Playing at war in heaven/Ascended Demons and Fallen Angels

jadagul · Post by **jadagul** » Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:51 am

sigma999 wrote:
Whipstitch wrote:what is it with the denners and beating their heads against language?
Autism. Fairly mild.

It's pretty common among smart people. And nerds. And smart nerds. (And yes, autism spectrum tendencies make it more so).

But most people have this sort of not-necessarily-explicit belief that words have objective, "correct," God-given meanings--whether or not that person actually believes in a god to do the giving. So people get stuck in arguments about what some word "really" means. And in some sense, that's dumb--words are created by humans and they mean whatever the fuck they're used to mean. But I don't want to call it too dumb because it's basically what everyone believed for thousands of years; as I understand the history of philosophy, Wittgenstein is the one who finally cleared a lot of this up, and he was working in the 20th century. (Nietzsche prefigured some of it, though, as did various other people).

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:53 am

Thymos wrote:Disgaea isn't really old mythology.

Monkey faces monsters called demons, but in western mythology views of demons aren't really demons because there's no... satan or angels or shit to make them demons. This is rambling, but basically they're just standard monsters a lot of which would be great in a monster manual but nothing about them screams "demon".

But Christians call them demons and say Chinese and Japanese religions are demon worship. I know some crazy devout Christians who see the Chinese dragon as a "symbol of satan" and don't let their kids do the dragon-boat festival, they have incorporated Chinese mythology into Christian mythology.

The Japanese worship twenty idols that they call kamisu or deities. Kamisu are all human beings, and because the kami who were the first humans pioneered this land, they say that Japan is the land of the kamisu (shinkoku). The Japanese have absolutely no conception of the Creator. They think that the sun and moon are living things. Among the kamisu the sun is preeminent. The sun is the first king. The sect of the kamisu has five laws (taboos). The people who worship the kamisu seek nothing in the next world. They seek only rewards in this world. The kamisu are devils. These devil kamisu enter into people's bodies and rail aloud. Out of fear people worship these devil kamisu, and devil kamisu can even appear in the form of animals.
- Friar Balthazar Gago on Shintoism, 1557

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:57 am

Mask_De_H wrote:DSM, put the paint down and stop arguing semantics.

Oh for fuck's sake. Do you even know what that word means? "Christian demonology is a distinct mythology from Japanese folklore" is a statement that (deliberately) cuts past issues of semantics to address the actual concepts being discussed. It's not a semantic dispute, it is the correct resolution to a semantic dispute - avoiding the problem as much as humanly possible. It is the thing that, once everyone understands, lets us move on and talk about what themes we'd like to borrow from which mythologies and why. If you can't actually wrap your head around the fact that all things called demons are not parts of the same mythology, you are not equipped to take part in this discussion because you think the Judeochristian god created the oni to play tricks on the celts. It's gibberish.

Frank started with the fairly reasonable argument "Judeochristian demonology is stupid, and doesn't work. We should use eastern mythology instead." Someone responded to point out those aren't the same thing in an impressively poorly-worded way. The correct response at this point would have been, "I know. That's why I spent five paragraphs explaining why I wanted to use eastern mythology instead of Judeochristian demonology." Instead, he went with "what on earth could you possibly mean? I see the word 'demon' over here, and I see the word 'demon' over here. Context couldn't possibly change what that word means, could it?" That is an equivocation, and it's the sort of problem that arises from people failing to correctly tackle semantic issues and getting caught up in what words mean over what concepts are being described. Blame thymos for explaining himself poorly, blame Frank for defending himself poorly, whatever. I don't really care.

The takeaway is thymos had a valid point ("wait, I thought one of the goals was to do this with Judeochristian themes and vibes?") and managed to express himself poorly enough that he stepped on a semantic landmine and his point got blown up into quibbles over what demon means.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:37 am

I feel like the best way to do things would be to mix eastern mythology themes and stories while keeping Christian mythologies appearances. Angels have a lot of visual traction and so does Orcus. I think if you have a game with "Demon" on the cover then people that get it won't really have mandates on the story but I do think they will mandate the inclusion of things being red with horns and things being white with wings.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:17 am

DSM, the point to that point is that dealing with straight up Judeo-Christian mythology when you're on the side of Team Demon is fucking stupid. Now the point you think you're making (we have to at least pay lipservice to pop-culture Judeo-Christian mythology) is perfectly valid. Nobody disagrees, hell, nobody was even arguing that. It's everything else you're trying to get across that is unnecessary.

To make a workable game out of the elevator pitch of "demons rebel against God" that doesn't end in a theology argument or getting mushroom stamped by Godcock requires dicking around pretty heavily with the source material. At that point, you either start taking "artistic liberties" or you use a different source material. Japan has given us examples of both in between shows of cute girls doing cute things with tentacle monsters.

There is abso-goddamned-lutely nothing that would stop a game that took the Japanese bricoleur approach to things (or hell, the Ugly Americans approach to things) from feeling suitably angelic/demonic outside of your extremely specific view of such.

You're sidestepping right into a landmine you put down. Stop getting hoist by your own petards, retard and let's try to make something as a group for once.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:18 am

What in the shitfuck? No, really. Your entire post is just a giant list of non-sequiturs directed at me in an argumentative tone. It's fucking confusing. Either you need to read this thread again much, much more carefully or I've completely failed to articulate myself.

This is the entire relevant timeline:

Frank makes a point explaining why Judeochristian themes would suck, and suggests eastern themes instead.
Thymos tries to point out that if Prak was suggesting a game about Judeochristian demonology, then not doing some spin on Judeochristian demonology is obviously not the thing which was suggested. He words this fucking awfully.
Frank likely misunderstands the source of the complaint, and gets caught up arguing what demon means with Thymos.
I make a post clarifying that they are arguing words instead of concepts. (I also explain how to avoid some of the problems Frank outlined while still having Judeochristian roots as opposed to abandoning them. It's actually a fairly common trope.)
For some reason the etymology of demon comes up. I will never know why.
In a twist that would have made for great irony but turned out to just be stupid (seriously, the first time I read your post I thought you were being deliberately and humorously ironic), you told me to stop arguing semantics.

I'm not making definitive statements about what demon should mean to you when you read it. I'm not making prescriptive statements about what themes a game about "demons" has to include. I pointed out that a handful of people were arguing past eachother because the word demon is imprecise and made an effort to separate out the concepts from the words.

I, separately, pointed out you can avoid a lot of Frank's problems without actually abandoning the Judeochristian roots as completely as he suggested. Indeed, Disgaea (one of Frank's examples) actually does steal a bunch of those Judeochristian themes and subvert them in the exact way I described doing, which is what makes it such a great example for him. But there are also western stories that do exactly the same things, so I disagree that Frank's argument means we have to go that far. You can, because Disgaea is awesome, but it's not actually as necessary as he suggests.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:01 am

DSM, you're confused. While Prak has a giant hate boner for Christianity, that's not especially relevant to the thread. Here, I'll quote the thesis statement from the original post:

Prak, Original Post int he thread wrote:The question is, though, what do people actually want from a game where the point is to play demons?

To which the answer is, obviously: "Use a definition of 'demon' where you can actually play them in a game."

The thread isn't "How do I deconstruct Christianity?" It isn't even "How do I make Christian demons playable?" It's "what do people actually want from a game where the point is to play demons?" That's literally exactly the thesis question of the thread. So solid examples of games where the protagonists are already "demons" are very relevant to this thread. Indeed, they are the answer. And the fact that they are all made from an Eastern perspective is highly relevant and highly informative.

Even if you feel that using Judeo-Christian motifs is essentially required in a game about Demons written for a Western audience, you can still pass those motifs through an Eastern cultural lens before you use them. As Ogrebattle pointed out, Western religion has already incorporated all of Eastern religion and vice versa. Mammon the Lord of Greed is actually incorporated into Shinto just as Kali is incorporated into Christianity. Christianity declares that Kali is and always has been a demon that is subservient to Satan, and Shinto proclaims that Mammon is an acquisitive sexy schoolgirl demon who looks like this:

You can simply have all the characters and demon drawings from any religious background you care to name, because all the religions of the world have had to make room in their cosmology for the fact that other religions exist. But if you're making a game, you still have to have a core perspective that is actually conducive to playing a game. And that means that you're going to take some literally unholy mishmash of Shinto, Hinduism, Buddhism, Korean Shamanism, and Taoism as your starting point. And then, if you choose to include demons from Christianity, Islam, or the Cthulhu Mythos, you're going to grab them from the point where they have already been passed through Eastern viewpoints, which means that while Belial has horns and stuff, he's also a bishi redhead in a top hat.

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[/img]
That is a dude.

-Username17

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:48 am

FrankTrollman wrote:
Prak, Original Post int he thread wrote:The question is, though, what do people actually want from a game where the point is to play demons?
To which the answer is, obviously: "Use a definition of 'demon' where you can actually play them in a game."

The thread isn't "How do I deconstruct Christianity?" It isn't even "How do I make Christian demons playable?" It's "what do people actually want from a game where the point is to play demons?" That's literally exactly the thesis question of the thread. So solid examples of games where the protagonists are already "demons" are very relevant to this thread. Indeed, they are the answer. And the fact that they are all made from an Eastern perspective is highly relevant and highly informative.
-Username17

If you want people to get play a game that is about X, you need to create a game that is about X.
If you tell a 'western' audience that your game is about playing demons, you want them to be able to recognise them as demons. And not random monsters (which happen to be called demons in a different culture, otherwise you should call it a game about playing monsters.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:45 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Here, I'll quote the thesis statement from the original post:

There are 350 some words outside of that quote that might provide some context. Or maybe they are a really good beef stew recipe. That said, I don't actually know how attached Prak is to any particular idea or what he wants and he totally did not care for my suggestion that having angels and demons be roughly equally assholish and (justifiably) punching both Michael and Lucifer in the dick didn't seem to fly with him. Clearly my qualifications on the matter are suspect. But I never particularly cared whether or not Prak got his way or not with the way the thread went - again, clarifying Thymos's complaint was not meant to be an endorsement of anything at all, it was meant to be a "hey, that thing he is saying is a meaningful distinction and you are losing that distinction because words."

FrankTrollman wrote:Even if you feel that using Judeo-Christian motifs is essentially required in a game about Demons written for a Western audience, you can still pass those motifs through an Eastern cultural lens before you use them.

That is in fact exactly the point I did not try to make. I didn't cook up that example on page 2 because I thought the game had to have Judeochristian themes, I did so because it solves a considerable number of the problems you listed without the "Eastern cultural lens," and because it looks suspiciously like a number of Western stories that already exist. I am not saying you can't run your demons and angels through a Disgaea-ifier and get coherent outputs, but I am saying you don't have to. In Nomine is honestly older than Disgaea.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:43 pm

DSM, In Nomine assumes you're on team Heaven by default for one, and doesn't really clearly delineate how the cold war doesn't go hot/how demons can get fucking anything done when you're playing as them for another.

Also, thymos's point is meaningless at best and idiotic at worst because what pop culture defines as a demon varies wildly. To get the Western definition of a demon (ignoring the old school definition), we can just paint a person red and give them little horns. Fucking done.

We're fighting over words because your argument only has validity if we fight over words.

Omegonthesane · Post by **Omegonthesane** » Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:34 pm

Mask_De_H wrote:DSM, In Nomine assumes you're on team Heaven by default for one, and doesn't really clearly delineate how the cold war doesn't go hot/how demons can get fucking anything done when you're playing as them for another.

It isn't as blatant or all-pervading about that assumption as you make it sound, and provides playable rules for Team Hell from the word "go"; a few subtle details fucked this up in later sourcebooks, but most of it is easy enough to handwave away. The War doesn't go hot because significant power blocs on both sides would sooner betray their own side than allow it to get hot, including an entire Archangel of Faith whose shtick includes preventing any human from getting any kind of hard evidence of the supernatural on some tortured logic about proof denying faith.

The game does have a number of points that they absolutely refuse to define in canon on the logic that they want their rules to be usable with many different takes on them. Among these is what the fuck God is up to - all the evidence that the rules force upon you is consistent with Him no longer existing when you aren't rolling Divine Interventions.

As for how demons get anything done - God can't or won't join the fun, and if anything I got the impression from Core that the demons were outright winning the Earth Front. I can't remember the details of how they got from "bizarro drug trip version of Christian myths about the Fall" to the status quo at all playable times, but at any time when human civilisation is a thing Team Halo/Horn simply does not have anything like enough firepower to be confident of overwhelming Team Horn/Halo on one front without completely surrendering another.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:09 pm

Mask_De_H wrote:thymos's point is meaningless at best and idiotic at worst because what pop culture defines as a demon varies wildly.

Congratulations, dippest of shits. You are arguing that because the definition of demons means lots of different things at different times in different contexts, you can't use demon to mean something other than what someone else means when they say the same word. Not only is that an actual bullshit pointless semantics argument where you tell people "NO THAT WORD CAN'T MEAN THE THING YOU'RE USING IT TO", it's fucking P -> ~P. "The word has lots of meanings, therefore it can't mean lots of things." It's a self-contradiction with zero statements inbetween for you to get confused about. I do not actually know how to make fun of you for this. People do not normally go out of their way to set themselves up as a ridiculous self-parody, and now that you've done so I am completely out of my element.

Mask_De_H wrote:We're fighting over words because your argument only has validity if we fight over words.

DSM wrote:If you can't actually wrap your head around the fact that all things called demons are not parts of the same mythology, you are not equipped to take part in this discussion because you think the Judeochristian god created the oni to play tricks on the celts. It's gibberish.

Read that again. If you think there are no meaningful distinctions between the various things people call demons, then you necessarily believe that stupid example I cooked up to make fun of you. Because people have called and will continue to call all three of those things (Judeochristian demons, yokai, the fair folk) demons, and each of those things I said about oni is true of demons in one of the other mythologies.

You have seriously somehow managed to end up arguing that we can't say yokai aren't actually Judeochristian demons and don't have the properties of Judeochristian demons. You have gone completely beyond whether yokai should be called demons (which is the pointless semantic landmine Thymos stepped up) and into the crazy land where there are no distinctions between the things people call demons because they're always using the same word (because you apparently have no idea how to tell when semantics arguments stop being about semantics and start touching on real concepts).

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:01 pm

deanruel87 wrote:I feel like the best way to do things would be to mix eastern mythology themes and stories while keeping Christian mythologies appearances. Angels have a lot of visual traction and so does Orcus. I think if you have a game with "Demon" on the cover then people that get it won't really have mandates on the story but I do think they will mandate the inclusion of things being red with horns and things being white with wings.

I think it's important to note that Orcus isn't a Christian demon. Like, at all. He's Roman all the way through. Which of course, is an important point. Most of the things people think of when they think of angels and demons aren't Christian. For fuck's sake, you know what Angels look like in the Bible?

When people are asked to draw an "angel," they draw a Zoroastrian Spenta like 99% of the time. When people draw "the Devil," they draw a Greek God about 99% of the time. They don't normally draw this:

Consider which (if any) of the following you would really find "out of place" in Hell:

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[/img]
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[/img]
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biKjupjpujyhSHJja2CNMtzakEf+JIg+RCUptXrl2a52DKxKGvZlpEkKzSqyrNCCYXg3irr2UFFBcZSlcxonso8gkqwUCjnKuZXfTKrkKiitYvNC9nlSFQWm5MsEtSIKZFWyIuXJHZzoDm/a4+h/0Uy6pAkmAN6yXOzVf3BryBwkf7UtWQ3UxbnnLS83bvI/n0T+z8A2nfV29x56xwUUqQaIAgf26NmVwt/kEewbkpjfDTeeDTHojiog4sFzHji0j2VQnsWvlaQDeLHgtZu0zDHAlrg0tseRj5XL4LERv1TDsXFp9PZeezXR2GyO0ZzCb2ABkgkiwc7iY3LssPtJxZmnKN0mSZMm2+6+PYDHFr/hdxsbtB3cAND6jvpm8T8Ll1xF2h9osI4unK7KJNxxidb7ligBfRqWB70h1aqXv1FNkBo5cT1KyttdkW6sysPAX/8AJo+R7rrx3JMrFjjSvBXr4ZzDlcIPz0O9Sxi7soa1EbTXgEWkFUDywqwmnMQe6QLt5INcQmjRgoVagopR4tKDlRXMurQOCBdhsvZkNWa5FSmKFIm8gAak6DrHwLncEHKmReBuHzx681P+BVtDMZqabmjQdeJV9pUMzJAu246b/wAeiaaxEyq4mg4avnaD69UYrLcDRfb6Tp04dQtKlUDhIP8AeaQTKgOVsqjKqjn9pYXI+R9Lrjkd4S+aV0lfDh4giQsLG7PdSPFu4/g8FixuUCYWxsXamV3NYwUtsVixX0/Ym2fECXQN8alfQaZa6nLSGt+4i/v+V8Q2RjN86L6V2U2oSAD4uEmzZ4BcOpgJtHs9TfOVrjJvLYaeY0g8wuK2ls11F5BBiTBMe8L6hiQ137nvP205gHmW6eZXNbf2T4S7uy0b5cCesCbjqrx3eb/pLHFhFplDc2CRwVqa9jA+ZVcpVHuQVJQK77I6XxLLKBKq9VlXfTXsqKUKs1oVAVobIpkkxqIMTBtJtzss25Nak24XY1MNatjFYoNAytLCWi+eDIdct8RkXd0lEoYrO8eItBMXcXiSTAknSD/m6x/9Lm414e81jgq0qcdUDXOtGnwEj+tn6Wk+w9SumzNc8M1qQeII/wAcwsqqx1M8tzh+f4TQxZOrgOQF/V38JXEVwDclw5vPwLLN6n8akGp7TO8T7FHZtFp4jqP4Sff0vtb6Sgd9TzfS2OinlTGyMUz7h6qzsSze5sHmCsV9Wnw9HEflLB4M3IvyKvknia2hhaYM03f9t/YpJj+Ku6eMoNNkqVpo0TkIO4rsdh44NjNcC8W1/K5JrJprQ2ViYe2VzvsfadmV3VKQIysEWgZj+APdA2lgW5HF9RxsdSAPRsLI7P4trmgHEED7Q5gt6Ez5p7HYWhqWvqHW4e/0nwhcR84xwh0SCZLZB1A0I8vhVpWTXbRg1DC20xYmxiSG2FjxXJUdoPGmb+8l6uOvTNjpHuQ5Wbh9sEmHt89FpyukuonOh1TZQVU1EQAqqs4qkoEiE7gG6wYJygb7GQ6RvEbkowpnD1MskTaDbrH5Wevjc+tGphWtZOZxMAgw3JrpGqPVqtDO8c6DlB8JgzwAiOWqz/1ZcIl0eXxCX2pVd3Yyza5j7QCSemi5eNz23s30Xq4gOeSTJhsC/AaAphmAe8agchr581hkkOvIIMEaXbby0WlQ2i421O617Cf5SxkPEbKfMDMTx/heGw3fvJCbwu1i3n/Cc/8AtDIh1M9RB+VP/Qx6uxQNH+oQ27IM6rbwu16L/qDvT+FpUNoYaPEHeRjruU8qOQr4ANEknldCo4aToPVdXiMXhHG4eY/6m/wp/W4ZginS4/UZ3dOKeVHOjZ5Og9PdeobPg+Kw3z13FblTagjcOixtqY4vNtPc315K7aDY+sIyt3a70XZw5LHFZaOBrQZ/v9srg6TYmJc14ySL/cQPZdPisdX1LqYtqczj7wuP2Zjb3a/yn8LTxGMYf2OPUGPUrFgzdt49ziczs1iOXkNyysLWY3Wb6f3qjbZxgynwxmtw3zYflYLsQZF1vBq7QrgyQLgb/wC9U5s/EZ6fNt/eD5aH1XPvqStTYZMO4ZT8gflb59JTjqqrMqtRTSXRhe29VsrVDZKZkC4N1duIid8iP8+wVCxeDFGjrdoHNmiLkxJOrQ38e6nFuNSk4AXyhov9pB9wISjWpmmICnjF8qyK20yQRlie83mRncHEe0eas/a5M+HVwdrwZkjRN7QwQcJ0PEflZVTCEc1jwjXlVsRjC4jdDQ303ofeKjmkahVVxF2uhEGIPE+qAvJgM2tfUq/6o8Sl5XkwMfqD/tVNVCARWtUHmgkp+kIQWWTtC6DU2bWLB9Z9kTG7U8P1E/A6rNfUAEyPc+krLxVR798DqpORGLxed0yT1QsyqMGeKK3Zrjx9FvBAdzW1s4gU4GpIk9P8/CzqWyDv9/8AC06NOABwVkZtEeFem1VzBT3i0yitok8pTNSohZkAnLzXKz1WEaXzoraqCArtaiGqcEaeqh+AYd0dFaijNQZ1XYw/a71SVXYzh+0Hot9SEw1yj8ARuI8kM4T+wuvKrCmLrkP0xUfpjyXXuotOrQfIJPE4FgmG+5TDXN/pz/SrCmeHunnsEqMqmLoNKQjmqi06Q4I3cjgmJpMyeaZwjL6IrKY4JhjAFoSF6VMLwVRC8rFVQeVXFWVHoBuKpKlyhQf/2Q==[/img]

Because it's important to note that not only are literally none of those things Christian, they are all Greek. Most of Christian imagery is just Greek imagery. Unsurprising when you remember that Christianity is a Greek mystery cult to begin with. The Devil carries a trident because of Poseidon, not because of any biblical passage. There's no reason to use any Christian imagery, or even to pass anything through a Christian lens, because most lay Christians wouldn't recognize an Ophanim if they saw one. Seriously: fucking look up an Ophanim and honestly ask yourself how many Christians you know who would identify that fucking thing as an "angel" if they saw it on the street. I'll wait.

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Are we back yet? Ophanim are fucking weird as shit, and Westerners don't fucking use them in ordinary conversations or their basic folk process. It just doesn't come up. Like, at all. Now ask yourself, or the Christians you know, how many Christians can successfully name the religion which claims that Demons are the ghosts of six fingered giants.

The reality is that Westerners simply aren't that familiar with Christian imagery as relates to the celestial and infernal realms. There are some names here and there, and maybe some basic relationships that people are vaguely aware of, but people in the West are simply much much more familiar with Greek, Zoroastrian, and even Shinto and Buddhist imagery than they are with actual Christian stuff. Christian stuff is fucking crazy, and has very little traction even among actual Christians!

Even when Dante sends people to Hell, he doesn't send them to a Sheol full of gnawing worms and the spirits of fallen Nephilim, he sends them to a Tartarus populated primary with Roman Pagan monsters.

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[/img]
There is not one Christian thing in this picture. Literally every creature and symbol is Greek.

So if you say "Demons gotta be Christian because 78% of Americans are Christian" you're badly missing the point. Americans may be majority Christian, but Christianity's demons are so weird that Americans mostly wouldn't recognize them. When Americans are asked to picture a demon, they almost universally picture monsters from the underworlds of other religions and cultures. Which is unsurprising, because those underworldly monsters are much cooler than the ones that come with actual Christianity. The Angel With The Little Book wears a cloud for a tutu, has a miniature sun for a face and wears a rainbow for a hat, has legs made out of fire, and hands out little books to deserving. There is no way to draw that in a way that isn't stupid looking.

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[/img]
People have tried.

If you wanted to give Westerners exactly the sorts of demons they expect to get, you still wouldn't give them Christian demons. Because they don't expect Christian demons. They expect the awesome monsters and demons of other cultures repackaged slightly and named "demon" rather than whatever name it had in the original language. So "Fury Demons" rather than "Erinyes."

-Username17

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:09 am

http://www.somethingawful.com/comedy-go ... es-cyoa/1/

A game with a Western demon protagonist.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:25 am

FrankTrollman wrote:For fuck's sake, you know what Angels look like in the Bible?

Yeah, Evangelion and Bayonetta are closer to the source material than basically anything else. People are allowed to guess which country spawned them.

Obviously, anime fans will draw a floating d8 or a zebra-striped beach ball when asked to draw an angel. Or they just draw a cute girl. With a club.

fucking look up an Ophanim

Clearly, when god was Not Very Effective against Steel Type (chariots), he made this as a Fire Type to be Super Effective. Pokemon actually explains everything.

But yeah, that's another point to anime fans, and another point that does not go to modern Christians.

Which religion has the giant-ghost demons? I can't name that one, but I now want to.

At any rate, this thread is pointing more and more towards the conclusion that everyone should just play Disgaeagame when they want to play as demons. I hear there's even a pdf which has all the rules for that.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:32 am

So, wait. Frank, are you trying to say I cannot have a game where the protagonists rebel against the oppressively draconian higher power which created them?

Or that I can't have a game where you play evil spirits which possess dead bodies to fight burning wheels?

Because only one of those is the thing I want.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:55 am

I think he's suggesting that wrapping anything in the actual Judeo-Christian 'monster' themes is culturally unrecognizable to everyone, so nothing benefits from that, even a fairly dull and uninspired teenage rebellion fantasy. And yes, the thing you actually want reads like 'Daddy's indifferent, so let's be bullies!'

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:05 am

...the fuck?

No, fuck it, I'm done. You guys can continue arguing about whether angels should look like burning wheels or winged people and what the hell demons even are. I don't even give a shit. We're on the same fucking page, except people (not Frank or Koumei) keep equivocating my gaming desires and dislike for christianity with wanting to play supernatural baby-eating murder-rapists.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:10 am

Yeah, I knew what an Ophanim was, but only because I was both really interested in mythology as a kid and because I went to a private Catholic school with a ridiculously well-funded library. That's why it's always weird when I end up in the "When did you lose hope?" conversation re: my atheism. Because, honestly, I'm not sure what age I was when I put god into the same pile as Santa and the Easter Bunny, but I'm pretty sure that it had something to do with the fact that of all the religions I was reading about, Christianity had the least stuff that would look really bitchin' if painted on the side of a van or Iron Maiden cover.

Well, you know, that and the conversation inevitably ends up in someone feeling condescended to.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:23 am

Prak, I do suggest just going Disgaeagame, it even means you have something ready to go. But "the role of God" is a question that has to be answered if you want to go with Judeo-Christianity, and "what do demons look like?" is an important thing if you want player characters to be demons.

As for your beliefs, here's the problem: Christianity is a force of evil and a force of stupidity, and should be opposed on general grounds. They also chose to make it personal, and so naturally you and I take it personally. But by making that a core tenet of the actual game, I don't think there's a way of not coming across as a 14 year old going "2EDGY4U". And that's the real problem. By declaring "God is a tool, anyone who follows him is the baddies, the demons are the good guys because they're fighting the man" as a part of the game, you're inviting people to make fun of you or dismiss you entirely.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:30 am

Prak_Anima wrote:...the fuck?

I'm not sure what is confusing.

the protagonists rebel against the oppressively draconian higher power which created them

is pretty much explicitly a teenage rebellion fantasy. I can't see anyway it isn't. The indifferent father figure doesn't care, so the kids rebel, steal his car, and sometimes beat up his pets. Or liberate his pets. Or whatever.

You could, alternately do something interesting with factionalism, where the divide between demon agendas and angel agendas is too large to be crossed, but the two camps have their own varied agendas that are close enough to cooperate, but also provide tension in their differences. That has some merit. But by popping Papa-God on top as something that has to rebelled against, it gets simplified down to Daddy issues.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:33 am

However, I would point out that this is just the Den. Even if you totally sold out, blew the pope and made a quality game about fighting Satan, it would still probably get played by like, a half dozen people, tops. May as well just let your freak flag fly.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 3:16 am

Koumei wrote:Prak, I do suggest just going Disgaeagame, it even means you have something ready to go. But "the role of God" is a question that has to be answered if you want to go with Judeo-Christianity, and "what do demons look like?" is an important thing if you want player characters to be demons.

As for your beliefs, here's the problem: Christianity is a force of evil and a force of stupidity, and should be opposed on general grounds. They also chose to make it personal, and so naturally you and I take it personally. But by making that a core tenet of the actual game, I don't think there's a way of not coming across as a 14 year old going "2EDGY4U". And that's the real problem. By declaring "God is a tool, anyone who follows him is the baddies, the demons are the good guys because they're fighting the man" as a part of the game, you're inviting people to make fun of you or dismiss you entirely.

Fair. It's been a shitty week, and I admit to a ton of baggage just in general. The additional baggage which comes from using the label I do doesn't help, and I've been getting shit for that too.

Voss- you may well be correct. I will point out that a whole shit ton of religions have exactly the same "new race of gods rebels against the old" story, Abrahamic religions just say that the old race won. A game in which you play classical antiquity gods fighting the titans, or scandinavian gods fighting giants is just as much "Daddy doesn't love us, so we're going to rip up his favourite chair and draw mustaches on all the people in his books" as a game where you play demons fighting Heaven. The only difference is that one religious tradition is a fuck ton larger and predicated on Dad rounding up his unruly children and putting them in time out before he goes and molests their younger sister.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:14 am

If you wanted to make it more palatable, you could have God be silent and Team Halo be assholes. Think Westboro Baptist Church, except with actual power and a LOT more in the Heavenly Wrath. They could be planning the Apocalypse -because- modern society doesn't have much truck with that old-timey religion, with its prohibitions and the stonings and the curses of destruction and sacrificing oxen and youngest daughters.

You could get more people going along with that.

Alternative backgrounds:

1) The demons lost their shit and rebelled when they found out the plans for humanity and, by extension, themselves. They were never going to be allowed to grow up and become their own masters. Imagine being made to live with and obey your parents, like you're a little child, forever. So the demons are fighting for true free will. It just so happens that winning that would mean winning emancipation from the Will of Heaven for humanity, too.

2) Demons aren't inherently evil/wicked. However, they have been decreed so by the Fellows Upstairs, so they're supposedly -not- allowed out of the Pit. Except they sneak out all the time and have to dodge the border police, you could say. So the PCs could be trying to stay out of the whole Lake of Fire and dodging Team Halo, who wants to kick them in the balls and throw them back in. Notable for defeat not being death here, you've just got to get your way back out. Probably concerned with the PCs trying to carve themselves a territory and a foothold in this world.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:00 am

Prak_Anima wrote:
Voss- you may well be correct. I will point out that a whole shit ton of religions have exactly the same "new race of gods rebels against the old" story, Abrahamic religions just say that the old race won.

Except there isn't a 'new race' of gods. Or even an 'old race' of gods if you accept the current version of the Bible as anything remotely resembling truth (which all Christians are required to do).

What you do have is 'allowable' evil because PappyGod is a dick. Their place by immutable divine plan is to be evil, because Word of God. That they rebelled is also immutable divine plan, because Word of God. Its a horrible and nosensical immutable fact that can't be waved away, unless you dismiss it as utter garbage, which is why people are posting alternate ways of handling the whole thing, including not dealing with the christian god at all. Because under christian cosmology, the only acts of rebellion allowed are the equivalent of wearing ratty t-shirts with rude words and wearing hair overly long. Everything else (whether its baby-raping shit eating or the opposite is sanctioned and mandated by word of god.