Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Voss]

The new issue over at the PF forums:

Temp bonuses/penalties are permanent if they last 24 hours till then they follow their own rules.

Same thing they did with ability damage. It doesn't actually lower the ability score, only ability drain does that. Now you just get a -1 for every 2 points of damage.

Has that always been a thing, or something they changed recently?

[rasmuswagner]

The new issue over at the PF forums:

Temp bonuses/penalties are permanent if they last 24 hours till then they follow their own rules.

Same thing they did with ability damage. It doesn't actually lower the ability score, only ability drain does that. Now you just get a -1 for every 2 points of damage.

Has that always been a thing, or something they changed recently?

Right from the start. I think most people ignore it.

[Voss]

Same thing they did with ability damage. It doesn't actually lower the ability score, only ability drain does that. Now you just get a -1 for every 2 points of damage.

Has that always been a thing, or something they changed recently?

Right from the start. I think most people ignore it.

Probably. Not a lot of people bothered chasing down all the little changes that made the game incompatible with 3e. There are just too many.

[Rawbeard]

I surprised a lot of long standing Players/MCs with the temporary stuff in Pathfinder. People just don't care enough, even after playing PFs for years, so exposure to people who MIGHt know that shit is not an issue like in homegames.

Fiddly bits and changes, things nobody cares about but the authors. And this isn't even a horrible change, it helps keep things moving with a group that does not have a seperate sheet for every possible buff or debuff and combinations there of.

[Ice9]

I sort of knew ability the ability damage thing, but I thought it was just that you always took -1 per 2 (regardless of whether you had an even or odd score), not that it used completely different rules.

This "ability boost but not really" thing seems like the worst of both worlds. Either have the spell just give bonuses (and write it in the description that way), or have it affect the score like normal.

[rasmuswagner]

I surprised a lot of long standing Players/MCs with the temporary stuff in Pathfinder. People just don't care enough, even after playing PFs for years, so exposure to people who MIGHt know that shit is not an issue like in homegames.

Fiddly bits and changes, things nobody cares about but the authors. And this isn't even a horrible change, it helps keep things moving with a group that does not have a seperate sheet for every possible buff or debuff and combinations there of.

Not even the authors. The thing that sparked the debate over at the Paizo forums was their own NPC Codex - where the Barbarian gets +3 (not +2 like the actual rules say) damage with her two-handed sword when raging, like everyone has always played it.

[Rawbeard]

Oh snap, I don't know what I was expecting.

[tenngu]

Probably. Not a lot of people bothered chasing down all the little changes that made the game incompatible with 3e. There are just too many.

Has anyone tried to make a compilation of everything that's changed? Or is "frank's reasons why pf is bad" the closest thing we got to that?

[deaddmwalking]

I don't know if it's comprehensive, but there is a free conversion guide:

http://paizo.com/products/btpy89m6?Path ... sion-Guide

[Antariuk]

Has anyone tried to make a compilation of everything that's changed? Or is "frank's reasons why pf is bad" the closest thing we got to that?

There are a couple of such lists, but to my knowledge none of them go into any detail. They tell you what's new with the skill system and how class X has its signature class feature changed, but nothing more. Most of these things also stick to Core material only.

To be fair, comparing all the stuff Paizo has spat out with all the whole body of 3.5 sounds tedious and awful. Nobody in their right mind would even try to do that.

[hogarth]

Has anyone tried to make a compilation of everything that's changed? Or is "frank's reasons why pf is bad" the closest thing we got to that?

The most comprehensive thread of that type I can think of is this one from the Paizo boards:
What are some things about the Pathfinder rules that you think most people do not know?

However, it's full of garbage, pointless digressions, outright falsehoods and people with axes to grind as well.

[tenngu]

I don't know if it's comprehensive, but there is a free conversion guide:

http://paizo.com/products/btpy89m6?Path ... sion-Guide

...Kinda. It was helpful, but I was hoping they'd include some of the fiddly bit changes. Like the temp bonus math change thing. Additionally:

There have been a lot of changes between the 3.5 rules and
those used in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. Some of these changes affect entire systems and are relatively obvious, while others are quite a bit subtler. If you are familiar with the 3.5 rules, it is only natural that some of these changes are going to slip by for a number of sessions before someone notices them. For your first few games, don’t worry overmuch about missing these

This is from the conversion guide. It then goes on to list the big obvious things like CMB and favoured class shit. But about those subtle things, do they really expect people to just stumble upon these small changes over time? Are we supposed to pour through their phb and double check if something has changed? Am I the only one that thinks this is a little crazy?

[deaddmwalking]

You're supposed to play it just as 3.5 unless someone suggests making a change that improves things or bringing it in line with the published rules.

There are some changes (like Combat Maneuver Bonus) that absolutely matter because of the way monsters are statted - but outside of those changes you can pretty much run 3.x without any problems.

Heck, people ran tables with lots of rules misunderstandings in the 3.x era. I had the hardest time understanding that Natural Reach wasn't like a Reach weapon... So for a long while Ogres couldn't attack humans standing right next to them. Oops.

[virgil]

You're supposed to play it just as 3.5 unless someone suggests making a change that improves things or bringing it in line with the published rules.

There are some changes (like Combat Maneuver Bonus) that absolutely matter because of the way monsters are statted - but outside of those changes you can pretty much run 3.x without any problems.

Heck, people ran tables with lots of rules misunderstandings in the 3.x era. I had the hardest time understanding that Natural Reach wasn't like a Reach weapon... So for a long while Ogres couldn't attack humans standing right next to them. Oops.

I ran into one group that only used the numbers of CMB; none of them even vaguely realized that the effects of being grappled in PF were different from 3.5.

[hogarth]

...Kinda. It was helpful, but I was hoping they'd include some of the fiddly bit changes. Like the temp bonus math change thing. ?

You might find this post helpful:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mcmk&page=12?What-are-some-things-about-the-Pathfinder#563
A guy was trying to compile a list of changes like you suggest, but he gave up in 2011 and the discussion is still running today...

[ishy]

This is from the conversion guide. It then goes on to list the big obvious things like CMB and favoured class shit. But about those subtle things, do they really expect people to just stumble upon these small changes over time? Are we supposed to pour through their phb and double check if something has changed? Am I the only one that thinks this is a little crazy?

A good example would be:

James Jacobs[/url]]All bonuses are retroactive when an ability score increases, be they bonuses to damage, to skill ranks, to hit points, to saves, to skill checks... all of them. Skill ranks not being retroactive are a 3.5 convention we specifically removed from the game because it was a weird exception to the rule, and since now there are no exceptions to this rule, there's no need to specifically state that skill ranks are retroactively granted if your Intelligence goes up.

[Antariuk]

On top of all the general rules changes comes the errata and FAQ, if you are willing to track those sources. Good example would be the Stealth skill errata in the 6th CRB printing, or the (older) change to Spellcraft where it now takes a week before you can re-try, not a new rank.

[Koumei]

The new issue over at the PF forums:

Temp bonuses/penalties are permanent if they last 24 hours till then they follow their own rules.

Hang on, what? Do you really mean to say that if you wear your armour for 24 hours, the Armour Bonus becomes permanent even when you take it off?

Or just that it takes 24 hours for your Bracers of Dexterity +2 to actually change your character sheet to say "Dexterity 17" instead of "Dexterity 15" and until then you simply have +1 to "Dexterity-related activities"?

Does temporary Con damage still kill someone if they take Con damage equal to their Constitution, or is it just a Con penalty now so they're totally fine as long as it doesn't last a whole day?

[Slade]

Or just that it takes 24 hours for your Bracers of Dexterity +2 to actually change your character sheet to say "Dexterity 17" instead of "Dexterity 15" and until then you simply have +1 to "Dexterity-related activities"?

This.
So even with Weapon Finesse your Bracers of Dex +2 do nothing for your to hit till 24 hours have passed.
FYI: Dex boosts that temp boost dex Checks, AC, Ranged hit, Initiative stuff. Nothing else: no Skills, no weapon finesse, etc.
Heck, Even Zen Archers (who later use Wis for hit chance) add Temp Dex to hit till 24 hours pass.

Does temporary Con damage still kill someone if they take Con damage equal to their Constitution, or is it just a Con penalty now so they're totally fine as long as it doesn't last a whole day?

They put in a exception for Con so you still die at 0 Con (otherwise you'd be fine).

[Avoraciopoctules]

I'm thinking about converting LotFP's The God That Crawls or Hammers of the God into Pathfinder adventures, which is probably going to involve some dramatic setting and tone shift in addition to new stats. Probably going to tone down the most egregious dickery while keeping the cool ideas.

Anyone have ideas about stuff I should consider before diving in? Widespread church conspiracies are a major theme in both modules, but I don't think they would be very plausible if the backdrop was something as thoroughly defined as Golarian.

[Koumei]

So even with Weapon Finesse your Bracers of Dex +2 do nothing for your to hit till 24 hours have passed.
FYI: Dex boosts that temp boost dex Checks, AC, Ranged hit, Initiative stuff. Nothing else: no Skills, no weapon finesse, etc.
Heck, Even Zen Archers (who later use Wis for hit chance) add Temp Dex to hit till 24 hours pass.

They put in a exception for Con so you still die at 0 Con (otherwise you'd be fine).

I can't help but feel at this point that chucking the books in a paper shredder then reading the results as you pick them out would give you a more coherent system that made more sense. Never mind the infinite monkeys.

[ishy]

The temporary stat doesn't work as real stats is really stupid when it comes to non-core classes.
Not exactly sure how it works again, but potions / elixers etc aren't spells. Thus when an alchemist takes a -int mutagen, it is only a temporary stat, so doesn't actually affect any of his abilities that work on int.

On top of all the general rules changes comes the errata and FAQ, if you are willing to track those sources. Good example would be the Stealth skill errata in the 6th CRB printing, or the (older) change to Spellcraft where it now takes a week before you can re-try, not a new rank.

Or even worse, the changes between printings that are not listed anywhere.
Example being that they removed the 'reach' line of the eagle in later printings of the Bestiary.
So someone who summons an eagle with an earlier printing will summon an eagle with 0 ft reach, while someone with a later printing will summon one with default reach for its size (5 ft).

[hogarth]

Does temporary Con damage still kill someone if they take Con damage equal to their Constitution, or is it just a Con penalty now so they're totally fine as long as it doesn't last a whole day?

They put in a exception for Con so you still die at 0 Con (otherwise you'd be fine).

If by "fine" you mean "unconscious". Ability damage equal to your stat knocks you out (exception: Con damage).

[Voss]

You're supposed to play it just as 3.5 unless someone suggests making a change that improves things or bringing it in line with the published rules.

And that goes pear-shaped if someone does dig through the PF rules, or if they had no background in 3.5 and started with PF (something more likely as more time goes on).

If that was actually intended, it is pants on head stupid.

[Doom]

Ok, going to be playing in a PF campaign soon. My character has 3 16's, and everything else decent enough.

My class is wizard. I figure I'd appeal to the guys that know best.

It sure seems like Elf + Wizard (maximizing dex and int, the two things wizards need, in order) is the only way to go that makes sense. What's the easy specialization to pick, or are they all equally broken?

If I wanted to go slightly goofy with Halfling wizard, what's my best path there?

Thanks.