Prestige Classes

[KauTZ]

That's the joy of multiple spell slots.

You can take away or give as many as you want based on how powerful the ability your giving back is.

Really powerful abilities (transportation version of gate at will, -7 unnamed to some schmucks saves, at will) could potentially cost an entire levels worth of spell slots, while less powerful abilities would only cost one spell slot of appropriate level.

[Jacob_Orlove]

Here are some abilities that'd be worth a pretty hefty pile of spell slots:

Cooperative Metamagic (Su): At 2nd level, an incantatrix gains the ability to apply any metamagic feat she possesses (except silent spell, still spell, or quicken spell) to a spell being cast by a willing allied wizard. The caster need not prepare the spell in metamagic form or in a higher-level spell slot; the incantatrix simply modifies the spell during the casting. Using this ability is a standard action that provokes attacks of oppertunity, just like casting a spell, though the incantatrix can use the concentration skill with this ability as though she were casting defesivly. The incantatrix must ready an action to use cooperative metamagic when her ally begins casting and must be adjacent to the caster. The incantatrix must make a spellcraft check (DC 18 [3 x modified spell level]) to succeed. "Modified spell level" is the level of the spell slot that spell would occupy if it were prepared with the metamagic feat applied. Any spell level increases from metamagic feats that the caster applied also count toward the modified spell level. For example, if an incantatrix applies the maximize spell feat to an ally's chain lightning spell, the modified spell level is 9th (6th level spell 3 for maximize spell), and the DC is (18 (3 x 9) = 45. If she applies the same feat to an ally's silent chain lightning, the modified spell level is 10th and the spellcraft DC is 48. An incantatrix can use the ability a number of times per day equal to 3 her int modifier.

Metamagic Effect (Su): At 3rd level, an incantatrix can attempt to apply a metamagic feat she possesses to a persistent spell effect that is already in place. For example, she could use extend spell to extend the duration of a wall of force or maximize spell to maximize the damage dealt by a cloudkill. To use this ability, the incantatrix must be adjacent to or within the spell effect and make a sucessful spellcraft check (DC 18 [3 x modified spell level]). "Modified spell level" is the level of the spell slot that the spell would occupy if it were prepared with the metamagic feat applied. Spell slot increases for metamagic feats that were applied to affect the spell's casting (such as still spell, silent spell, or quicken spell) do not count toward the modified spell level, but adjustments for metamagic feats that chamge the spells's effect (such as empower spell, enlarge spell, or widen spell) do count. An incantatrix can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 her int modifier. Using this ability is a full round action that provokes attacks of oppertunity.

Metamagic Spell Trigger (Su): At 5th level, an incantatrix gains the ability to apply a metamagic feat she possess to the effect of a spell trigger item (generally a wand). To use the ability, she must have the appropriate item creation feat to make the spell trigger item she is using. Using metamagic spell trigger expends a number of additional charges from the item equal to the number of effective spell levels the metamagic feat would add to a spell. For example, an incantatrix can use quicken spell to modifiy a spell cast from a wand by spending 5 charges (1 4 additional charges for the spell slot increase). Alternativly, she can appl empower spell to the effect by spending 3 charges, or trigger it silently by spending 2 charges. The still spell feat confers no benefit when applied to a spell trigger item. An incantatrix cannot use the ability when using a spell trigger item that does not have charges, such as a strand of prayer beads.

Seize Concentration (Su): At 6th level, an incantatrix gains the ability to wrest control of a spell that requires concentration (such as implosion, major image, or summon swarm) from another spellcasting within 30 feet. If the target spellcaster is willing, the transfer of control occurs automatically. Otherwise, the incantratrix and the target spellcaster make an opposed caster level check. A divine spellcaster receives a 2 bonus on this check. In the incantatrix wins, she gains control of the spell for as long as she maintaints contrentration or until the original spell duration expires. The spell functions as though the incantatrix were the caster (even if it is a spell she cannot cast), except that any variables determined when the spell was cast (including its caster level), remain as determined by the original caster. The original spellcaster can be affected by his own spell, though he receives a 2 circumstance bonus on any saving throw allowed against it. If the incantatrix allows her concentration to lapse before the spell duration expires, the original caster may reassert control over his spell by making a successful caster level check (DC 15 spell level). If he fails to do so, no one controls the spell.

Instant Metagic 1/day (Su): Once per day, a 7th-level or higher incantatrix can apply a single metamagic feat she possesses to a spell without preparing it that way beforehand (if she prepares spells) or increasing it's casting time (if she does not prepare spells). Thus, a wizard's prepared spell works as if she had prepared it with the metamagic feat, but it does not use a higher-level spell slot. A sorcerer or bard's spell is cast without adjusting it's casting time, but it works as if he had cast it with a metamagic feat. A 9th-level incantatrix can use this power twice per day.

Snatch Spell (Su): At 8th-level, an incantatrix can attempt to seize control over a persistant spell effect created by another spellcaster. The effect must by one that does not depend on concentration but still relies on or responts to the caster's control (such as a summon monster spell or spiritual weapon, but not a wall of fire or acid fog). Furthermore, the effect (but not necessarily the spellcaster) must be within 30 feet of the incantatrix. The target spellcaster and the incantatrix make an opposed caster level check. A divine spellcaster receives a 2 bonus on this check. If the incantatrix wins, she gains control of the spell until it's original duration expires. The spell functions as if the incantatrix had cat it, except that any variables determined when the spell was cast (including its caster level) remain as determined by the caster. The original caster can be affected by his own spell, though he receives a 2 circumstance bonus on any saving throw allowed against it. If the spell is dismissable and the incantatrix wishes to dismiss it, she must make a second successful opposed caster level check to do so. If she fails, the spell remains in effect and control reverts to the original caster.

Improved Metamagic (Su): At 10th level, an incantatrix has matered metamagic to such an extent that wheneve she uses a metamagic feat, the required increase in spell level (if any) is reduced by one (minimum 1 spell level). For example, a wizard incantatrix could prepare a quickened fireball as a 6th-level spell instead of a 7th-level spell. The benefit also applies to the incantatrix's other class abilities. Thus, the DC for using her metamagic effect or cooperative metamagic is reduced appropriatly for the metamagic feats involved, and she spends fewer charges when using metamagic spell trigger.

Admittedly, that's one of the best Prestige Classes a Wizard is going to see, but part of that is because the tradeoffs are near zero (you have to take Iron Will, a metamagic feat, and have skill ranks you'd take anyway).

So yeah, sometimes it's worth paying huge costs, because PrCs can and do give out crazy good abilities. Most of the time, though, you'll want to give the PrC smaller costs, because you're not giving anything huge in return.

[Koumei]

Notice that the only PrCls that actually give abilities worth losing spell slots/caster levels for are the ones that don't have any such cost?

The Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is another example. It's awesome, really. The costs? Set a couple of feats on fire (unless you make a lot of use out of Abjuration spells with save DCs, in which case you're not even doing that).

[Voss]

Or you can just take the master specialist prc, and get half of those feat requirements for free, and switch out to IofSV once you get greater spell focus.

[KauTZ]

I know WotC CharOp had a few moments of brilliancy when they realized that Wiz 3/MS 7/IofSV 10/ MS +3 was crazy go awesome.

Then they decided to start stuffing in Abjurant Champion for some reason.

MS, IofSV and Incantatrix are the kind of crap that made me start wondering this. Why in the hell would you stay as a shitty wizard when you can pay next to nothing to get insane special abilities in addition to your world shattering magics?

Is there some way to make feat-req's actually worth it? So your loosing spell slots for your abilities, but getting into the PrC shouldn't be a no-brainer. We don't want to set feats on fire, but we don't want the feats you need to be something you would take anyways.

[Jacob_Orlove]

1203731281[/unixtime]]Notice that the only PrCls that actually give abilities worth losing spell slots/caster levels for are the ones that don't have any such cost?

I hear that a lot, but the Recaster is an exception, a 4/5 progression class that's worth taking if you happen to be a Changeling:

Metamorphic Spell: The recaster's specialty is the ability to alter spells on the fly to best meet the demands of a specific situation. At different levels, you gain the ability to modify your spells as you cast them.

Components:At 1st level, you can alter the components required to cast your spells. You can freely ignore normal material components as if you had the Eschew Materials feat (though you cannot ignore the need for an expensive material component or an XP component). As well, once per day per class level, you can apply the benefit of either the Silent Spell or the Still Spell feat to any spell you cast without increasing the level of the spell, specially preparing it ahead of time, or increasing its casting time. As with the Silent Spell feat, you cannot apply this benefit to a bard spell in order to cast it without a verbal component.

Time:At 3rd level, you gain the ability to alter the temporal characteristics of your spells. Three times per day, you can cast any spell that normally has a casting time of 1 standard action and a duration longer than 1 round as a swift action, as if you had applied the Quicken Spell feat to it. The level of the spell is not altered and you do not need to specially prepare the spell ahead of time, but the duration of the spell becomes 1 round.

Space: At 5th level, you can manipulate the spatial characteristics of your spells (including range, area, and even targets) up to five times per day in the following ways.

-- You can use a spell with a range of touch on a target up to 30 feet away by making a ranged touch attack.

-- You can alter a spell that affects an area (burst, emanation, spread, cylinder, or line) in order to create spaces within the area that are not subject to the spell's effect (a minimum 5-foot cube for each such space). Furthermore, if the spell is shapeable, the minimum dimension for the shaped area or effect is 5 feet instead of 10 feet.

-- If the spell's area is a burst, emanation, or spread, you can cast it as a cone, cylinder, line, or sphere. You can change areas freely within any of the following groups:

Group 1: 15-foot cone OR 10-foot-radius cylinder, 40 feet high OR 30-foot line OR 5-, 10-, or 15-foot-radius sphere

Group 2: 30-foot cone OR 20-foot-radius cylinder, 40 feet high OR 60-foot line OR 20- or 30-foot-radius sphere

Group 3: 60-foot cone OR 40-foot-radius cylinder, 40 feet high OR 120-foot line OR 40- or 80-foot-radius sphere

-- If the spell targets a number of creatures, no two of which can be farther apart than a certain distance, you can have the spell affect the same number of creatures as long as each is half that distance from one other affected creature. Thus, if you applied this effect to a haste spell you cast, you could affect up to one creature per level as long as each affected creature was within 15 feet of another affected creature.

Expanded Knowledge: At 2nd level, and again at 4th level, choose a spell up to one level lower than the highest-level spell you can cast from any class's spell list. You can add this spell to the spell list of the same arcane spellcasting class to which you added your increased spellcasting ability at that level.

Sudden Metamagic (Su): At 2nd level, choose a metamagic feat you know from the following list: Empower Spell, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Maximize Spell, or Widen Spell. Once per day per class level, you can apply the benefit of that feat to any spell you cast without increasing the level of the spell, preparing it ahead of time, or increasing its casting time. At 4th level, you can choose another feat you know from the list above and use it in conjunction with this ability; with this ability, you can't apply the effect of more than one feat to the same spell. If you don't know any feat from the above list, you gain no benefit until you acquire an appropriate feat.

The first level, where you get Eschew Materials and Sudden Silent/Still Spell 1/day with no new spells is awful, but the next four levels are good times.

Initiate has some great defensive abilities, but it's a little overrated on the whole. It's one of the better Wizard PrCs, but only because it costs no caster levels.

[JonSetanta]

Well, my current DM disallowed Incantatrix for precisely those reasons.

So what's left?
All the rest suck.

The campaign probably won't last beyond level 6 at the rate it's going right now, so straight Sorcerer probably wouldn't be too much of a suboptimal choice.

The same applies to any other campaigns; if it's a short run, don't even worry about the presence of PrCs.
I'd say unless the campaign progresses beyond level 10, don't even bother.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

Check into a lot of those.

Don't need to. The poster noted which prestige classes have unusual entry requirements. Most don't.

I don't know about all of them, but a lot of that shit, including, the alienist, fiendblooded (which is insultingly ironic, since its supposedly designed for sorcerers), and many others require you to fulfill skill requirements that you can't actually fill until 12th or 13th level as crossclass skills. (Knowledge Planes is crossclass) That sucks ass.

That does suck ass. In that example you could get the education feat and make knowledge skills considered to always be class skills for you. For one feat you get into the prc at half the level you otherwise would be able to.

Fatespinner can't be accessed until 8th due to the requirements, and a lot of those mention right out that you have to blow levels in other classes (turn undead and sneak attack requirements).

On that list there are 3 prestige classes that require sneak attack or turn undead. Even then there are possible rules shenanigan's you could use to get in with full spellcasting.

Wild mage can be accessed at 6th, but damn. I'd just as soon not fuck with my caster level, thanks.

I forget, but I think either RAW or a sage ruling stated that you could use practiced spellcaster with wild mage to never dip below your character level to determine your caster level. For whatever that is worth.

Oh, and then there is the Frost Mage, which has a requirement that can't actually be fulfilled. Spending 24 hours in a blizzard unprotected, using the rules as presented in Its Cold Outside, has a 100% chance of killing any wizard or sorcerer unless you handwave it in some fashion.

Since I have no idea what they mean when they say "unprotected" I can't argue the point.

I don't really want to take the time and do it, but I suspect less than a third of that list is viable for a full casting sorcerer, unless you want to stay and dick around in the class until at least 8th level (fatespinner) or 12th/13 for most of them (alienist, fiendblooded). And even then you're blowing your insulting amount of skill points and feats just to qualify for the PrC. Which is wacky, since the flavor text for the class tells you that sorcerers know magic so innately they don't have to spend a lot of time studying. So what the fuck are these dumb bastards doing? They get less than wizard does, and they have ~16 hours in a day that they aren't using at all!

I don't know about "viable", but they are full spellcasting progression prestige classes. But even if we take your assumption that only one third are viable, that would still leave 20 PrC's to dip from (out of 61).

I'll talk about prc requirements in my next post.

[Voss]

A lot of those have requirements that aren't listed. Particularly divine spellcasting. Its better to rely on looking them up yourself than rely on that bunch of idiots, since they seem to think that having the martial stance from Bo9S that grants 2d6 sneak attack is functionally the same as having 2d6 sneak attack as a class feature. I wouldn't buy that trying to powergame a character *for* a game, let alone if I was running one.

As for unprotected in a blizzard, thats defined as well. Literally unprotected. No heavy clothing, no protective spells, nothing.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

Why in the hell would you stay as a shitty wizard when you can pay next to nothing to get insane special abilities in addition to your world shattering magics?

You wouldn't.

...but getting into the PrC shouldn't be a no-brainer.

Yes it should.

We don't want to set feats on fire...

Right.

but we don't want the feats you need to be something you would take anyways.

Wrong.
_____________

Ok, let me step back and explain. First of all prestige classes as presented are fundamentally broken in many ways and it is impossible to find an acceptable solution if you incorporate those problems into your thinking. Before I talk about the problems of prestige classes, I'll first discuss what the rules should be like:

(Base) classes should be balanced against each other so that they are of equal power, yet offer differences which are thematically and tactically distinct and meaningful. Prestige classes should just be an alternate path of the base class offering variant abilities and themes. In this viewpoint prestige classes might not even exist, they are just custom base classes, fitted to each player.

(Some of) The problems with prestige classes as presented in 3.x:
1 Most base classes have many (if not 19 out of 20) dead levels, and therefore no abilities to give up.
2 Prestige classes give out abilities.
3 A 'cost' is created to 'balance' this out. This results in you either spending character power or concept.
4 The costs are not balanced against anything, especially not each other.

I'll use the sorcerer as an example because he is the worst offender. He has 19 out of 20 dead levels. He has the worst hd (d4), the worst saves (1), the worst bab, and is a full spellcaster. He has nothing to give up that is not spellcasting. So the people who make prc's have come up with two 'solutions'.

1): Give up spellcasting levels! Hooray. Now you cannot ride the "level appropriate ability train" as Frank puts it. You now suck.
2): You spend your skills and feats on crap that nobody would want, ensuring that at least that aspect of your character sucks.

So. If you want to play 3.x, and have players with unique abilities, you have a few options:
1): Make your own classes for every player.
2): Use base and prestige classes and just live with the fact that the base classes are made of dead levels, and that your players will be slightly more powerful for having prestige classes.
3): Try to create new "costs." This seems to be your current choice. I don't you'll be happy with it.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

...since they seem to think that having the martial stance from Bo9S that grants 2d6 sneak attack is functionally the same as having 2d6 sneak attack as a class feature. I wouldn't buy that trying to powergame a character *for* a game, let alone if I was running one.

I also dislike cheesing PrC requirements. For the most part I don't do it. But if the PrC requirements are designed so badly (like having to wait until 12/13 level for skill requirements) that it unfairly penalizes your character, then I have no qualms about cheesing it (like taking the education feat).

On the flip side, of course people cheese the rules to do things that shouldn't be done.

As for unprotected in a blizzard, thats defined as well. Literally unprotected. No heavy clothing, no protective spells, nothing.

Well if "No heavy clothing, no protective spells" are the only restrictions for being "unprotected" then of course it isn't impossible to enter the prestige class.

[Crissa]

None of this matters, since Prestige classes are examples of things DMs can have for their campaign, and people can choose to have a character that fits their design better than the base classes.

Of course, we know they couldn't even make base classes that way, so why would the examples even be good ideas?

-Crissa

[JonSetanta]

They're on a tangent or something. Thread derailed.

For fixing PrCs, it seems that either we'll have to find an example done right or do it ourselves.
Although, probably not hard to predict the effects of removing more prereqs for the average PrC; better characters all around, leaning more to the favor of non-caster since caster's don't get much more benefit from PrCs in comparison (except for the Incantaplox)

[KauTZ]

You certainly gave me a lot to think about, SphereOfFeetMan.

But wait, going into a PrC should be a no-brainer? So you want every caster to jump ship no later then level 7 and never look back?

This is looking bleaker everyday, but I guess it's not overly surprising. Ignoring PrC's in favour of specialized Tome-style feats might be better...

[Koumei]

Jumping ship into a PrCl isn't that much of a problem. Hell, if a caster PrCl gives benefits that aren't as good as the new spells they get (especially if these benefits are small bonuses that don't stack with the big bonuses they could give themselves, or are abilities that cost actions to use), then it seriously doesn't matter.

So everyone gets a little bit of extra power. Who cares? It's not enough to radically change the game balance, and it lets people be closer to what they see their character being.