The Five Cornerstones to Adventuring

[DSMatticus]

#4 shouldn't even be a thing (clearly "Fight Monsters" is also supposed to mean "Fight Monsters and Not Die", for instance)

When K says not die, he actually means lose/get unlucky and not die. You get to become a lich, or discover your family's phoenix blood, or beat death in a game of chess, or whatever - the standard rules of death simply no longer apply to you, and permanently killing you is only possible given a TPK/a macguffin/plot shenanigans. Once SoD's become cheap and ubiquitous, cheating death should become cheap and ubiquitous. Tome is full of abilities like that kicking in around level 10-12.

[Voss]

I get that you have a raging hate boner for fighters, but maybe you should step back and look at what I'm actually asking?

Frank's statement is pretty much equal for a fighter, or a wizard, or rogue, or a druid. If you didn't get something to deal with a situation, you won't be prepared for that situation applies equally to anyone (and is a bit tautological). It's not a statement against fighters like it's intended to be, but in being unprepared for anyone. Which is why I'm questioning it and it's use..

Because your version... isn't true. Just at a basic level: cleric/druid has access to all their spells. At any given level, any particular wizard can grab flight (or whatever spell) without any sort of DM intervention at all. Gaining 2 spells of the wizards choice is a thing that happens. And then scrolls, captured spellbooks, research, etc. But if they wizard wants flight, he can just fucking taking fly. And the fighter gets...well. Sometimes he just gets +1 to hit.



And as a side note for the bizarre pushback on the concept of exotic locales as part of D&D; Cloud Castles have been D&D since the 70s with cloud and storm giants.

[Heisenberg]

Right. If "Flying Griffin Mount, Bitch" was an actual Fighter Class Feature (and why the fuck not?) that you got at the level 7-9 range from the fighter class without sucking the DM's proverbial dick, it'd be a different story.

or maybe realize, Fighter doesnt get any way to fly natively, so don't be a dick by trying to put a fucking castle in the clouds for him to have to travel to?

apples to oranges.

D&D was made to do what D&D was made to do. they fact you want something different, just means you shouldn't have been playing a game like or modeled from D&D in the first place. you only have yourself to blame.

when people grow up and realize this, THEN they can understand any number of pillars or cornerstones or whatever, and pick the RIGHT game to meet their playstyle, rather than bithcing like EVERY game was made jsut for them, and complain when they learn it was not.

who the fuck ever said to put a castle in the sky to begin with when using the D&D Fighter? maybe you should go bitch at them for suggesting it, rather than the game for not providing EVERY possible way to make it happen.

funny games with the D&D Fighter don't have extensive aerial or naval combat rules because well, the game wasnt meant for those things.

Wow, you are like an actual crazy person.

[shadzar]

And as a side note for the bizarre pushback on the concept of exotic locales as part of D&D; Cloud Castles have been D&D since the 70s with cloud and storm giants.

so Gygax et all was just a dick for poitning them in there, whats your point?

not sure if Laputa or Jack or Olympus is the origin of the "dwelling in the sky" used, but dont all those have ways to get their without needing to fly that the author uses plot protection in order to make happen?

Olmpus, Zeus summons you, or you climb the mountain

Jack, you climb the beanstalk

Laputa, you are pulled from the sea and brought to it.

these stories rarely have more than a single person reaching the clouds, so do not really fit in the "D&D" adventuring party means.

so let's turn the concept around and say if the game was having only one player, would the "cloud castle" really be a problem whether it was native to the "class" of the character the player has, or it is was granted by plot the method in which the character reaches it?

it seems the problem wouldn't really be there in the single protagonist case, so the flaw is in either the multi-protagonist approach to such things that were not designed to have multiple protagonists, or in the "playing" of the scene wherein there is some competitiveness between the protagonists. and why would they be competing when they are working towards the same goal, should it really matter HOW they got to the castle as that is just Point A to Point B which is not the POINT of having the Cloud Castle in the first place, is it?

[Wiseman]

Son of a bitch, this is turning into another fighters thread! Let's just finish this right now.

The problem with the fighter isn't that their abilities suck.

The problem with a fighter is that you canwrite abilities that let them have the same task resolution capabilities as casters, but people will start giving you the hairy eye if you call that a "fighter".

So the answer is that the entire concept of "fighter" needs to go.

[K]

So the answer is that the entire concept of "fighter" needs to go.

The funny thing is that writing "Dragon Warrior 1" or "Lord of the Thundercats 1" would solve more problems for low-level warriors than actually writing abilities.

People would honestly have less arguments about whether you should have griffons or artifacts swords available in the setting if you started with more vigorous flavor.

[OgreBattle]

So in existing D&D modules where there's underwater, cloud, and planar adventures how do they deal with access to these places if you don't have a high level magic user in the party?

[shadzar]

So in existing D&D modules where there's underwater, cloud, and planar adventures how do they deal with access to these places if you don't have a high level magic user in the party?

no idea about 3.x, but pre-WotC it was provided by the quest giver, or if you FOUND such a location, you had to get their yourself. odds are if you weren't ready and it was too high a level, you would die, thus the reason it was NOT easily accessible.

[K]

So in existing D&D modules where there's underwater, cloud, and planar adventures how do they deal with access to these places if you don't have a high level magic user in the party?

Most modules include a "if your wizard can't swing it, here is an option" option.

that being said, there are a lot of places that require the right spells. Most planes and places require specific solutions, so a Fire Elemental plane adventure may require the same thing as a volcano adventure even though one requires planar travel too.

At the end of the day, a lot of places matched like that. For example, underwater/Water Plane, Underdark/Earth Plane, Air/Cloud, Fire/volcano, and then any combo of those on another plane.

Shit,running a volcano cemetery encounter on Hades is like four things that need to be handled.

[hogarth]

#4 shouldn't even be a thing (clearly "Fight Monsters" is also supposed to mean "Fight Monsters and Not Die", for instance)

When K says not die, he actually means lose/get unlucky and not die. You get to become a lich, or discover your family's phoenix blood, or beat death in a game of chess, or whatever - the standard rules of death simply no longer apply to you, and permanently killing you is only possible given a TPK/a macguffin/plot shenanigans. Once SoD's become cheap and ubiquitous, cheating death should become cheap and ubiquitous. Tome is full of abilities like that kicking in around level 10-12.

There is no such thing as a guy who is good at fighting but is bad at permanently dying in fights. That's Fighting 101, as far as I'm concerned. I suppose you could breaking "Fighting enemies" into "Killing enemies" and "Not being killed by enemies", but why would you?

If someone or something is throwing around "SoD's", then that falls under either under an enemy to fight or a puzzle to solve.

[Cyberzombie]

So the answer is that the entire concept of "fighter" needs to go.

It's more the case that the concept of the mid and high-level fighter needs to be redefined. People shouldn't be going around thinking Conan or Aragorn are 9th level characters, or that Conan should need some rogue levels because he decided to sneak around once.

Mid and high level fighters need to look like anime badasses.

[zugschef]

So the answer is that the entire concept of "fighter" needs to go.

It's more the case that the concept of the mid and high-level fighter needs to be redefined. People shouldn't be going around thinking Conan or Aragorn are 9th level characters, or that Conan should need some rogue levels because he decided to sneak around once.

Mid and high level fighters need to look like anime badasses.

Welcome to ignore...

It's been 10 years and some people still argue about that shit...

[Voss]

So the answer is that the entire concept of "fighter" needs to go.

It's more the case that the concept of the mid and high-level fighter needs to be redefined. People shouldn't be going around thinking Conan or Aragorn are 9th level characters, or that Conan should need some rogue levels because he decided to sneak around once.

Mid and high level fighters need to look like anime badasses.

Pass. I don't need a character with sword the size of a house or shitty relationships with half a dozen passive-aggressive women. Or a brain-dead 12 year old shouting shitty slogans.

There are plenty of ways to leverage brutal maiming SoDs, tactical chicanery and info-gathering organizations into meaningful abilities. Failing that, there is the demigod and mythical hero route.

I would certainly be fine with reigning in the spellcasters as well, but the idea that sword guys should be tossed out or that relevant abilities can't be written for them is absurd. I don't give a shit if the various shadzars get upset that D&D isn't like its mythical 'perfect form' any more.

[OgreBattle]

Mid and high level fighters need to look like anime badasses.

CuChulainn is my favorite Irish anime, the best episode is definitely the showdown at the river with his childhood friend/foster brother turned fellow student under the sexy warrior woman turned war rival, where CuChulainn reveals the secret technique that was taught to only him on how to use the true power of the Gaea Bolg. Manly tears were shed.

The harem aspects with CuChulainn's sexy teacher, sexy teacher's daughter, sexy teacher's sexy rival, and girl next door all falling for him was uncessary though and distracts from the action.

I've heard good things about Rorrano Ge (ロランの歌) and will be checking that out next.

[DSMatticus]

#4 shouldn't even be a thing (clearly "Fight Monsters" is also supposed to mean "Fight Monsters and Not Die", for instance)

When K says not die, he actually means lose/get unlucky and not die. You get to become a lich, or discover your family's phoenix blood, or beat death in a game of chess, or whatever - the standard rules of death simply no longer apply to you, and permanently killing you is only possible given a TPK/a macguffin/plot shenanigans. Once SoD's become cheap and ubiquitous, cheating death should become cheap and ubiquitous. Tome is full of abilities like that kicking in around level 10-12.

There is no such thing as a guy who is good at fighting but is bad at permanently dying in fights. That's Fighting 101, as far as I'm concerned. I suppose you could breaking "Fighting enemies" into "Killing enemies" and "Not being killed by enemies", but why would you?

If someone or something is throwing around "SoD's", then that falls under either under an enemy to fight or a puzzle to solve.

Color spray is an ability you might get hit with as part of an ordinary level 1 encounter. The consequence of having your combat defenses fail when hit with color spray (i.e. you don't make the save) is that you are out of the game for 3d4+1 rounds. Unless someone takes a deliberate action to murder your character during this period or your party completely loses and team monster decide to finish you all off, in 3d4+1 rounds you are back in the game.

Finger of death is an ability you might get hit with as part of an ordinary level 13 encounter. The consequence of having your combat defenses fail when hit with finger of death is that you are dead and there is no duration on that you just keep being dead. Unless someone has an ability to make you not dead, you will never be back in the game and it is time to reroll your character.

Note that in both circumstances you are failing a saving throw against a level appropriate ability, something you are expected to do because that is what level appropriate ability means. Note that the outcomes for this totally normal thing you are expected to do every now and then range from "out of the fight" to "reroll your character."

At level 13, Bob the Phoenix-Blooded explodes in a cinematic burst of fire everytime he dies and is reborn from the ashes 24 hours later. Now, instead of having to reroll his character when he fails a save against a level appropriate attack, his character is just out of commission for awhile. Exactly like what happened when Bob was level 1.

There are plenty of ways to leverage brutal maiming SoDs, tactical chicanery and info-gathering organizations into meaningful abilities.

Um... what, exactly? What can King Conan do that puts him on the same playing field as flying, teleporting outsiders who can hit him with spells from beyond the reach of mortal weapons? Does it require the DM to take pity on Conan and hand the outsider the idiot ball?

And don't tell me "Orcus should be a kobold." At some point, the opposition has to be conceptually badass, not just bigger numbers attached to the same functionality, and at whatever level that point comes, everyone has to be able to play. I'm all for toning down D&D's craziness to what happens in the 1-12 range, but the fighter is well and truly fucked by then anyway.

[darkmaster]

Pass. I don't need a character with sword the size of a house or shitty relationships with half a dozen passive-aggressive women. Or a brain-dead 12 year old shouting shitty slogans.

You're watching the wrong anime sir. When I think of an anime badass my thoughts go to Kenshin the man who can cut boulders in half with the flat of hi katana. And while Kenshin doesn't go too far beyond wuxia stuff, the most impressive thing he does is create a vacuum by swinging his sword and jump hundreds of feet in the air from a standing position the physics in Ruroni Kenshin are different from the physics of D&D land. In D&D land it's possible to make stone from nothing, and for dragons the size of houses or bigger to fly under their own power just by flapping their wings. Impossible shit goes down in D&D land and frankly it's ignorance and stubbornness that keeps us from letting fighter's pathfind their to the outer planes or throw around sword beams. Because, again, this guy, who is in the name of the game can fly as a completely non-magical feat.

[Kaelik]

frankly it's ignorance and stubbornness that keeps us from letting fighter's pathfind their to the outer planes or throw around sword beams.

No. Bad idiot. It isn't ignorance that causes us to reject the concept of "Fighter" For god sakes, at the very fucking least name your stupid piece of shit class Hero or Adventurer so he can fucking jump over lava pits and shit.

Why are you fucking idiots so goddam wedded to this stupid fucking name that you categorically refuse every attempt to:

1) Give non-combat abilities.
2) Give specific fluff to a class instead of having one class.

Like, even if you have three classes in the entire game, none of them should be Fighter, and they should instead be: Caster, Rogue, and Adventurer/Hero.

But for god sakes I do not understand why in a game that has like 4000 different kinds of magic user, and we can all agree that Wizards shouldn't have all the tricks and should be a distinct limited class, you fuckers still reject the concept of having more than one class that uses a sword and having a specific theme to abilities.

What is so goddam terrible about having to choose from like 10 classes that all have some specific fluff that makes you categorically reject all attempts to have more than one goddam class?

[Voss]

Pass. I don't need a character with sword the size of a house or shitty relationships with half a dozen passive-aggressive women. Or a brain-dead 12 year old shouting shitty slogans.

You're watching the wrong anime sir. When I think of an anime badass my thoughts go to Kenshin

Kenshin hits every single one of the things I just listed. Every. Single. One.
Zanbato-flailing idiot, bitchy dojo girl, bitchy doctor, etc, and shitty little brother of dojo girl.

[darkmaster]

Except for the part where everything you just said is wrong. The giant sword is there for all of two episodes and then it's ditched, the two relationships are fairly complex and quite for a kid's show and while Yhahiko can he a loud mouth he can also be serious and heroic and is barely there as the show goes on. But good job showing your ignorance.

[Kaelik]

while Yhahiko can he a loud mouth he can also be serious and heroic and is barely there as the show goes on. But good job showing your ignorance.

Has anyone ever told you that one excuse is always better than two excuses?

Yahiko stops being annoying, and also he leaves the show. See how either one of those would be a better defense on their own?

[DSMatticus]

I'm pretty sure if you look hard enough (and take some minor liberties) the Iliad hits every single one of the things you listed. It definitely hits the only important one.

Oversized weaponry is something that pretty much every culture that has had weapons (... all of them?) faps to. Ceremonial weapons are almost across the board larger than their functional counterparts because AWESOME, and you know Ajax is supposed to be a badass when Homer describes his shield with "it's a fucking wall, okay? It's like seven shields stacked on top of eachother" (maybe slightly paraphrased). The Epic of Gilgamesh describes the titular character and his bromantic buddy as carrying 120 pound swords. Beowulf uses a sword made by giants for giants. One of King Arthur's vassals uses a sword so big it doubles as a fucking bridge. And of course, the Zweihander is a thing that actually existed and was actually used and taller than many of the people who would have been using them - with ceremonial zweihanders being larger still. There's also some Irish hill-decapitating swords, but I'm not sure if they were actually huge or just fired magical hill-decapitating rainbows (not a joke).

[Voss]

Except for the part where everything you just said is wrong. The giant sword is there for all of two episodes and then it's ditched, the two relationships are fairly complex and quite for a kid's show and while Yhahiko can he a loud mouth he can also be serious and heroic and is barely there as the show goes on. But good job showing your ignorance.

So by 'showing my ignorance', you mean I'm actually completely correct, but you want to maintain that once the viewers suffer through that exact sort of bullshit for multiple episodes, it gets better later?

Thats fine, but personally I tend not to indulge my masochistic streak with kid's TV shows.

[shadzar]

there already is an "anime fighter" type game out there and they call it Pathfinder. obviously, this is NOT what everyone wants, since Bleach d20 and Naruto d20 also exist.

[Previn]

words

I'm not going to engage in you anymore in this thread past this:

I am not defending fighters, at no point have I suggested the GM give them anything. I used 'fighter' because that was the example. I could have used Rogue, or Ranger, or Monk, or Purple because the 3.x class doesn't matter.

I was responding to 'mundanes' not being allow to participate because they didn't have magic which in the examples is stupid.

In D&D 'griffon rider' is just as mundane as 'fighter riding a horse.'

[DSMatticus]

In D&D 'griffon rider' is just as mundane as 'fighter riding a horse.'

No. It isn't. Because griffons are not mundane. That's like arguing that casting a spell off a scroll is just as mundane as 'reading a piece of paper.' But it also has fuck-all to do with anything.

Clerics, druids, and wizards get to put flight down on their character sheet in the 5-7 range. It's an actual ability they write down that their character has and they don't have to ask the DM for shit. If fighters don't get to put down flight on their character sheet at the same level (whether it's through "free griffon" or "anime airwalk" or whatever), then that's fucked up. Those characters are the same level, and they have to be able to go do the same adventures without one dude having to beg the DM first.