D&DNext: Playtest Review

[Previn]

I have to admit that I'd be impressed if you came up with a version of D&D that was more profitable than D&D Next (which is what "better" means from a corporate standpoint).

I'm sure many people could create one that would [sell?] better if Hasbro were selling it.

Personally, my experience tells me that the quality of a game's rules is pretty far down the list of things that affect its profitability.

Sadly this is often true. Though a good ruleset can carry a game exceptionally far. Looking at what else seems to effect TTRPG profitability:

Playerbase - 5e is trying to recapture player base that doesn't want or need it.

Art - Pathfinder blows the vast majority of D&D art out of the water. 5e doesn't even really have art that we've seen, baring the terribly bad halfling concept art.

Cool Setting - The old standbys (Faerun, Greyhawk) aren't going to cut it for a core campaign setting in 5e. I think Eberron while cool isn't a robust enough setting, nor is it generic enough.

I'm really not sure what they're actually going to try and sell 5e on, because it doesn't have anything but the D&D name going for it right now. In fact I'd bet money that the latest playtest preview cost them potential players/buyers.

[Voss]

Indications are (such as the Sundering adventure at GenCon this weekend) is they're going to at least partially move it on the basis of the Forgotten Realms.

And unabashedly zapping the 4e changes out of existence.

[fectin]

Is there a short (a few sentences) summary of what 4E did with FR, or is it an overall agglomeration of stupid?

[Corsair114]

Is there a short (a few sentences) summary of what 4E did with FR, or is it an overall agglomeration of stupid?

Mystara caught the idiot ball and turned around so her bitterest enemies could shank her to death causing the spellweave to blow up and crash a parallel plane known as Abeir into the Realms in order to sanitize the setting of any and all Middle and Far East influence that was present while creating a stopgap excuse for the sudden appearance of Dragonborn everywhere.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I don't understand why these guys decided to be such assholes about even describing their characters. It's a fucking public playtest. I really couldn't even watch the fucking thing. How do they not understand that they are broadcasting a limited timeframe at their audience and they don't have time to be disruptive assholes?

Because to some people, 'high level' means roleplaying being a confrontational asshole and getting away with it. Seriously. Read Knights of the Dinner Table sometimes.

If I was roleplaying the quest-giver and I wasn't the DM I would seriously think about backstabbing those twits. I mean, would you trust a highly sensitive and delicate mission that could get you executed as a traitor if it fails to those jerks?

[Voss]

I don't understand why these guys decided to be such assholes about even describing their characters. It's a fucking public playtest. I really couldn't even watch the fucking thing. How do they not understand that they are broadcasting a limited timeframe at their audience and they don't have time to be disruptive assholes?

Because to some people, 'high level' means roleplaying being a confrontational asshole and getting away with it. Seriously. Read Knights of the Dinner Table sometimes.

If I was roleplaying the quest-giver and I wasn't the DM I would seriously think about backstabbing those twits. I mean, would you trust a highly sensitive and delicate mission that could get you executed as a traitor if it fails to those jerks?

I certainly would have turned on them as the DM, especially at the 'if you don't show me the money, I will call you a liar to your face.' (to the high level blackguard explicitly described as being both honorable and touchy) As the cleric or wizard player, I would have made an offered, because that sort of stupid is going to get the party into all sorts of terrible crap.

I think the DM gritted his teeth (he was certainly unamused at several points) and just pushed on because that was seriously their job for the day, but it was still a poor show all around.

At the very least I would have had the guy call on the cleric's loyalty, and butchered the half orc and the fighter on the spot (since they were in his keep, surrounded by his guards and pet wizard), or at least ambushed them during their 5 hour wait for their ambush. Time to roll up new characters, guys. Don't be assholes to people that run an entire rebel movement, and are personally powerful fuckers in their own right.

Is there a short (a few sentences) summary of what 4E did with FR, or is it an overall agglomeration of stupid?

There is a lot of stupid, even worse than the 1e->2e Avatar crisis crap.

Basically somewhere in the fluff, Toril (the name of the actual planet) was actually 'Abeir-Toril.' And somehow during the 4e cataclysm event (spellplague), not only did a lot of weird cursed magic happen (giving people one off feat powers called spellscars), but bits of Abeir replaced parts of Toril (mostly the parts that were essentially real world equivalents in parts of the Realms that no one cared about, like the not-Egypt, not-Mesopotamia and so on in the southeast.) And floating sky-islands also happened, because people still love Jorune even if no one really remembers it anymore.

The new event, the Sundering, basically takes all of that and says NO.

Not sure what will happened to all the gods that died because Sune fucked Torm instead of Tyr, or whatever the hell that divine soap-opera shit was.

[shadzar]

Guy's legit favorite edition is 2nd edition.

Mearls wouldnt understand a game of 2nd edition if it bit him in the ass and threw dragonbewbs in his face.

Mearls fucked up playing the original Red Box when he started his shit about melding the editions in his L&L articles.

[Voss]

Good thing his understanding of 2nd edition is completely unrelated to 'playing the Red Box.'

[shadzar]

the point being, he NEVER played TSR editions correctly or understood what they did, so in no way can try to design around them.

Is it even possible to give consent to their contract solely by watching this podcast?

if you watch these things on youtube, then that bit about the playtest agreement is in violation of youtube, policies, not to mention there is nothing about the playtest agreement on the youtube account or the videos. it is pretty much like the EULA for software that says you must agree to it before opening the software, and the terms are only available to read AFTER you ahve opened it and agreed to it.

those were thrown out of court quickly to.

[Corsair114]

"A dwarf in a steel top hat and steel tuxedo called MC Killzalot, the most famous dwarven rapper who's on the skids after a disastrous attempt at a prog rock album. Oh, his class is Fighter." ~Mike Mearls, head designer of Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition introducing his character.

Next guy to introduce his character introduces it as "Ozu the Half-Orc mercenary... class undisclosed."



This already feels like it's going to be a long painful watch.

[name_here]

"Class undisclosed" is an actual thing we do around here with games expected to dissolve into intra-party combat on purpose. It is not, however, suited to a publicity event.

[Corsair114]

"Class undisclosed" is an actual thing we do around here with games expected to dissolve into intra-party combat on purpose. It is not, however, suited to a publicity event.

That makes sense to me on both accounts.

I'm just about 7 minutes into the video and Mearl's exposition/monologue about his Dwarf rapper is getting to be pretty irritating. I pity the DM at this point. :/

[Lago PARANOIA]

Well, Rodney Thompson is the second-lowest man on the totem pole (except for Chris Sims, who was fired less than a year after 4E D&D was released) and he's playing a game with his boss so that's to be expected.

When WotC does playtest results like this, they seriously should not have people at different positions in the hierarchy playing at the same time. Meaning that Mike Mearls should either grab a bunch of people not working on 5E D&D or he should butt out.

[nockermensch]

Thanks, Corsair, I needed a new .sig

[Corsair114]

When WotC does playtest results like this, they seriously should <i>not</i> have people at different positions in the hierarchy playing at the same time. Meaning that Mike Mearls should either grab a bunch of people not working on 5E D&D or he should butt out.

QFT.

Of course, if they got a group that wasn't the boss and a bunch of people dependent on his good graces for their paychecks the playtest might include people saying not-nice things about the rules of the game. An intrepid designer would use that as useful feedback, or at least the useful bits that can be separated from the vitriol, to address concerns with the design of their game but that's clearly not the goal of this little dog and pony show. :/

Also, you're welcome Nockermensch.

[EDIT]

30 minutes in and it's clear that the contact for the party is quite possibly the single most patient Githyanki Blackguard in the history of Githyanki Blackguards.

[EDIT 2]

Describing things up to this point with my mom (who doesn't even play D'n'D but is aware of how it works) said in no uncertain terms "Can I hit them? I mean, really, just hurt them a bit. They're a bunch of idiots." /anecdote

[Voss]

"Class undisclosed" is an actual thing we do around here with games expected to dissolve into intra-party combat on purpose. It is not, however, suited to a publicity event.

That makes sense to me on both accounts.

I'm just about 7 minutes into the video and Mearl's exposition/monologue about his Dwarf rapper is getting to be pretty irritating. I pity the DM at this point. :/

Just skip to the hour mark. Almost nothing but exposition and bullshit happens during that time, and they explain the roleplaying bonds better in the short QA at the end anyway, though 'better' is still badly.


As for 'class undisclosed,' sure, on both counts. They seem to have no concept that this is a publicity event, which is wholly stupid (and lead to the fucking hour of exposition)*, but in actual campaigns I'm entirely with the idea that characters don't introduce themselves as classes, because most of them are a metagame disconnect anyway. Wizard, yes. Fighter, no- mercenary, soldier, duelist or something.

Players, on the other hand, well, that depends entirely on the campaign's tone.

*Which is the really frustrating bit. This would have been much better if it was two combat encounters and some sort of display of non-combat mechanics. Not just vomiting exposition and stupid gamer stereotypes. [The moron, the asshole, the pandering lapdog (who is actually least offensive) and Mr Mysterious]

[shadzar]

ugh... if Mearls was at a game of mine for just 10 minutes i would have to throw him out of the building. not only his ideas for his character as mentioned as stupid and out of place, but he was worse than Dave Noonan with the voices and crap. chill the fuck out, don't act like a 4 year old. the DM needs to do SOME voices to distinguish NPCs, but sadly this one only had one voice it sounded like. doesnt mean a player needs to sound like a exiled smurf to compensate.

damn thing kept restarting so i never got to the end dont even remember the fights that much, just the one guy has no legs...last most memorable moment.

this group just doesn't work. the one was too uptight of a character, and Mearls too stupid of a player.

what exactly did Mearls do in order to get to work on D&D, since i have seen NOTHING productive from him for ANY RPG... ever? i mean sure, he acts like a 12 year old as a player, so maybe that is his purpose...since the disclaimer said adult gamers using adult language and such it only fits that Mearls acts like a crappy 12 year old player.

how the fuck does a rapper even fit into D&D? that shit doesn't even belong in the real world! i guess he wanted to play a bard, but the dont have the class ready yet? (it really seemed like Mearls was playing Elan from OotS as persona's go.)

[infected slut princess]

That "playtest" video was unbearable shit. Millions of times worse than anything yet released to promote 5e so far.

If this is what counts as work for the D&D design team, 5e is hopeless. But I guess we already knew that.

-------

Why do they have to dick around so much? It's torture watching these morons play.

Assuming I cared about 5e, I would watch this video to see some 5e rules in action. I wouldn't even care about their horribly unfunny roleplaying or story line. So why does it take an hour for anything to happen? Why can't we just have some contrived situations and action set pieces to show off the rules?

I skipped through large parts of it, but as far as I could tell they didn't roll any dice or use any real rules for the first hour.

Then when the fighting starts, they barely spend any time explaining and promoting the rules.

They should have had one of the frames in the screen show text for rules they are using, and character sheets and such, instead of a pointless static image. Their technical incompetence is astonishing. For rules promotion, this totally blows my rectum.

I think someone said this earlier, but if I was in this group I would have my character be a "traitor in the ranks" and try to kill that fucking Mearls dwarf character. Seriously, fuck that loser.

Someone should send a link of this to Brian Goldner, and maybe it will cause a chain reaction that will result in Mearls getting fired.

[Corsair114]

Apparently, they were using rules for the first hour, which aren't touched until the end Q&A. Your character has "Flaws," and if you play them up enough, the DM's supposed to hand bonuses for doing so because your "Flaws" are supposed to negatively effect you and/or the course of the adventure. That'd be why Mr. Half-Orc Rogue was really pouring on the asshole-factor vs the 20~ lvl Githyanki Blackguard who was surrounded by his own bodyguards.

[K]

Anyone who would design a "be an asshole at the table" flaw shouldn't be let near a gaming table, much less be a designer.

[phlapjackage]

This video, more than anything else, has convinced me of the truth of the assertion that Mearls is really just trolling everyone with 5E.

[Seerow]

So according to one of the devs on twitter, we're getting one more playtest packet in September, and then they're done with the open playtest.

Discuss.

[CCarter]

Thank goodness the pain is almost over, I look forward to the whole thing imploding?
I'm thankful to 5E for finishing the Edition Wars. RIP and may the horrific mess that is its actual rules lead to a brighter future when 6E is announced in record time.

[Corsair114]

Discuss.

Discus? Ok!

*hurls charred pizzas at WotC*

But, really, I don't think there's much to expect from D'n'D as a tabletop game other than WotC keeping it on lifesupport so it can collect royalties from whoring out its trademark.

[infected slut princess]

So according to one of the devs on twitter, we're getting one more playtest packet in September, and then they're done with the open playtest.

Discuss.

This means that the 5e designers essentially think they have a mostly finished game that is at least somewhat good. All I can say to that is: LOL

I also suppose it means that the designers will have to start working on the math, which they always said they could just leave until the very end and all the "more important" stuff was figured out. But they've already failed, because even if they made the game mathematically sound somehow, they cannot overcome the sheer lack of COOLNESS in 5e.

I wonder if, by some miracle, they will realize how shitty their game is when a mighty red dragon cannot break down a sturdy door. I mean, even if you are the strongest thing in the 5e universe (Str 30), you need to roll a 20 to break down a sturdy door with a masterwork lock. Is that lame or what. Somehow, that just doesn't jive with the artwork they rely on.

Here is the picture at the playtest page:

This dragon is fucking HUGE. It looks awesome and epic. And in 5e it cannot break down a fucking door.

Maybe in trying to bring the game to a finished state, they will realize how many non-rule rules they have (like all the poorly defined powers of Charisma ability checks, for instance "persuade someone to do something"). If they realize this, they will realize that they've barely designed a game at all.

-----------

SIDE NOTE:
I really, really, really hate how only demons and not devils can use at-will teleport. To me, it is a defining characteristic of D&D that demons and devils can teleport anywhere they want (within the plane) whenever they want.

Even more shitty, however, is that the demons who can teleport can only go... a whopping 500 feet. GOOD GRIEF THAT IS SHITTY AND STUPID.

I HATE YOU 5E!!!!!!!![/b]