How many monsters does a D&D edition need to start with?

[K]

This seems a bit heavy handed, but it doesn't much violate conventions or personal experience. D&D has always tried to have "maneuverability classes" that determine what you can do with different levels of flight. The problem of course, is that the maneurvability rules have always been a hot mess and no one knows how they work. Rules too complicated to use don't see play. The other problem of course, is that the lower grades of maneuverability are such a pain in the ass to even figure out how they are supposed to work that people just skip them and hand out Good and Perfect maneuverability instead.

Now that having been said, I would find it pretty weird if flying characters couldn't attack. I mean, birds fucking attack things and they aren't even first level. Hell, the most basic attack from flight is just dropping stuff on people who aren't flying. And I would think I would be able to let go of a bottle of alchemist's fire no matter how strenuous flapping my wings was.

The convention has been to stat out small animals as deadly threats and think of them as such, but a moment of clarity should probably tell us that birds don't really attack on the scale of a DnD weapon and shouldn't be statted as such or used as support for fliers being allowed to attack. I mean, an Owl's 1d4-3 is still far too much damage for an animal that would need an act of God to actually kill the average person and is actually only dangerous to other small animals.

Oh sure, being attacked by a cat or a bird is super annoying. Some kind of Distraction special attack is completely in order, but actual damage that's only 0.5 average damage less than a Small dagger is absurd.

Once you realize that DnD birds don't really make DnD scale attacks, then "but birds attack" is no longer a reasonable support for letting all low-end fliers have attack options.

As for dropping objects, you can can totally let people drop things and have that be reliably inaccurate. You can just say that someone jerking their body in a violent way like when using low-end flight means that they drop objects in a way that causes those objects to fly off unpredictably because your body is moving unpredictably.

The object totally gets dropped. It just isn't a very good attack unless you are dropping it on an army or into a field and hitting anywhere within 40' of your intended target is good enough.

The convention in DnD has always been to make ranged attacks super-accurate, and I don't think the verisimilitude or game design value has been proved.

[OgreBattle]

Then again, horse archery is really fucking difficult too, if you're shooting at anything smaller than an army and forget to stop when you shoot. Archery in general, real archers who can hit a stationary man at 200' get gold medals at the Olympics. Ah, D&D, shitting on melee fighters since forever.

How would you adjust ranged attacks on foot/horseback/flying for D&D then? My try at it:

range increments are reduced by 50%*
-2 to hit when moving (applies to horseback and flying too)
additional -2 if your mount is running (and the equivalent for flyers)
*thrown stuff stays as it is.
These numbers are just pulled from my butt, I'm not an expert on D&D math.

Oh sure, being attacked by a cat or a bird is super annoying. Some kind of Distraction special attack is completely in order, but actual damage that's only 0.5 average damage less than a Small dagger is absurd.

Then you get into the weird territory where "cat stratch" is more distracting than "hit by an axe"

[Cyberzombie]

Basically this. I think part of the problem is that flying around doesn't make you any weaker in fights against people with bows and does make stronger against enemies who don't have them. Yes, there are horses, but riding around on a horse has actual disadvantages in game that flapping wings mysteriously doesn't have. People flying around should at least be taking mounted archery penalties, and they should probably risk falling when struck. Characters who actually fly while shooting arrows should be rare, as it should usually be more advantageous to fly to a good position, land there, and shoot from there.

This is definitely true, D&D is very lax on flight penalties. If I had to guess why, I would assume it's because screwing over flying archery just hoses the fighter, given the wizard can still toss fireballs from above with no penalty.

You'd have to set up something where it's harder to cast spells while airborne too, otherwise it turns into yet another fighter hosing mechanic.

Another big issue that makes flight very powerful is the fact that there aren't enough ranged powerhouse monsters and way too many melee creatures. Monsters in general are better in melee, so staying out of range is almost always a good thing. That isn't a rules problem though, it's a monster design issue. The game needs more sharpshooter type monsters that are powerful at range but weak in melee combat.

[Username17]

The convention has been to stat out small animals as deadly threats and think of them as such, but a moment of clarity should probably tell us that birds don't really attack on the scale of a DnD weapon and shouldn't be statted as such or used as support for fliers being allowed to attack. I mean, an Owl's 1d4-3 is still far too much damage for an animal that would need an act of God to actually kill the average person and is actually only dangerous to other small animals.

But at this point, you're just arguing by strawmanning absurd examples. Yes, very small animals are very small. Housecats are not particularly dangerous, but the much larger "leopard" is one of humanity's few natural predators. Similarly, birds of the barnowl and blackbird varieties are not plausibly dangerous to man. But when a man loses control of his eagle during a hunting expedition in Kazakhstan, it looks like this:



Bigger things are, in general, more dangerous. In our world today there are flying creatures that are big and dangerous enough to seriously injure or kill a man. In recent history, there were bigger ones still (the seven meter Giant Teratorn and ten meter Quetzalcoatlus being thankfully extinct). Dungeons & Dragons posits a world with flying creatures much bigger and heavier than even our own Earth was capable of putting into the sky.

But regardless, pointing to sparrows and hummingbirds and claiming that therefore dangerous flying animals don't exist is simply ridiculous. The Golden Eagle isn't even the largest and most dangerous predatory bird - just the largest one that crazy Central Asian people train as a hunting beast. Birds large and powerful enough to be a deadly threat to humans certainly exist and have existed in our own world. The D&D landscape is frickin full of them.

And before you try to argue the merits of real life thunderbird attacks or the body mechanics of harpies or some shit, allow me to direct your attention to wasps. Remember that a flying animal doesn't even have to be large and powerful enough to rend you with its talons or crush you in its jaws - it can be a deadly threat for some other reason. Like, a poison stinger perhaps.

Edit: the first link to a picture from the cameraman versus eagle fight didn't work, so I had to get a new one. While doing that, I found eagle versus wolf:


If we posit that wolves are combatants on the scale of a player character (which I cannot imagine a reason why we would not), then eagles should be as well.

-Username17

[ishy]

I'm not sure I agree that the only challenges that gate your capabilities, should be monsters though.

Flight lets you ignore many (potentially) hazardous terrain effects.
And walking through walls at level 1, can really change the nature of the game.

[tussock]

How would you adjust ranged attacks on foot/horseback/flying for D&D then?

I change the whole system, but the rule for 3e play is you tell everyone to be an archer so they can keep up with the spellcasters a bit longer. Archery can be pretty awesome in 2nd edition damage-wise, but in 3rd you grab a couple of feats and it's unstoppable.


If you want to balance melee and missile warriors, the former need massively greater damage outputs and near-imperviousness to missiles. Like they had in real life. Melee weapons are blindingly fast and if you don't have one working at constant counters you are fucked. 5'-steps are just flat-out ludicrous, doing any casting or missile fire anywhere near a swordsman should get you killed.

All sorts of ways to do that; higher action costs to shoot, tiny range increments, reduced damage and only half Str bonus for the heavy stuff. Chuck out all 3e's special defences against melee like defensive casting and the contact-breaking 5' step (allow circling and approaching only). Or more subtle tricks like forcing spellcasting or missile fire to be the first action you take in a round (so you can shoot and move, but not move and shoot, letting melee lock you down a bit better without tying everything up).

[Cyberzombie]

If you want to balance melee and missile warriors, the former need massively greater damage outputs and near-imperviousness to missiles. Like they had in real life. Melee weapons are blindingly fast and if you don't have one working at constant counters you are fucked. 5'-steps are just flat-out ludicrous, doing any casting or missile fire anywhere near a swordsman should get you killed.

All sorts of ways to do that; higher action costs to shoot, tiny range increments, reduced damage and only half Str bonus for the heavy stuff. Chuck out all 3e's special defences against melee like defensive casting and the contact-breaking 5' step (allow circling and approaching only). Or more subtle tricks like forcing spellcasting or missile fire to be the first action you take in a round (so you can shoot and move, but not move and shoot, letting melee lock you down a bit better without tying everything up).

Yeah 3E did everything it could to hose melee. If you wanted to take away caster toys, I'd probably recommend doing something like making melee full attacks into standard actions, and ranged full attack and spellcasting into full actions.

5 ft. step should be a move action similar to 4E, and combat casting should work similar to pathfinder, where it's a lot harder to reliably get a spell off.

That way melee fighters can still 5 ft step, yet you don't have all the craziness of people exploiting frozen time turn-based combat by stepping back and firing a bow while the enemy should be stabbing you in the face.

I thought about applying these rules if I ever ran a pathfinder game. But have yet to get the opportunity.

[RadiantPhoenix]

5 ft. step should be a move action similar to 4E, and combat casting should work similar to pathfinder, where it's a lot harder to reliably get a spell off.

That way melee fighters can still 5 ft step, yet you don't have all the craziness of people exploiting frozen time turn-based combat by stepping back and firing a bow while the enemy should be stabbing you in the face.

Or you could just say that it has to come at the end of your turn.

EDIT: Or just make it provoke an attack of opportunity if you use it to move out of threatened space.

[John Magnum]

How did Pathfinder change up casting in combat? Did they do anything other than change the Concentration DC for casting defensively from 15 + Spell Level to 15 + 2x Spell Level? That would obviously do it, but there might be other changes I don't know about.

[ishy]

Yeah. Concentration is no longer a skill check. It is no your caster level + main casting stat + additional bonuses (like feats etc).

So worse for monsters who usually don't have a maxxed out casting stat and players don't really care.

Paizo also printed feats like step up to deal with 5 ft step.
Yet spells that cause you to auto succeed on concentration checks are still probably a bad choice, since it is still so easy to avoid having to make any.

[K]

But regardless, pointing to sparrows and hummingbirds and claiming that therefore dangerous flying animals don't exist is simply ridiculous. The Golden Eagle isn't even the largest and most dangerous predatory bird - just the largest one that crazy Central Asian people train as a hunting beast. Birds large and powerful enough to be a deadly threat to humans certainly exist and have existed in our own world. The D&D landscape is frickin full of them.

Yes, and bigger and more dangerous birds (fantasy or otherwise) can get the better version of flight where they get to make attacks.

I'm not arguing that a CR 5 manticore shouldn't have flying attacks. I'm saying that eagles and crows who kill people so rarely that google can't even find a single story don't need a version of flight where they get to make attacks while flying, and they don't justify the super-great version of flying that DnD uses being applied to everything. They shouldn't even be statted up in the MM because statting small animals who can't kill you as deadly monsters is dumb.

For fuck's sake, your own picture of wolf vs. eagle and man vs eagle have the eagle one to three feet from the ground. It's not making deadly swoop attacks, but fighting the way you'd expect a landed bird to fight. I'll also bet real cash-bucks that neither the wolf or eagle-wrangler died from those attacks.

Hell, here is a video of a Golden Eagle attacking a child. It certainly looks annoying and painful, but its not like the thing killed anyone. It also seems to have landed to attack.

And wasps? Doesn't that seem like a case that is ripe for a special rule and not statted up as a DnD monster? Isn't the idea of people fighting wasps with great axes a little out of the scope of a heroic fantasy?

[virgil]

For fuck's sake, your own picture of wolf vs. eagle and man vs eagle have the eagle one to three feet from the ground. It's not making deadly swoop attacks, but fighting the way you'd expect a landed bird to fight.

I'd be scared if an eagle was attacking a wolf or man in melee while ten feet from the ground; because that would mean they're carrying long spears or something.

[Username17]

And wasps? Doesn't that seem like a case that is ripe for a special rule and not statted up as a DnD monster?

No. it doesn't.

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[/img]
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[/img]
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[/img]

Golden Eagles are smaller than we are. Small enough to not be much of a threat to a human, and certainly small enough that they wouldn't consider attacking a human for food. In fact, they basically have to be trained as an attack eagle before they go after large animals like humans or wolves at all. However, attack eagles do exist. That's a real thing, and they are willing to attack large creatures (generally with human backup). Larger birds of prey exist, and if Argentinians were as excited by eagle hunting as Kazakhs are, then there would be larger trained attack eagles.

In a fantasy world, there will absolutely be larger attack birds than the ones that exist in our world. There will be trained attack birds that are the size of your house that are kept by titans, but beyond that there will simply be trained combat vultures belonging to gnolls or war eagles possessed by elves. But they will start at the size of the actual attack eagles that actually exist in our actual world. And if you tell the players that attack eagles have to be level 5 or something, the players are going to rightfully call bullshit on you. Because, that's bullshit.

A Kazakh hunter's attack eagle is certainly dangerous, just as an attack dog is. But it's way smaller than a human, and is of only minimal threat to an armored fighter. It is an interesting but very low level threat. It is however, something that absolutely definitely exists in a fantasy world, and telling people you can't have them in the game because you've created some stupid ivory tower air castle about the proper levels for abilities and there is no room for birds in your utopia is just stupid. There's no other word for it. It's no more and no less stupid than 4e's super dodgy gelatinous cubes.

You can make a smooth line of power from raven familiars and Ladyhawke up through war eagles to giant birds and flying lions. You can make a case that there's some arbitrary level below which no winged beast can carry a man, but if you claim there is a level below which no winged beast can cut a man's face you deserve to be laughed out of the room.

-Username17

[Red_Rob]

I thought the argument was that ranged attacks and spells need to be less than perfect to stop flight dominating. If the thing is swooping into sword range you don't have a problem, no?

If the Combat modifiers table included "mounted or flying ranged attack -4" and the Concentration skill specified "Riding a galloping horse or flying" as a DC15 Con. check that would help make level 1 Flight less of a worry.

[Parthenon]

It's almost certainly possible to juggle around the combat assumptions and numbers so that flight is only a different tactic in combat that is roughly as effective as others.

But I think the problem is more out of combat- it's more like the problem with half the party being aquatic or having centaur PCs.

[virgil]

Maneuverability, as used by 3.X, is widely accepted as a failure from complexity. We should only have to keep in mind one limit at a time for quality of flight. Regardless of who gets the restrictions and at what level, there needs to be a set of restrictions for less than perfect flight.

• Action Make controlled flight a standard or even a full-round action.
  Accuracy Make attacks while air-borne on par with attacking from a galloping horse
  Wingspan Your space is larger while flying, restricting movement through tight spaces
  Maneuverability Skip the awful chart and keep it in two states, can you move freely or do you fly like a lightning bolt?
  Stability Concentration checks to maintain flight

All of the above are simple to use on their own. While I can't vouch for quality for the most part, they are much easier to use and by that rubric better than 3.X's flight mechanics. It'd be a bad idea to use all of them at once due to complexity concerns, but at least two should be used to allow for a slider in quality as you advance in level.

[Cyberzombie]

Stability Concentration checks to maintain flight

Flight should never require a bunch of extra dice rolls.

The worst pathfinder change was the fly skill.

[Sashi]

I'm coming to the opinion that balancing things for combat should always start with the parameters of the combat minigame.

If you force players to spend feats and skills to on a combat tactic it doesn't "balance" the tactic, it just penalizes those characters within some entirely separate subsystem.

Precise Shot is probably the worst example of this in action. "Here's an arbitrary -4 penalty that you can instantly buy off by burning a feat slot"

[deaddmwalking]

I'm not convinced that that approach is totally without merit.

Firing a bow from horseback should be more difficult (and potentially more rewarding) than melee combat. Hitting your opponents while avoiding your friends is also very rewarding - letting you kill people while minimizing risk to yourself.

Someone that wants to be effective at archery in toe-to-toe combat is probably going to have to get some 'special training'. And since missile combat has advantages over melee combat, the fact that melee combatants can spend feats to 'get better' can work.

I think the Ranged Feat tree is all kinds of messed up. I don't know why Point Blank Shot is a pre-req for anything else in the chain - particularly Far Shot.

In a sense, a Feat that negates a 'standard penalty' is a generally good thing. It makes sure that anyone can attempt said action, but people with specialized training are better at it.

Power Attack, conversely, is a somewhat bad feat. It would be better if it were a combat option and everyone could do it. Even Inigo Montoya appears to take 'wild, inaccurate swings with the attempt to strike harder' in his fight with the Man in Black.

When a character can't attempt something (full stop) because they don't have a Feat, that's bad. When someone can do something that anyone could do, but do it better, that's usually good.

[Mistborn]

Why don't we just tell the melee-exclusive fighter to go fuck himself rather than jumping through hoops in order to make him not suck. When the party is under siege by harpy archers the Fighter can jolly well pull out a fucking bow.

[Sashi]

It's not the melee exclusive fighter that's the problem, it's the archery-exclusive fighter that causes trouble.

Specifically, the 3.X paradigm in which an archer is expected to spend the majority of his feats to boost RoF and buy off penalties to get an attack action with a damage output relatively equal to some guy using a sword.

Think about what happens when a Rogue, Druid, or Fighter picks up a ranged weapon to fight harpy archers vs. what happens when a Machine Gun Archer does the same.

This results in two Very Bad Things:
1. Any time the Archer doesn't get the benefit of his archery he's just a big sucker because of all the character resources he spent for no benefit. Think 3E when archers have to spend the entire combat taking 5' steps and trading full attacks with some melee beast. Or 4E where the adventuring day pretty much stops once the Fighter runs out of healing surges, no matter how little damage the Warlock took.

2. Any time it's necessary to be a ranged attacker he overshadows the non-ranged specialists so hard they may as well be off playing smash bros. So the MC will avoid these situations whenever possible.

[Kaelik]

And what Mistborn is saying is don't make it so that characters are vastly better when using a specific weapon.

If a fighter can use a bow to the maximum of bow using without blowing a bunch of feats and can use a sword to maximum swording, then he can use a sword whenever he wants, except when he wants to use a bow he can still be appropriate.

[tussock]

@Mistborn: verisimilitude.

Real world archery sucks, and people put their missile weapons down and get out a real weapon before melee starts (spellcasters should too, by the fluff it's a tricky task). So, you know, the Archer can jolly well pull out a fucking sword too.

Even musket armies didn't settle much with muskets, it usually came down to the bayonet charges and cleaning up with cavalry. It's not 'till you get to very modern guns that people actually gave up melee, and it took entrenched and fortified, water-cooled, heavy machineguns in WWI to make that clear to everyone. Even in WWI the night scouts still used hand-made melee weapons in preference to pistols.


As for flying harpy archers, how does that even work? Boimechanics and stuff, it doesn't, the wings get in the way, they should have to land, and that puts them in reach of highly mobile climbers and jumpers like Monks and Rogues at least. Beholders up a bit though, that's a proper ranged missile attack, stable platform and accurate lasers, and the answer is not to stand there and play "what save do I fail first", but to find or make yourself some hard cover before you all die, remembering that beholders are slow and have short range.



Movement at the speed natual fliers go, it's really bad for your aim (the hit rate on plane vs plane gunning is under 1% in good conditions), unless you're flying directly at your target at fairly short range, when you're about to be a valid melee target.

And if we actually allow Wizards to have the equivalent of long-range guided missile strikes along with perfect stealth and flight and missile immunity then obviously no one else can possibly compete with that. So I would recommend not doing that.

Which has all gotten massively off-topic, now, hasn't it.

[Cyberzombie]

In a sense, a Feat that negates a 'standard penalty' is a generally good thing. It makes sure that anyone can attempt said action, but people with specialized training are better at it.

I think it's a terrible thing. The fighter is already super limited and doesn't need to get feat taxed up the ass just so he can disarm or use a bow effectively.

It's why we end up with the melee-only or ranged-only specialist, because we have feat trees that require such investment to be any good at a given style.

In reality, we'd like a fighter that switches between melee and ranged, and the first step to getting that is to eliminate the feat taxes on fighting styles. It'd be like requiring a wizard to take 3 feats before he could use transmutation spells effectively.

[Sashi]

And what Mistborn is saying is don't make it so that characters are vastly better when using a specific weapon.

If a fighter can use a bow to the maximum of bow using without blowing a bunch of feats and can use a sword to maximum swording, then he can use a sword whenever he wants, except when he wants to use a bow he can still be appropriate.

It depends on what you mean by "vastly better". It's actually fine to let melee attackers become closet trolls because people should be scared of being adjacent to a guy with a sword.

Now if you're saying that anyone with a sword should become a closet troll ... I'm OK with that. Though I would prefer something where melee starts out only 50% more damaging than ranged, and then people choose different methods of becoming closet trolls.

And then there aren't "ranged specialists" but instead characters like Rogues and Arcane Archers who use ranged weapons for their actual advantages of safety and targeting capacity.