', like After Sundown uses, is really better than going the other way and having lists of skills no one is going to remember or recall.

With a short list of actual skills, you could specifically write lists for each skills 'known' specializations.

This will also let you control things so that you don't have certain attributes end up being wonky or lopsided skill loadouts, the way that most systems with lots of skills tend to do, where some attributes simply give more bang for their buck.

If you really want, you could also include "Sub-Specializations" that unlock a specific thing within a specialization. So the "Research" skill: Gravitonics has sub-specializations of: Physical, Social and Technical (yes, the sup-specializations can be recursive/referential to the three overarching skill groups; keeping things simple is better than making things complicated).

If you structure things well, you could have more potential skills that any creature could have than any other published rpg system in existence; and at the same time have it scaffolded so rigidly that you could have a first time player able to know all of their options in the first few minutes of reading the Skills section.

After Sundown's basic skill list is 21 skills in 3 groups; and each can easily have 4 science fantasy specializations that you pre-establish; which have 3 types of the pre-established sub-specializations that specializations can have.

Resulting in 84 specialized skills, and 252 sub-specializations.

Honestly, I might even go that route for my own remix/hack of After Sundown.
The Gaming Den; where Mathematics are rigorously applied to Mythology.

While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13977
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

FrankTrollman wrote:Which is JE's point: if you can figure out how things work in 40K, you can design for a tabletop dicepool system. Because 40K is a tabletop dicepool system that has more fiddly bits than it needs.
That is true, I could make one. But knowing "you roll a pile of d6" doesn't mean I know the specifics of the system to just plug straight in, so some amount of "making it up myself" is going to be involved. And at the end of the day, I don't like dice pools.

I'm not sure where that feeling originated - it might be a White Wolf thing, and I don't know if there's a way for people to just change their mind about their opinions or their recognised irrational feelings. Maybe there's someone who did a psyche major who can answer that.

But in the meantime, "I have ten ranks and still sometimes fail to tie my shoelaces" isn't going to happen. Indeed I really like the SLA industries method, where as soon as you get 9 ranks (which is doable but requires a decent investment), you literally can't fail, and as soon as you have any training, you will on average pass a standard task. So that's the direction I'd like to take. If I need to make any base system up at all, I may as well start with stuff I prefer.

Does the "attributes are just your passive defences" thing sound acceptable? Or should skills be unable to surpass them or something? It'd be nice to do away with them altogether and just use the skills, but honestly, having a number that you don't need to put ranks in that determines how well you resist being shot in the face seems like a big deal. No-one should have to learn "Toughness" as a skill.

I'm fine with not falling into the EP trap where you have twelve different weapon skills, and just have "Close Combat" and "Firearms" (and sometimes you'll be making "attacks" with the Piloting or Engineering skills). But there should be a bunch of skills used for talking with people, and a few different sciences/crafting skills and such. Languages can seriously be the D&D deal where they're one-rank skills, you either have them or you don't (or two-rank things: Don't Understand -> Can Get By -> Speak Fluently, and the second rank lets you more or less understand related languages as though you had one rank).
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
User avatar
OgreBattle
King
Posts: 6820
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:33 am

Post by OgreBattle »

FrankTrollman wrote: Because 40K is a tabletop dicepool system that has more fiddly bits than it needs.

-Username17
How would you do a tabletop battle game of the scope of 40k?
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13977
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

Probably in a way more similar to Epic, where a whole unit of men or squadron of tanks is treated as one thing, and potentially with resolving the Hit+Wound+Save thing all in one roll, not even on a "per weapon" basis.

Anyway, back on the brainstorming thing, characters get certain equipment based on their training package, and other stuff based on "you can choose from _____", then more based on simply finding things throughout the game. But certain equipment you can literally only get by either starting as (character type) or stealing/looting it from (character type) at the base. Some amount of skill training will also come automatic with the training packages, but ultimately anyone can learn any skills.

The odd one out here would be the special powers of the psychic warriors and weird psychics (and certain racial powers/abilities that might be relevant). That seems like stuff you'd just have, and other people flat-out can't have. It's probably okay to effectively balance it with equipment - they're not starting with portable artillery and power armour and force fields, and their psi-focus helm that lets them cause macro-implosions will burn out after one use, and they don't have much spice and will eventually need to rely on old spice and basic abilities.

Does that seem reasonable?

And seriously, what categories do we want for the weapons? For melee we have a few possibilities:
  • Mono-edge (massive damage and ignores armour, breaks with one use)
  • Shocking (damage, potential stunning (is there a better name for the "falls onto the ground in spasms" electric shocks can cause?) and eventually running out of power)
  • Vibro-blades (as above, but no shocking and more piercing/bleeding)
  • Blast-hammers (only a few uses for big damage)
  • Diamond-Edge (lasts forever, more damaging than local crap)
  • Ultra-thin syringes with ultra-lethal toxins (even if the syringe doesn't break with one use, there's only enough InstaDeath (TM) for one jab)
And for ranged weapons, do we want lasers, plasma bursts, lightning guns, microwave beams, particle accelerators*, railguns, conventional bullets and artillery shells, missiles, tiny needles with deadly toxins, sprays of acid/napalm/toxic gas?

*I can't tell you what this would actually do
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

Koumei wrote:That is true, I could make one. But knowing "you roll a pile of d6" doesn't mean I know the specifics of the system to just plug straight in, so some amount of "making it up myself" is going to be involved. And at the end of the day, I don't like dice pools.
No one is saying you have to do dicepools, only that you can. I would also accept rolling d100s and adding modifiers, with success being any three digit number (so the universal TN is 100), and degree of success being delivered by taking the last two digits. That would give you a chance of success equal to your modifiers and deliver a very simple way of doing opposed tests or measuring degree of success. Having a good way of measuring degree of success is vital, because you're going to want damage to be determined in a non-linear way by degree of success.
Koumei wrote:Anyway, back on the brainstorming thing, characters get certain equipment based on their training package, and other stuff based on "you can choose from _____", then more based on simply finding things throughout the game. But certain equipment you can literally only get by either starting as (character type) or stealing/looting it from (character type) at the base. Some amount of skill training will also come automatic with the training packages, but ultimately anyone can learn any skills.
You're probably going to want to have an at least semi-random pile of equipment in the crashed ship on start. That way people will end up having some of the cooler but "not worth it" equipment. Players are really adverse to buying things with extremely limited numbers of charges, giving them out "for free" would be helpful.
koumei wrote:And seriously, what categories do we want for the weapons?
Well, you got Fire, Electricity, Explosions, Radiation, Lasers, Poison, Super Sharpness, and just Hitting Very Hard. You might want Freeze Rays and Absolute Zero Bombs and shit that do Cold Damage. Fuck, let's just say you do. Actual weapons can be bombs, melee weapons, mines, missiles, guns, or fields.

So basically you have three categories of wearing out, nine types of damage, and 6 different equipment types. You can also fiddle with accuracy and rate of fire and stuff to make even more things. You don't have to put something in every box, though you could, and that would give you 162 weapons ranging from the Taser Glove to the Gravity Harness.

-Username17
Grek
Prince
Posts: 3117
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:37 pm

Post by Grek »

Unless you're going to have the mono-edge weapons be monomolecular cheese wire swords, you can probably fold them in with the diamond weapons. That way you start out with an impossibly sharp, ultra-hard sword that eventually goes dull and then is 'merely' unbreakable. If you are going to go for the cheese wire option, you want them to be like the variable blades in Known Space. The big deal with those isn't that they're stupidly sharp, but rather that the blade on one is invisible to the naked eye and of variable length. Actually, you probably want to steal a bunch of stuff from Niven. Add in tasp guns, disintegration charges (originally intended for mining! pinky promise!), hover bikes and expensive life extending drugs.

I'm not entirely sold on those damage types and think you can probably do better. Fire, for example, doesn't do anything that couldn't be described as Radiation, Lasers or Explosions. And Lasers can pretty much all be described as a Heat Ray, Freeze Ray, Disintegrator Ray or some other Adjective Ray. If I were making the list, it would be: Heat, Electricity, Psychic, Cold, Sharpness, Explosions, Poison, Radiation, Disintegration and Boring. Boring damage doesn't get special weapons, that's for mundane swords and shit.

Weapon type also has some issues. Mines shouldn't be a separate class from Bombs, since the players are going to want to be using one as the other pretty much constantly. The distinction between a gun and a missile isn't as important as the distinction between a weapon that lets you mow down a pile of orcs and a weapon that lets you take out a single dragon. These get replaced with Anti-Infantry and Anti-Armour weapons instead. Melee is fine. Fields are also fine, but could probably do with being renamed since that's also going to include "fields" of poison gases, napalm or automatic turrets spraying bullets everywhere. For the sixth type, go with Rays, in order to cover lasers, monomolecular wires and anything else that produces a straight line that gets waved through people to kill them.
Chamomile wrote:Grek is a national treasure.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

I think Fire brings a lot to the table, because it's "sticky". You catch a man on fire and he keeps burning. So Acid Bombs are basically Fire Damage, for example.

OgreBattle wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote: Because 40K is a tabletop dicepool system that has more fiddly bits than it needs.

-Username17
How would you do a tabletop battle game of the scope of 40k?
Well, 40K can't decide what scope it's actually supposed to be on. If you want to give a shit about individual guys, you should do that and not get your panties in a twist about squad coherence. If you want to field piles of guys in sufficient numbers that super heavy tanks make any sense, you should stop worrying about which guy is holding the flame thrower.

Basically, option 1 is that you go "like Necromunda, but bigger and more streamlined" and all the guys move and shoot independently. Option 2 is that you go "like Hordes of the Things, but with more minutiae" and you straight up stop pretending that individual models represent individual people.

-Username17
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13977
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

Yeah, d100 roll-over-100 seems like a good way to go. Degrees of success are important for this thing, and could occur at 110, 120, 130 and so on, which is a nice simple way of tracking them.

What would be the best way to handle the actual skill ratings? Giving people a pool of a thousand points and telling them to divide the points up involves telling someone there's a noticeable difference between 71 and 72 and keeping a straight face while doing so. Giving out training levels in batches of 10% or 20% or whatever is a lot less fiddly bullshit for players, though it does leave the question of "so why aren't we just dividing everything by ten and rolling 1d10?"
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
User avatar
Chamomile
Prince
Posts: 4632
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 10:45 am

Post by Chamomile »

I see two reasons not to divide everything by 10.

1) Because you plan on having tons of fiddly little +1 and +2 bonuses that can add up to some actually significant number.

2) Because you're going to divide by 20 instead and make it a d20 roll-over-20 system. Or any other number that just isn't 10.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

There are lots of reasons not to divide everything by ten. The first is that the English language discusses probability almost exclusively in terms of percent. People whose native language is English have a visceral feel for what "sixty percent" means in a way that they don't when you talk about "three fifths" or "six tenths", even though that is the same thing. Use breeds familiarity, and the English language uses percents more than all other forms of odds ratios combined.

Another is that by having a finer RNG you can add tangible advancement without breaking things. With a d10 you have the choice of handing out useless XPs that players can save up and buy big bonuses with, or of handing out bonuses that break the game. But with a percentile system, you can give tangible advancement of like 1% or 2% over and over again without breaking the number generator. Players can get "real" advancement every adventure or even every session and the game won't implode.

But under no circumstances should you give people a thousand points to buy skills with. That shit is fucked.

-Username17
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13977
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

That's a good point, "buy skills in lumps of _____" at the start, and then spending XP individually on increasing it wherever they like. People like spending XP and increasing (stuff) each session.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Almaz
Knight
Posts: 411
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:55 pm

Post by Almaz »

FrankTrollman wrote:I think Fire brings a lot to the table, because it's "sticky". You catch a man on fire and he keeps burning. So Acid Bombs are basically Fire Damage, for example.

OgreBattle wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote: Because 40K is a tabletop dicepool system that has more fiddly bits than it needs.

-Username17
How would you do a tabletop battle game of the scope of 40k?
Well, 40K can't decide what scope it's actually supposed to be on. If you want to give a shit about individual guys, you should do that and not get your panties in a twist about squad coherence. If you want to field piles of guys in sufficient numbers that super heavy tanks make any sense, you should stop worrying about which guy is holding the flame thrower.

Basically, option 1 is that you go "like Necromunda, but bigger and more streamlined" and all the guys move and shoot independently. Option 2 is that you go "like Hordes of the Things, but with more minutiae" and you straight up stop pretending that individual models represent individual people.

-Username17
I feel there are important variations here, since like, Dawn of War II takes the Necromunda option (all the individual guys matter) except only with hero characters. Support characters do exist, but they are entirely adjuncts to the squad leaders. This simultaneously gives you the feel of "marshalling forces of semi-nameless dudes" while at the same time focusing in on the heroes. Except it plays much more fast and loose with squad coherency even if all your guys move together. I feel it's a pretty good solution, whereas a full-on "every single model has its own unique special snowflake characterization, even the grunts" also has its appeal, and yet the two games are at similar scales.

They definitely pick a direction and go for it, though, rather than waffling. Or at least, they did in II, whereas I was a standard RTS (and thus was entirely large-scale). That direction was the somewhat odd "your grunts are equipment for your heroes" but it was a direction.
Last edited by Almaz on Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13977
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

So proper work on it might start on Wednesday, that being my day off, but for now, I think character creation would look a bit like this:

1. Race (certain racial traits gained)
2. Training Package (certain equipment gained, and some skills gained at the 40-50% mark)
3. Spend a number of +10 upgrades, including taking skills up from zero. Put a cap on what players can start with for any given skill, with the understanding that you can totally get to 100 and beyond through advancement in play.
4. Name, personality quirks and so on.
5. The random generation of stuff that survived the crash-landing. Players can divide it however they like, including "let's set X stuff aside for later".

The MC should definitely make maps of places beforehand, because "We're going in THIS direction!" is going to happen, and players should expect to go wandering about, mapping stuff out at their end and scrounging for stuff. And it helps if they're not just finding whatever the MC wants them to find next but are actually going around discovering stuff as it has been placed.

That said, having random generation of "what is in the ground where they're digging" is probably a plus. It might be unfair to expect multi-layer mapping of an entire planet before the game even starts, so while you'd want to know ahead of time that a given mine is there and contains X and is visited by the nearby Y, it's okay for "We're digging in this spot here" to be followed by rolling on the "Is it dirt or diamonds?" table.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
User avatar
Chamomile
Prince
Posts: 4632
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 10:45 am

Post by Chamomile »

A method of random generation for what the players find would also be useful, for GMs who are too lazy to plan things out in advance. From the player's end, random generation and a GM putting down whatever seems cool during his prep work will probably seem pretty much identical anyway.
Post Reply