[awesomeTome] Base classes

[OgreBattle]

I drew centaurs all the time in elementary school, because Shining Force was goddamn awesome. I think the protagonist's girlfriend was a centaur, I never thought deeply about that though.

[gamerGoyf]

Trouble centaurs had other than being really awful character options due to LA costs. This isn't totally horrible since covering for other player's weak characters is the order of the day in LG:

• • A module expected us to fly to some location using giant eagles loaned by a noble. We instead hoofed it through the mountains because they weren't large enough to carry the Centaur. An aerial Griffon "random" encounter was instead ad hoc adjusted into an ambush upon us during night watch.
  • One dungeon technically had an entrance that was too small to allow admittance, so it was fudged to allow Centaur entrance.
  • Stairs.

Srsly though this project is relevant to my interests, given my quickly aborted attempt to fix 3.5. My major concern is that have powered up tome feats alongside a Fighter class that still gets bonus feats every even level seems... unadviseable :?

[TarkisFlux]

I'd make them ECL zero versions and let you take levels in Vampire or Werewolf levels to amp up your uberness in their regard.

If a 5 Man-at-Arms/3 Mage Hunter gets bitten by a Werewolf then I reckon there are 3 ways to go with it:

• 1. Nothing happens because Mage Hunter mojo, like all advanced classes, prevents Werewolf/Vampire bites from taking hold.
  2. They gain the ECL zero features, and have the option of taking a Werewolf Lord Advanced class... but I don't know if this has enough staying power to merit being an advanced class unless there is a 3rd tier of classes after that, maybe not even then
  3. They gain the ECL zero features, and have the option of trading in Man-at-Arms levels for Werewolf base levels if they cannot get cured.

I'd go with #3.

Option 4: Lycanthropy, Vampirism, or whatever else is an unmitigated bad thing for you when first acquired. Until you can control is you don't gain any benefit from the disease/curse/whatever, but may gain a pile of weaknesses (silver, sunlight / hunger). You also lose control of your character from time to time, because full moon / thralldom / etc., and potentially wind up working against your goals. It is not dealt with by gaining levels, but by spending a scaling feat (or 2 if it's a really big deal thing) on controlling and benefiting from the condition; this probably requires retraining to be a thing so you're not screwed for a few levels. If it's ever cured, you get to pick new feats to fill in for the old useless ones.

[RadiantPhoenix]

My major concern is that have powered up tome feats alongside a Fighter class that still gets bonus feats every even level seems... unadviseable

The point of powering up the feats was that the fighter's class feature is feats, and that thus that should be equivalent to other classes' features.

[Parthenon]

I thought lycanthropy/vampirism was discussed and mostly solved- everyone has a number of slots for magic items which increases as they level up, and the benefits of lycanthropy take up item slots permanently. So the regeneration against everything except fire and silver uses one item slot, while the hulking out in were form uses another slot. At low levels you can only gain as many werewolf benefits as you have item slots.

Because that way you are a werewolf that does magic, rather than an elf that werewolfs things. Seriously, werewolf isn't even a verb.

[erik]

Well, I think Parthenon sufficiently werewolfed those options.

Even upon your repeating that I don't remember it taking up items lots, but it sounds quite reasonable and I approve.

[Wiseman]

But where does it leave classes like my werewolf paragon?

[TarkisFlux]

I also don't remember the item slots thing, but it works pretty well.

But where does it leave classes like my werewolf paragon?

As a class that only the natural lycanthropes can take, rather than the inflicted lycanthropes? Or as a lesson in class design that was ultimately not necessary? Take your pick I guess.

[AndreiChekov]

the amount of work being proposed here is silly. Might as well just make a 3.x clone and rewrite everything.

[OgreBattle]

But where does it leave classes like my werewolf paragon?

In 4e there was a feat for vampirism, a class for vampirism, and a race for vampirism.

So if you were turned into a vampire mid campaign, you took the feat*
If you were born a vampire but studied wizardry, you took the race
If you were all about being a Vampire, you took the Class (and hybrid if you wanted to do other stuff).

And you took them all if you really wanted to suck (blood)
Conceptually, it worked out.


*Or maybe it was a Theme, or maybe I'm making this up. I don't know.

[Username17]

the amount of work being proposed here is silly. Might as well just make a 3.x clone and rewrite everything.

That is ultimately what kind of has to be done at this point.

Pathfinder failed at the backwards compatibility that they promised, and now no one even knows what numbers mean anymore.

3e at this point needs an ultimate, or perhaps "Advanced" edition to get everything on the same page again.

-Username17

[icyshadowlord]

Though haven't people already tried to do that a few times?

[Username17]

Though haven't people already tried to do that a few times?

Usually collapses due to lack of manpower.

You don't have to write 960 pages (the length of 3.5) to have a good 3.x revision, but you do need a lot of text. Writing up 15 classes or so isn't even a problem, it's the literally hundreds of spells, feats, and monsters you need to write. It's beyond a single person or even a pair of people.

You really need a team of like six people who all are on the same page as regards power progressions, game terms, and design sensibilities. Anything less than that and you'll get bogged down before you even get to the Ls like Lightning Bolt and Lamia.

-Username17

[Daiba]

You really need a team of like six people who all are on the same page as regards power progressions, game terms, and design sensibilities. Anything less than that and you'll get bogged down before you even get to the Ls like Lightning Bolt and Lamia.
-Username17

How much would this cost? I'm sure we could get enough funding behind it assuming the project had the right leadership. I can personally throw about $10k behind it - more if I didn't just shell out a shitload of money for tuition...

[sabs]

You need enough money for a print run. You also need enough money to kepp 6 people in hooch, hookers and blow until it's done writing.
Those people might also want to eat, and have a place to live.

[infected slut princess]

Eat and have a place to live? Uh, you need to have that covered already. That sort of project is not the kind of thing where you want to hire whiny losers just looking to collect a paycheck. You want to have a dedicated group of entrepreneurial bad-ass motherfuckers who will work on the game as a dedicated sideproject and then share profits (if they can generate any). Because no one is dumb enough to pay wages to RPG writers for a pie-in-the-sky Advanced Third Edition. No one. Frank Trollman created a complete game called After Sundown. I believe no one paid him to do it and he gives it away for free or $1 (customer's choice). There are some other mostly-complete games around TGD as well. I believe no one paid the creators to make those games. If something is worth getting done, it is also worth getting done for "free."

[sabs]

After sundown is.. amazingly less complex than D&D 3 New. lets face it, if it wasn't. Frank would have ALREADY DONE IT.
Hell, K and Frank would have done more than just Tome.

Hmm, it just occured to me the royal skank might be being facecious. Sarcasm on the net. *woosh*

[gamerGoyf]

Is there a reason that we can't just make this take place. I already was semi-prepared to rewrite 3.5 on my lonesome surely there are other people here willing to do work :?

[fbmf]

It took me three years to get a beta version of the PHB, but I have a version of Tome 3.5 that group is play testing now. The DMG is in alpha and I just write up the Bestiaur as I need it.

Now writing up one to appeal to the masses, even just the tgdmb masses, is a different story.

Game On,
fbmf

[codeGlaze]

Is there a reason that we can't just make this take place. I already was semi-prepared to rewrite 3.5 on my lonesome surely there are other people here willing to do work

The problem is getting a coherent vision together.
Shit, just read the first two pages of THIS THREAD to see that at work.

[Kaelik]

Is there a reason that we can't just make this take place. I already was semi-prepared to rewrite 3.5 on my lonesome surely there are other people here willing to do work

See my sig. The problem isn't that people are unwilling to do work, it is that we are all unwilling to accept the work of others.

I personally have only two methods of dealing with Koumei classes, pretending they don't exist and telling her she is a piece of shit who makes piece of shit classes. (Except Time Mage).

And for fucks sake, could you even imagine anyone ever making any use of anything JE has ever said?

[AndreiChekov]

What about just getting rid of every mundane character ever. Every class has spells. You can have simple classes with just 3 or 4 spells per level, and higher hp attack bonus, class abilities.... etc. And then have full casting classes where their abilities are just megatons of spells.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Muscle wizards who have prestige classes that grant, "+1 level of existing musclecasting class" (or just have spell-ish progressions that advance with base attack bonus. Yes, this synergizes with Divine Power -- this may or may not constitute a problem, and if it does, the problem may be with Divine Power or something)

I'm being silly with the wording, but I'm serious about the idea.

As an example of what I think a spell-ish progression might look like, I present something I came up with last Friday or something. (but have refined a bit since)

[Daiba]

You need enough money for a print run. You also need enough money to kepp 6 people in hooch, hookers and blow until it's done writing.
Those people might also want to eat, and have a place to live.

6x$60,000 (one year) + art budget + printing/distribution costs would be pretty tough. I was thinking more of a system where the work is divided up into sub-projects (specific rules component, set of spells, set of monsters, playtesting, etc.) and completion of each sub-project (according to design input) nets the author a cash bounty + percentage share of (probably non-existent) profits. We can hire freelancers to bust out setting fiction/non-rules related crap. How much of a cash bounty would be enough incentive?

The problem is getting a coherent vision together.

Thus the leadership/management issue. Editorial control should probably be limited to a couple people and the overall design architecture has to be hammered out before any work begins.

[Mask_De_H]

Daiba, that doesn't work because you will have Denners violently argue about the most minute parts of design architecture and it will ultimately go nowhere. See: TNE, Dead Man's Hand, Cyberpunk Fantasy Heartbreaker, Fantasy Kitchen Sink, etc, etc.

The only way a system gets done on the Den is if one person (usually Frank, Prak or Koumei) already has the idea and the vision, and only uses the peanut gallery for brainstorming and catching things they have missed. Or they post their mostly-complete heartbreaker in IMOI. All the money in the world won't get us assholes to cooperate with each other for more than five minutes.