The Art of Writing

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:12 am

I didn't know if this belonged in the other categories of the forum, so I decided to drop this here.

So, I've been a writer for 5 years now, just honing my skills with somewhat weird fantasy stories and the occasional fan fiction.

Now as I've been surfing around here, I've noticed some people have actually published stuff, and have a lot of experience to speak about.

As someone with a low level of confidence, I find myself worrying about my own works as a result. So, how long have you guys been writing? What have you been writing?
And do any of you have any advice for an up-start who wants to some day publish a novel or two that might some day be actually read by someone other than a friend or family member?

Edit: I don't have the balls to link any of my works here...

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:33 am

Fuck you and your lack of balls. Post that shit.

Anyway, if we're doing this AA style "Hi, I'm Bobby and I've been writing for about 15 years, if you count the really terrible shit I did in school which you probably shouldn't." I actually started really writing in college, and basically stumbled backwards into freelancing for Shadowrun. That was a five-year emotional roller coaster that I got far to invested in and had a bad break from, but after that I basically had the writing bug and started writing regularly - I earned a minor in technical writing and took a couple courses in creative writing but didn't find them very helpful - cue my various blogs, and the book I'm working on. That said, I can't say to have been a great success as a writer, mainly because I don't work to submit stuff to get published and get paid very often. I'm trying to change that with the book, but we'll see if my hoped-for publisher actually buys it.

As for what I write... The Unpublishable is mostly short fiction, microfiction, flash fiction, and experimental fiction, mostly in the fantasy mold with occasional forays into weird western, crime, science fiction, etc. The bulk of my published writing is all roleplaying stuff of every description. My book is a work of non-fiction.

Advice: Write your heart out. I can't speak for getting a novel published 'cause I never have, but write as best you can, set it aside for a bit, then go back and edit the shit out of it. Don't try to edit it while writing it: write first then edit. Polish that until it's perfect - and then be ready to chop it to pieces. First drafts are made to be cut.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Fine, for fuck's sake. My writings are in my Deviantart account, along with all the weird shit I end up liking on that site.

I saw the Unpublishable thread over here, but I haven't gotten to it yet since I'm at work and such. I'll give it a look when I can.

Well, the whole editing thing is a problem because I usually fail at seeing what I do wrong. I do have a friend who's been a sort of proof-reader for me, but I don't want to rely on him too much.

Edit: Yes, I said DeviantART. Something tells me the little respect I had (if any) faded with that statement.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:13 pm

I haven't used my DA account in ages but I'm curious why that'll reduce your Den credibility?

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:17 pm

I have seen people claim that any mention of association with DA instantly reduces credibility, no matter which part of the internet you are in.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:24 pm

icyshadowlord wrote:I have seen people claim that any mention of association with DA instantly reduces credibility, no matter which part of the internet you are in.

Crap, there goes my wife's credibility. She does most of her commission-work these days on Deviantart.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:51 pm

There is a lot of bad and amazing stuff on DeviantArt. I'm sure there's some Real Artists (TM) out there that think having a free account on a giant network of people doing bad Rule 34 sketches of pregnant superheroines and catgirls is going to diminish your artistic credibility, but I think mostly it depends on how good your material is.

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:34 pm

icyshadowlord wrote:Well, the whole editing thing is a problem because I usually fail at seeing what I do wrong.

Try reading your work out loud. It uses a different part of your brain, so you end up seeing errors you couldn't before.

Edit: Yes, I said DeviantART. Something tells me the little respect I had (if any) faded with that statement.

I love DeviantArt, so no disdain from me.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:16 pm

Maj wrote:
icyshadowlord wrote:Well, the whole editing thing is a problem because I usually fail at seeing what I do wrong.
Try reading your work out loud. It uses a different part of your brain, so you end up seeing errors you couldn't before.

Are you sure? I just wonder if that really works, considering my main language is Finnish yet I write mainly in English.

My friend has usually pointed out some odd phrasing I use, passive voice and failure to adhere to the advice "show, don't tell".

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:50 pm

Don't let anyone boss you around with the "NEVER USE PASSIVE VOICE" thing. It's bullshit. I almost scuttled a publication recently because I was battling with the publisher over my intentional use of passive voice. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. MS Word is not the final authority.

Ikeren · Post by **Ikeren** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:46 pm

Also, listen to the guy with actual published books that you can buy real life copies of in his signature. He probably knows what he's talking about.

As for me, I write to think - non-fiction sort of stuff. Philosophy and political theory. Poorly, for the most part, though I have one piece recently about divergent perceptions within minority subcultures that I think well of.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:00 pm

Fuck you and your lack of balls. Post that shit.

Best advice to prospective writers I have ever read.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:26 pm

JigokuBosatsu wrote:Don't let anyone boss you around with the "NEVER USE PASSIVE VOICE" thing. It's bullshit. I almost scuttled a publication recently because I was battling with the publisher over my intentional use of passive voice. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. MS Word is not the final authority.

It's not that he said never. He usually just proof-reads in case I had something written poorly, and then lets me do my thing*.

Anyway, since I was told to post shit, I might as well link the place where I have posted my shit. http://icyshadowlord.deviantart.com/

* = Unlike me, said dude has actually taken some courses on writing. Sure, I trust his judgement, but I don't automatically assume he's right.

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:45 pm

My only course on writing was my first (and only) term in college, where in my advanced creative writing class I was told by the prof that I was not a good writer.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:50 pm

The thing about the English language is that when you really get down to it, most of the hard-and-fast rules are really just suggestions. GOOD suggestions, don't get me wrong, but any writer who masters them knows that sometimes to achieve a specific style or effect it requires breaking the rules a bit...and that's okay!

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:34 pm

icyshadowlord wrote:
Maj wrote:Try reading your work out loud. It uses a different part of your brain, so you end up seeing errors you couldn't before.
Are you sure? I just wonder if that really works, considering my main language is Finnish yet I write mainly in English.

You know how people with dyslexia can generally carry on a decent conversation without doing things like confusing the number 12 with the number 21? Or how sometimes something just sounds wrong? That because aural comprehension is different from written comprehension.

If nothing else, just try it. Edit a few short things by reading them out loud, then give them to your friend and ask if there's an improvement. If there is, yay! If not, you tried. The most you have to lose are a few minutes.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:01 pm

I might as well give it a shot when I can, though family gets in the way a lot.

Also, I have no idea of how to feel right now. I actually did link my DA here and such.

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:17 pm

What's the worst that could happen? This is The Den. Even if it was complete shit we'd at least encourage you to start over after giving you a thorough Malcolm Tucker-ing.

And hey, it could be worse. I just outed myself as a terrible rapper on Facebook.

Parthenon · Post by **Parthenon** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:21 pm

I'm just going to piss all over your work...

My initial assessment of your writing is that it is too much tell and not enough show.

There are fiddly little typos and word usage I'd quibble about but they don't matter. The problem is that it often reads like a summary rather than a story. Some things are weirdly rushed or have a strange emphasis.

Actually, it seems like you have some well perceived images of individual moments, and are rushing between them to get to the bits you want.

An older example of this is:

Their celebration is cut short as Abysmal's skull begins to rise from the ground, letting out a mad cackle. ''HAHAHAAA!! You thought that I was done for, hmm? Think again!!'' The head then flies higher, out of the women's reach. ''I'll be back to kill you all, some day!!''

As he then flies off into the distance, silence strikes yet again, and soon after, a mysterious demon appears before them, descending from the skies. Her eyes are golden, her hair is long and crimson, and her hands have dark violet claws. Her wings are feathery and pitch black, like her tail.

She wears a white satin gown with black fur lining on the sleeves and along the collar, and her fingers are filled with golden rings. Energy swirls around her as a dark blue aura of light. Wickedly grinning as she lands, her gaze turns to look at Elise.

Apart from the fact that if you read this out loud it sounds weird and that filled is the wrong word, this seems like you have two bits you really want to write about and you then filled in the gap between as quickly as possible. The bolded part especially is incredibly rushed, and could almost be multiple paragraphs.

The thing is, picking on stuff you wrote three years ago isn't really fair. I've written worse, and read far, far worse. (Note: if you ever add an author note in the middle of a paragraph to say that a particular weapon or outfit is exactly like one in another medium, then I will hunt you down and feed you the keys you used to type that bullshit)

But even in your more recent writing there are still some of the same problems. Within the same paragraph you jump from place to place, and action scenes are a mix of summary and detailed description. I think it's better now that you are writing a story rather than a backstory, and you have definitely improved over the years.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:24 pm

Okay, I came back here after a discussion with that one pal of mine who proofreads my works. Something came up that kinda bothered me.

How long do you guys usually wait before revisiting a first draft of a written work? How long does one take to revisit a chapter, or an entire fucking novel?

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:34 pm

It depends. I've done a rewrite 10 hours after I wrote it and then I've done rewrites days/months later.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:35 pm

No hard and fast rule. You need to give it enough time that you're coming at it a bit fresh. Hell, I re-read stories on the Unpublishable a year or two later and still find little typos and stuff. Generally I think you need at least a day or two before you pick something up again once you've put it down.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:38 pm

You definitely want at least one sleep if you can manage it. If you can get your brain truly engaged with something else in the interim, that's good too.