Pathfinder Is Still Bad

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:52 pm

Paladins have a separate fiddly point system to keep track of. I'm guessing the warpriests will be less healy, maybe?

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:33 am

Hunter sounds super pointless. And Slayer sounds quite ok, so you know it will be stupid. Hybrid frenzy is just asking to suck.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:27 am

Most of them sound pointless. For the noncasters and hybrid casters, expect long, tedious and raging debates on whether the class or multiclassing is just better.

Jason Bulmahn, Lead Idiot wrote:Since class design is more art than science, this won't be a system (like in the Advanced Race Guide), but rather a chapter giving you advice on how the process works.

Yeah. That 'science' was great. The standard races are utter pieces of shit compared to what you can do with that system. Just admit that it was fucked up beyond all belief, it should never be used and be done with it.

Though thinking about it, suggesting that classes are more 'art' means that it will be even more fucked up and random, with even fewer balance points. Hurrah, that is all kind of crazy fucked up, since races are mostly bullshit one-time bonuses. Class features build on themselves, and the insanity multiplies.

Sashi · Post by **Sashi** » Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:51 am

MGuy wrote:Ever since I mentioned it to a friend he's been describing how fucked up Dragonlance as a setting is. All I'd heard about prior were gully dwarves, the mountain thing, and how I shouldn't ever let anyone be or play anything like a Kender ever.

Dragonlance is a nice setting at the "boots on the ground" level. Arcane magic is (explainably) rare and Divine magic is nonexistant, unlike Forgotten Realms where there's a 12th level Wizard under every rock and 8th level clerics are seriously Mayors of some towns. The most fucked thing about Dragonlance is the metaplot, things like Arcane magic coming from the three "gods of magic" and it is not at all clear how this works (there's almost no interpretation of this setup in which someone isn't getting a raw deal).

Other than that, it pretty much comes down to the quality of the specific writer and story that you're reading.

Probably the most interesting thing about the novels is how insanely faithful the novels are to DnD mechanics. Characters often cast recognizable spells and the world is noticeably populated by monstrous races. Example: Dragonlance minotaur are consummate sailors, so minotaur show up nearly every time the story takes the characters to a port town or on a sea voyage and it's not weird.

There's a short story about a dragon slayer who thinks he's killing a White dragon, but it turns out it's actually an albino Silver dragon. How does he tell this? Because it has paralyzing breath (silvers have Ice/Paralyzing but Whites only have Ice breath).

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:45 pm

Corsair114 wrote:Is that not just a Paladin without any asinine alignment restrictions?

No, it'll be a cleric with worse spellcasting/channeling and something crappy to replace them.

K · Post by K » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:22 pm

Sashi wrote:
Other than that, it pretty much comes down to the quality of the specific writer and story that you're reading.

Pretty much. The Tales series has a lot of authentically good short stories, but the "main" books are pretty much the kind of fiction that results from transcribing adventure logs.

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:52 pm

Latest rumor is the Arcanist class will prepare spells like a wizard but cast them like a sorcerer.

PF 2.0 here we come!

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:04 pm

TOZ wrote:Latest rumor is the Arcanist class will prepare spells like a wizard but cast them like a sorcerer.

Wait, you mean learn everything, but prepare x/level day, but cast the prepared spells freely? Barring additional weirdness tacked on, that is miles better than both!

DragonChild · Post by **DragonChild** » Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:08 pm

It's not a new mechanic, for what it's worth - Monte Cook used it in Arcana Unearthed in 2003.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:37 pm

True, but all the AU classes worked that way, and quite a few of the power spells required resource (feat) burning to gain access.
While Monte's construction had some definite problems under the hood (magister access was just better, and some power spells didn't require resource burn), on paper this is new class > old classes, which a whole different level of failure.

DragonChild · Post by **DragonChild** » Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:57 pm

Not if you have a limited spell list, limited number of spells prepared/known, etc, etc. The Wizard can still exist in a world with the Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage, which have even BETTER casting types. And one of those is flat-out worse than the Wizard.

Emerald · Post by **Emerald** » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:52 pm

DragonChild wrote:It's not a new mechanic, for what it's worth - Monte Cook used it in Arcana Unearthed in 2003.

Also the Complete Divine spirit shaman, which came out a year later but would be much more familiar to D&D fans than a 3rd-party splat.

DragonChild wrote:Not if you have a limited spell list, limited number of spells prepared/known, etc, etc.

Or just less powerful class features to compensate. The spirit shaman casts off the druid list so its spellcasting is strictly superior to the druid's, but because the druid gets an animal companion and wildshape while the spirit shaman gets a few 1/day SLAs, druid is still the better choice.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:57 pm

DragonChild wrote:Not if you have a limited spell list, limited number of spells prepared/known, etc, etc. The Wizard can still exist in a world with the Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage, which have even BETTER casting types. And one of those is flat-out worse than the Wizard.

Well, yes, because the wizard can do things they can't, as well as the things they can. No one has put that on the table for the 'Arcanist,' however.

Slade · Post by **Slade** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:11 am

TOZ wrote:Latest rumor is the Arcanist class will prepare spells like a wizard but cast them like a sorcerer.

PF 2.0 here we come!

It was in World of Warcraft D20 in 3.5. It wasn't that powerful then.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:31 am

It isn't really a matter of being that 'powerful.' It is the design failure of making a class that is objectively better than the existing classes in the same system. Whatever class in warcraft d20 and the classes in unearthed arcana don't matter because they didn't sit alongside the wizard and sorcerer. The arcanist does, and assuming it isn't gimped in some way (which is a design failure in its own right), you can add wizard and sorcerer to the base classes that have been made obsolete by pathfinder.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:55 am

Someone somehow made the wizard obsolete?

Okay, how many days till the end of the world arrives?

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:26 am

icyshadowlord wrote:Someone somehow made the wizard obsolete?

Okay, how many days till the end of the world arrives?

Only potentially of course. They could still easily put all the new classes in gimp suits.

DragonChild · Post by **DragonChild** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:33 pm

Because a class that hasn't been confirmed yet, has no posted mechanics yet, no posted spell list or spell progression yet, and is literally just speculation can be called a "design failure".

Would you like to tell me how a class I'm working on for homebrew right now, that I am not going to share any details on is a design failure too?

I hate pathfinder as much as anybody else but let's at least wait until we actually see the goddamn class to tear it apart.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:42 pm

DragonChild wrote:Because a class that hasn't been confirmed yet, has no posted mechanics yet, no posted spell list or spell progression yet, and is literally just speculation can be called a "design failure".

Honestly, yeah. Given there are already 3 full arcane casters in pathfinder, adding #4 is pretty fucking worthless. If it isn't a full arcane caster, unless it has a schtick along the lines of 'inherently has pocket fighter' like the Summoner, it is a complete waste of ink.

It might be something if it was a dedicated flavor class like beguiler or dread necromancer, but indications are it is yet another 'can do everything' caster. So, fuck it. One way or another, it is trash.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:28 pm

"Arcanist" does not scream "dedicated flavor". I still want to know what they come up with, but they are starting out from a bad spot to begin with.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:29 am

I will take any odds, truly long insane odds that the Swashbuckler will be unusable ass. Come on people take hundred to one odds on it. You can send me money over paypal.

Fighter is bad, Gunslinger is unusably bad, Grit is garbage. Also if anyone was worried that a Fighter/Gunslinger would be able to use guns they assure us that they have no proficiency with guns. What??? I have aids now.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:43 am

WotC threw around a couple of variations on the Swashbuckler as well, and they were horrible almost beyond belief. Fundamentally, you're talking about a Fighter variant who specializes in using what in D&D are terrible weapons and armor.

By the time they have enough abilities to even bring them up to level of basic warriors using average equipment, you already have the mouth breather coalition decrying them for having too many abilities. It's really hard to imagine how you could throw down enough abilities for a warrior to go out with a rapier and padded armor and not get roflstomped by level appropriate monsters.

-Username17

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:50 am

I love the canny defense ability, that gets tacked onto swashbuckel-ish types. Add int mod to AC if nekkid. But only up to yor class level, you cunning dog! Thanks, that helps a lot with Int 13 at best!

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:54 am

I once suggested a class mechanic that was a 'parry' that gives a shield bonus of "1/3 class level + Dex Mod", when you have your weapon drawn, as their primary means of defense.

I may have suggested adding weapon enhancement to it, too.

Edit: Hit 'submit' too soon.

Ahem. Someone shit a brick about how broken it was. Along with other stuff like "ignores some Armor AC" and "Can full attack and move".

Antariuk · Post by **Antariuk** » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:16 pm

deanruel87 wrote:[...]

Fighter is bad, Gunslinger is unusably bad, Grit is garbage. Also if anyone was worried that a Fighter/Gunslinger would be able to use guns they assure us that they have no proficiency with guns. What??? I have aids now.

An archetype will take care of that. Yes, really.

FrankTrollman wrote:[...]
By the time they have enough abilities to even bring them up to level of basic warriors using average equipment, you already have the mouth breather coalition decrying them for having too many abilities. It's really hard to imagine how you could throw down enough abilities for a warrior to go out with a rapier and padded armor and not get roflstomped by level appropriate monsters.

-Username17

Does the "too many abilities" crowd still exist with Pathfinder? I thought they must have drowned in archetypes and alternate features by now. That fact that you can have an entire page of your character sheet covering niddly-diddly racial features and class abilities alone should give any swashbuckler design some leeway to work with... not that this would be desireable or anything, but still.