What 3.Everything material should I buy in meatspace?

[radthemad4]

Even if they master the specific technology (ie, they learn to manufacture a machine gun) the impact will be fairly limited as long as they aren't also learning the manufacturing methods used on Earth. Handcrafting each individual machine gun the way Renaissance era muskets were produced will result in 10s of guns per year; not the thousands that industrial scale manufacturing might produce. And of course, some technology just may not transfer well. 'Smokeless Powder' is a big technological improvement over 'black powder' and even with knowledge of the differences, they may not be able to create enough to keep the modern weapons supplied appropriately.

Good point. PCs would probably need to take some engineers back with them to initially set things up and help Golarion grok production techniques. People would probably want to check it out if the PC's show them a magic trick or two. My first priority would be to convince Nikola Tesla and give him full financial backing and support in Golarion, though that might turn it into Shadowrun pretty quickly. It would still take many years to significantly alter the setting though, setting up factories and whatnot.

They just made it an exotic weapon because it's primitive (yes, seriously) and thus pcs are unlikely to have training in it. The person who takes the feat "Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Greater Blowgun)" is a fool, because they could just carry poisoned daggers and throw them. Shuriken get a pass from me on this one because you can throw three at once and that might maybe be worth something. Fukumi Bari, while dumb, likewise get a pass because they're just mouth-shuriken.

Yeah if the proficiency thing is kept, they really need a power boost to be worth a feat (in Tome games, they'd need to be worth a scaling feat, which makes most of them not worth it, unless Elothard as a free bonus feat)

They end the adventure path so they don't have to worry about the implications. There's basically no downtime between this and the last module. The last module also gives everyone open-ended favors from a god, which include options to totally transform part of the main setting.

That's pretty cool. It's neat of them to relinquish some control of their setting to players.

Hellboy. Someone should have thrown in a half-fiend Fighter.

The Elric brothers from the first Full Metal Alchemist anime that overtook the manga and made up their own stuff also ended up in Earth. So perhaps two human alchemists (full metal, not pathfinder) as well. Yes, alchemy doesn't work in Earth in that show except portal opening and closing, but screw that shit.

[ishy]

Even if they master the specific technology (ie, they learn to manufacture a machine gun) the impact will be fairly limited as long as they aren't also learning the manufacturing methods used on Earth. Handcrafting each individual machine gun the way Renaissance era muskets were produced will result in 10s of guns per year; not the thousands that industrial scale manufacturing might produce. And of course, some technology just may not transfer well. 'Smokeless Powder' is a big technological improvement over 'black powder' and even with knowledge of the differences, they may not be able to create enough to keep the modern weapons supplied appropriately.

Good point. PCs would probably need to take some engineers back with them to initially set things up and help Golarion grok production techniques. People would probably want to check it out if the PC's show them a magic trick or two.

You got spells for that. Like Abundant Ammunition and Minor Creation etc.

[radthemad4]

At first, I thought this would be impractical as you'd need a large number of casters, and they could probably do more with their time. However, if you can stick combine abundant ammunition and permanency, you've basically got a material dispenser. Is there a way to automate minor creation?

[deaddmwalking]

abundant ammunition is not a valid target for permanency according to the Paizo Reference Document.

Per the rules, though, I don't see why you couldn't have lots of tank shells (as long as you've got a pouch with at least one and one for the material component) and such - I can't see any reason why Earth tech would be considered anything other than 'non-magical'.

I'm curious to see how they'd walk that one back if you posted it on their forums. I'm betting they'd just call you a munchkin.

[RadiantPhoenix]

I haven't read the module, but didn't someone say Rasputin was, like, 18th level?

That means the PCs are almost certainly at least 14th level or so by the end, which means that it's almost certainly not OP for them to have tanks.

Problem solved?

[radthemad4]

http://pastebin.com/rKvjpybU

For some reason my internet connection hates large posts on this site sometimes.

On Opera I get this message: http://pastebin.com/TxWXcgNV

On Chrome, I just get a blank screen.

[codeGlaze]

abundant ammunition is not a valid target for permanency according to the Paizo Reference Document.

Per the rules, though, I don't see why you couldn't have lots of tank shells (as long as you've got a pouch with at least one and one for the material component) and such - I can't see any reason why Earth tech would be considered anything other than 'non-magical'.

I'm curious to see how they'd walk that one back if you posted it on their forums. I'm betting they'd just call you a munchkin.

Why would they have to walk it back instead of rolling with it? Usually, the biggest fans of something are the most critical of the thing, e.g. the detailed Star Wars essays outlining flaws in even the original trilogy such as the Endor Holocaust. Heck, I make fun of Dragon Ball Z all the time and I LOVE that show (on that note, I like that the Time Machine in that show creates a different timeline when used that splits the moment you arrive somewhere(somewhen?), but somehow it can return you to your original timeline as well instead of a stable time loop or the huge back to the future or terminator messes).

I haven't read the module, but didn't someone say Rasputin was, like, 18th level?

That means the PCs are almost certainly at least 14th level or so by the end, which means that it's almost certainly not OP for them to have tanks.

Problem solved?

Actually, I forgot about that post. That raises further questions. Firstly, how is Rasputin a freaking Oracle? IIRC an Oracle is a divine sorcerer, which raises the question of what deity he gets spells from ON EARTH? It probably makes sense in context, but I'm curious as to what that context is. Also, are there other magic users in Earth?

I was actually more concerned about drastic setting alteration than PCs getting overpowered, but now that you mention it, that could be a potential issue for future campaigns.

There you go.

As for Rasputin. The Oracle bit just fits thematically. He claimed to be an oracle-of-sort irl. Claiming he had visions and healing powers from God. So there's that.

[radthemad4]

Thanks. In future, should I go the pastebin route, or split my posts?

http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Rasputin_Must_Die!

Okay, found an article on the Pathfinder wiki. Apparently, he's Baba Yaga's estranged son. That explains it.

[radthemad4]

A review had this to say: "and for concerned GMs, not to worry; the doors on the Dancing Hut are not wide enough for the PCs to bring a Russian tank back to Golarion."

Minor inconvenience. Bags of holding, parts, blueprints, and diplomanced engineers are still fair game I think.

[RadiantPhoenix]

I haven't read the module, but didn't someone say Rasputin was, like, 18th level?

That means the PCs are almost certainly at least 14th level or so by the end, which means that it's almost certainly not OP for them to have tanks.

Problem solved?

Actually, I forgot about that post. That raises further questions. Firstly, how is Rasputin a freaking Oracle? IIRC an Oracle is a divine sorcerer, which raises the question of what deity he gets spells from ON EARTH? It probably makes sense in context, but I'm curious as to what that context is. Also, are there other magic users in Earth?

I was actually more concerned about drastic setting alteration than PCs getting overpowered, but now that you mention it, that could be a potential issue for future campaigns.

(bold mine)

I Googled it. The characters are supposed to be 13th level when the module starts, which means that "rides an attack helicopter" is within the range of level-appropriate abilities.

On setting alteration, the only valid reasons I can think of for Mister Cavern to attempt to stop such things are:

1. It's too much work to keep track of and adapt to such things.
2. The players like the setting the way it is.

Both of which should be dealt with out of game by explaining things to the players.

[radthemad4]

Yeah, that's perfectly understandable. Hmm, could this module be a testing ground for a Pathfinderized d20 Modern?

[Prak]

I'd.... actually be ok with Streetfinder, assuming that they veered away from d20M's big problems:

• One base class per ability score- This was dumb. I mean, really, really dumb. Especially because of the second problem and how it made the Dex Hero better than all the others (and the fact that a Str Hero is basically useless in the age of guns)
• Talent trees- The basic idea of talent trees was not terrible. I like the idea of "here's a table of thematic abilties, some have prereqs, they all fit this class," but d20M's talents all pretty much sucked. I want to say that Paizo could do much better, but Paizo wasn't the company that wrote the article that makes me think the writers of Dragon could do better (see below).
• Too much mundane, not enough "fantasy"- I don't mean sword and sorcery. Crank and The Transporter are violent action power fantasies, but the key thing to them is that there is still an element of fantasy.

Those last two are related. In a Dragon annual back in the early '00s, Dragon did an article on using d20 to emulate various movies/shows/etc. They pointed out that even if you don't have magic, you need something fantastic to keep the game from being "I waste it with my crossbowgun till the heat death of the universe!"

The writers of d20M didn't follow this, and that's one of the reasons it sucked.

Hell, I could probably sit down and write 5 or 6 classes for a modern world that represent different professions. Like "Law Enforcer," "Medic," "Investigator," "Mechanic," "Combatant," (Guy what makes a living being trained to kill fucks-- soldier, underground fighter, hitman, etc) and lets say "Scientist."

In my personal opinion, very few modern people are higher than about third level. Maybe as high as fourth or fifth for that one grizzled bad ass that every city has for a given profession.

So, like, House is maybe a fifth level medic. So level three would represent "Average professional of their field," and fifth would be "THE guy that third levels tell stories about who is the best around."

I'd probably go up to tenth level with tenth level being, basically "SUPER COP!!!" or "SURGEON WHO PERFORMS BATTLEFIELD AMPUTATION WHILE RETURNING FIRE!!!" etc. If you want a gritty realistic modern game, you start at third level (unless you want people playing rookies and med students, etc), and if anyone hits fifth level, they stop gaining xp (or you try to find something for them to do with xp other than leveling), but it's totally possible for you to play a modern game where the tank is basically Transporter Jason Statham because they're a 7th level Combatant.

[radthemad4]

One thing I've been considering to represent the modern world is 2 or 0 HD classes to represent gains in skills and knowledge without any boost to survivability. These could be taken after level 5 or somthing.

[fectin]

You can just give out profession/obscure knowledge ranks like candy. It's not even a thing.
If you're really worried about it, let players buy them with money and downtime.

[RadiantPhoenix]

One thing I've been considering to represent the modern world is 2 or 0 HD classes to represent gains in skills and knowledge without any boost to survivability. These could be taken after level 5 or somthing.

Take E6, add that whenever you gain a new feat, you gain new skill points and increased skill caps as though you'd gone up a level, or whatever it is you do with skills.

[Avoraciopoctules]

The rules for modern stuff in Rasputin Must Die! seem focused on creating a challenge for the high-level PCs. A rifle troop (special rules for groups of well trained/equipped soldiers) has 152 hit points, AC 24, and can make 4 6d10+6 line attacks (intersecting lines don't stack) as a Standard action, 12d6 in a 30-foot burst as a move action, They can also gain a CR point in exchange for equipping a Flamethrower, machine gun, or mortar, which are used as Swift actions.

It'd be kind of hard to make parties of nonmagical modern characters that really compared well to that. I don't foresee signs of a Paizo-written d20 modern clone anytime soon. Though I am feeling kind of enthusiastic about the upcoming pyramid-raiding AP.

[radthemad4]

I was mainly considering that for NPCs, as I have a hard time imagining that any 5th level class with knowledge as a class skill can achieve as much as say, Einstein (assuming no one on Earth is beyond level 5), so NPC classes like Physicist, Programmer, etc. could be 0 HD. Didn't notice this was basically E6, which reflects this aspect pretty well, but increasing the skill caps and getting more skill points seems like a neat idea.

@Avoraciopoctules: Yeah, that's true. Perhaps Modern classes, like the ones Prak suggested could be 5 to 7 levels long and designed to mesh well with the usual fantasy classes, e.g. they would stack with fighter, gunslinger, ranger, rogue, etc. so you have a route of advancement if you like, but you'd need to have some supernatural training or power source.

[Prak]

That's not quite what I was suggesting. I was thinking more 10 level classes which are designed to represent "competent adult" at level three "seasoned expert" at level five, and then go into "Hollywood's idea of the profession" from levels 6-10. So the 10th level Techie really can hack into the FBI database from their smartphone while it looks like they're texting.

[radthemad4]

Yeah level 10 seems plausible via action movie physics. I wonder what beyond 10 could look like with modern classes? Supernatural martial arts ala Crouching Tiger, Kung fu hustle or Shaolin soccer perhaps. Or Matrix style bullet dodging, superpowers or iron man suits. You'd probably need some sort of Urban Fantasy Secret World Masquerade thingy.

Or for more tongue in cheek games you could have supernatural stuff anyway that no one bats an eye at like in Shaolin Soccer.

[OgreBattle]

Yeah level 10 seems plausible via action movie physics. I wonder what beyond 10 could look like with modern classes? Supernatural martial arts ala Crouching Tiger, Kung fu hustle or Shaolin soccer perhaps. Or Matrix style bullet dodging, superpowers or iron man suits. You'd probably need some sort of Urban Fantasy Secret World Masquerade thingy.

Or for more tongue in cheek games you could have supernatural stuff anyway that no one bats an eye at like in Shaolin Soccer.

I imagine level 10+ is "Batman is realistic, that's why he's my favorite superhero" tier

[Aryxbez]

The twist? There's actually no time-travel involved, Earth is just more technologically advanced.

So....Earth actually exists, and Golarion is secretly just a galaxy far away from them? I know Pathfinder Setting has space, and mimics our real world like galaxy if I recall right. I find it odd that a "Modern world" character could be 18th level, or modern soldiers in the double digits (even as swarms). An example of Pathfinder not understanding that character levels = "Power levels" I suppose (I blame their Monk-level balance scheme).

I imagine level 10+ is "Batman is realistic, that's why he's my favorite superhero" tier

I'd imagine ye could play the Dark Knight at around 5th-6th or so, assuming multiple SWAT Takedowns was like a 4-6th level Modern Encounter. I can see JL Batman being the 10th level capstone character.

[radthemad4]

Rasputin is Baba Yaga's estranged son, so he's an alien from Golarion.

What level would Zohan be?

[deaddmwalking]

I find it odd that a "Modern world" character could be 18th level, or modern soldiers in the double digits (even as swarms). An example of Pathfinder not understanding that character levels = "Power levels" I suppose (I blame their Monk-level balance scheme).

Usually when I hear people say a 'real person' couldn't be high level, it's because they don't have the hit points for it. Einstein 'could only be 5th level' because, while he might be our greatest physicist, he could be killed by a single bullet wound.

Per legend, Rasputin does not have that problem. He may have been poisoned (enough to kill 5 men), shot multiple times, clubbed to death, drowned in a frozen river and who knows what else...

While it may not all be true, the story is popular enough to support him as a high level character in the 'real world'.